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[X3TC Vanilla] Terran Plot Issue - Restarted now.
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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 22:17    Post subject: [X3TC Vanilla] Terran Plot Issue - Restarted now. Reply with quote Print

I seem to have hit a problem with the X3TC (vanilla) Terran plot that I don't know how to fix. I'm at the part where you have to help the Terrans board a Split Elephant, but the Scabbards just flew to the south of the map and completely stopped moving (I assume their marines were killed, but I've no idea). Now the Terran flagship is in an endless battle with the Elephant, with no way to move the mission forward.

This is a DiD game, so reloading is not an option.

I've already restarted due to the Terran Scabbard you gain at the end of the plot ramming the Vidar to death. The very (unique) ship I'd decided to use as my personal one. This was of course after building up a modest empire, with around 300mil credits and a small fleet, including an M2. I'm willing to chalk that up to my own stupidity at least somewhat, but I'm sure you can understand my frustration.

Is there anything I can do here to continue with the plot without having to restart the entire run (yet again)?

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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 23:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

This is what was supposed to happen regarding the Elephant that you put the tracker on (from Spike's walkthrough):

Spoiler
There are three Scabbards trying to board the TL [in the Unknown Sector to the East of Zyarth's Dominion]. You have to protect them until they reach their destination. Forget about the cloud of Split in front of you and let the Terrans take care of them; your priority should be the line of Split ships that the TL launches at you when you get close, so stay with the lead transport.

When the Scabbards get close, they board the Elephant without much happening.
Spoiler


If everything ran according to plan in previously placing the tracking device and locating the TL in the Unknown Sector and you protected the TPs from too much harm, then I think that you may have a broken plot that will need a reload at the very least. I doubt that this element of the plot resets back to an earlier phase when you have gotten so far into it - but I *could* be wrong I suppose.


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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 23:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks for the answer Alan. : )

I left the game running for a little while and performed various tasks, but the plot didn't fix itself so I did indeed just restart. I think the issue is that I wasn't active enough in the battle (even though all three Scabbards were completely unharmed). I had no idea that could cause the plot to completely break but at least I know how to avoid it next time.

Since you're very knowledgeable about the game, do you know of any other parts of the various campaigns I should be particularly careful about?

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SirNukes





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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 00:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Is it possible the first 3 scabbards were killed and replaced? From a glance at the script, it looks like the next plot step triggers when a scabbard gets within 4 km of the Elephant. The first 3 scabbards are given an order to follow the elephant, but replacements only get a move command which may or may not be properly pointed at the elephant's position (it might need a missing position argument to work properly, I am not sure). If they do move to the elephant's position, there is a danger of the elephant having flown too far off by the time they get there. You mention the scabbards flying off to the bottom of the map, which might mean they aren't moving to the elephant to begin with.

If that is the problem, the solution is to somehow lure a scabbard and the elephant together, though I don't know a good way to do that