Gimballed vs Fixed weapons

[csaba]

In your example you have a weapon that hits for 4 times as much damage or +400%. That is stupid in a game where you have large or slow structures which you can hit 100% of the time. This actually is what dumbfire missiles do in the game but they have a limited ammo or are limited by a(n easily implemented) timer on the AI +travel time. Tweak it a little to 50% hit chance which is about the average for a regular fixed weapon ED player and +200% damage and it is still not suitable for a game like this.

Think how trivial pirating trade ships would be. Again +20/25% works in ED because fights there are 1v1s, last much longer and the shields recharge much slower and there are many countermeasures to gimbaled weapons like chaff and shield cells with different damage types etc. In X4 25% damage wont warrant the use for it and while 200% would by average numbers work, it would break other parts of the game.



Balancing the AI for fixed weapons is also not that easy. Especially since X games AI have very little room for decisions/flight patterns compared to something like ED where they are more dynamic. X fighter AI on an attack run flies in a straight line while ED AI adjusts constantly using FA off on higher difficulty. Of course you can limit weapons to players like mostly in XR (especially in vanilla) but it looks stupid and since this time the player wont have a unique ship it would be even more weird.

Those are example numbers, it could be 100 damage on one, 110 on the other. 250 on a weapon that fires 2x slower, 1000 on torps that fire 8x slower. And yes, a fixed weapon with more power would hit harder on slow/immobile targets. Why would you take a turreted weapon to hit an immobile target? You see, it's all about choices, tactics. The skillful commander that prepares for that battle will have an advantage.

You want to hit the fast targets? turreted weapons are probably better, unless you are a hotshot, and can hit that fly on the wall with an arrow. So skill can come into play again.

I don't want a 1-config-fits-all kind of thing. There is not much gaming there. I want the commander that foresees the battle to feel satisfied when his setups are just perfect, and the hotshot pilot to feel great when his skill can make a huge difference. That's kind of what I would like to see.

And it can be done. It's all in the programming. If a ship is hitting 90% of the time, and it should hit 80%, then you can make it "miss" a few hits. That depends how far they want to go with their "AI", but some checks on the AI would help a lot in the long run... If they just make the AI without any modifiable parameters... Well... Yeah... I'm sure you can see how that would end.

It's a game, everything is under control of the programmers. Or it should be at least...

I thought we were talking about DPS I'm sorry. A weapon that fires 2x slowly and do 250 damage is 125 damage in my eyes so only 25% increase which wont warrant the use for it. It would be a niche weapon used on slow moving targets you can hit 100% the time. Against fighters you would just artificially limit yourself since your actual DPS would be around 60 unless you hit 90% of the time but then you might as well use gimballed without the combat software (as you can now) since you'll barely notice a difference.


For the torpedo example we already have them. If you just want to artificially limit yourself then just buy 1000 V Crushers dirt cheap and try to hit fighters with those.

In X you need at least 200% DPS on your fixed weapons to be comparable to gimbaled ones against fast moving targets.
In ED 25% is not an artificial limit since there are many many more layers to space combat. Silent running, chaff, heat weapons heat sinks, shield cells, hull tanking, FA off, reversing (very limited in X), ramming, very different weapon travel times, different damage types, different bonus effects etc etc. These would be awesome if they would get implemented in X4 but I don't see a chance.


"Missing" with fixed weapons is not the same as "missing" with gimbaled ones since you need to physically turn the ship's nose in the direction. Of course you can make them gimbaled for the AI but than we get weird shots from them that are clearly angled while it shouldn't. It would look cheap and people would hate it.

This game is not about dogfighting strategies. Fighter vs fighter in this game boils down to face your enemy and kill it. If you want something that requires more motor skills play ED if you want to build a working empire play X. I'm 99,99% sure this wont be implemented in this game. There is a reason why ED doesn't have a simulated economy and this game doesn't have a complex fight system.

There will be exceptions like I'm pretty sure the Destroyer sized ships main cannons will be fixed but I don't think those would hit anything smaller than an L sized ship outside hitting the lottery jackpot.

[caleb]

lots of stuff

Those are all sample numbers. They may be matched to whatever the devs want. If 25% extra damage is not enough, make it 30%, 40%, 50%, or whatever is a proper number.

What I want is variety, and skill to make a difference. Whether they are commander skills with setups/tactics, or piloting skills using fixed weapons vs. auto tracking ones.

That's all I want to see. I know X-games are more about economy, and tend to suck at ship fighting (straffing M2s for the win!!), but I would actually like to have a great economy model, and at least a decent ship fighting model.

[Snafu_X3]

Does X games use ballistics?

Why wouldit need to? Gravity isn't simulated & there's no atmospheric combat, so unguided weps are limited purely by shot velocity; guided weps are limited by velocity+range+turn ability. Ballistics doesn't enter into that equation

[Hector0x]

And i thought we'd play X to get rid of dogfighting altogether.
If i'd want to do that i'd play wing commander or ED (both of which have no insane strafing which makes ridiculous fights like Skunk vs Xenon I possible)

[Gazz]

[*] Other
Turreted, gimbaled and fixed guns are 3 different gun items and/or mounts with pros and cons. No UI option/switch necessary.

[Killjaeden]

[*] Other
Turreted, gimbaled and fixed guns are 3 different gun items and/or mounts with pros and cons. No UI option/switch necessary.

But 3 different models/ item icons of each, as well as the stations to produce all the different items. Otherwise you are pulling people out of the game why you need a seperate item for gimbal function, when your 'fixed weapon' already has a functioning gimbal modelled into it. An UI switch is the much less time consuming way there.

[Gazz]

It is less time consuming for the player but adds no gameplay value.

Deciding between a weapon that is easier to aim and one that does more damage... well...

[RodentofDoom]

What do you mean by gimballed?

A fixed weapon fires in the same direction the ship it's mounted to is flying in.

A gimballed weapon has small degree of mobility and can fire 'slightly off' the line of attack.

A turretted weapon has full range of motion and can fire independently from the line of attack.



see
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3834/923 ... ac61_b.jpg
for an example of a gimball mount (it's inbetween the headlights on the main hull)

[Morkonan]

Personally, I'd like to see weapons that have their own options tied to them.

For instance, not every weapon could be configured to work with the ship's "science-fictiony-AI-assisted-target-tracking-computer-whatsits."

Some weapons, like the Super Awesome Blastem-Shoot-em Mk IV can't be configured to use assisted targeting. Instead, they have to be manually aimed. But, the advantage to using them is clear - More boom boom per boom.

Why?

More customization options for the player to choose from and one that rewards players for attaining skillful proficiency with game mechanics. win/win

For those who prefer auto-aim/aim-assist, they wouldn't be hampered. In a tight situation, though, all things equal, the player who could use a few powerful weapons that couldn't be auto-aimed might have an edge in certain engagements.

It wouldn't be game-breaking, since they wouldn't be that much more powerful, but it'd be enough to reward players who learned how to dogfight well, if that was their thing. A player armed with a ship full of manual-aim Uber-Lazors, blasting enemies out of the sky with ease, at range, would be a "player proud of the game recognizing how skilled they were."

For me, I'm a sort of "push a button, kill everybody" kind of player. I don't mind dogfighting and love fighting in big engagements. But, later in the game, I've got too much going on to waste my time in needless grunt work that I can have someone else do for me.

[gbjbaanb]

Personally, I'd like to see weapons that have their own options tied to them.

For instance, not every weapon could be configured to work with the ship's "science-fictiony-AI-assisted-target-tracking-computer-whatsits."

Some weapons, like the Super Awesome Blastem-Shoot-em Mk IV can't be configured to use assisted targeting. Instead, they have to be manually aimed. But, the advantage to using them is clear - More boom boom per boom.

even just for "immersion", the bigger the gun, the more barrel and backing mount is needed, so they're less likely to be moveable. Think the huge capship blasters, they shouldn't be gimballed at all and require the ship to be brought to bear, giving you a reason to mount smaller guns as you can turret them. Maybe even give options like that - not so much mount gun in this turret, but mount this gun in this hardpoint and depending on its size, you can choose to have it gimballed or turreted.

[Killjaeden]

It wouldn't be game-breaking, since they wouldn't be that much more powerful, but it'd be enough to reward players who learned how to dogfight well, if that was their thing. A player armed with a ship full of manual-aim Uber-Lazors, blasting enemies out of the sky with ease, at range, would be a "player proud of the game recognizing how skilled they were."

Designing weapons specifically for players is a bad idea when the rest of the universe has to use the same weapons just as well. Especially now, since the concept of a "playership" (the ship you always fly) is weakened by the use of the transporter. It would suck if you had a ship equipped with non-adjustable weapons, and if it was attacked while you didnt use it, get completely wrecked simply because npc's cant handle those weapons well.

[Gazz]

Yep. In X3 the AI does cheat, using that for all fixed cockpit lasers because they don't even have code to actually lead the target.
And I bet a lot of players don't even know. LOL

[JClosed]

I will not jump into this discussion, because I see both sides of the argument. I will only present my personal view.

I think Auto-Aim should stay as it is with X:Rebirth. I will say though, that (in my humble opinion) there is a huge difference between a Joystick and a Controller (like a XBox controller).

Aiming and shooting with a Joystick without Auto Aim works not that bad for me. For me the movement with a Joystick feels far more natural than with the mouse. I can spiral into an enemy while shooting very accurate at the same time.

However - Using a XBox Controller without Auto-Aim is in my case a sure receipt for disaster. I simply am not "wired" correctly to (fast) aim with that tiny Controller Joystick. If I try to do go into a dogfight without Auto-Aim I simply get slaughtered by even the weakest enemy.

I am simply used to use my whole hand for steering and aiming, while I use my fingers for targeting, firing and launching. And that's only possible with a "real" Joystick.

So - If I want to play with a Controller Auto-Aim is absolutely needed. And that's the reason it must stay (with the option, of course, to turn it off if not needed).

[ezra-r]

I'd have weapons aiming as it is already. Not something that needs fixing.

[ajax34i]

Personally I would like to suggest that you don't hard-code whether weapons are gimbaled or fixed. Specifically, I would like to see some of the fixed weapons become gimbaled if the game is played on the "easier" difficulty levels, and also if there's no joystick etc. (based on the controller used - have weapons become gimbaled for mouse control vs. fixed for joystick control for example).

Ideally, though, maybe you guys could offer "options" as far as the difficulty levels for the game, so we can, for example, choose to have the enemies have more hitpoints or do more damage but also choose the easier gimbaled weapons or less smart combat AI or whatever.

I always use a mod that widens the autoaim angle, too; even 15 degrees is too restrictive for my taste, I prefer about 35 degrees. This is because I suck actually flying and aiming, but still, I enjoy it and would like to play.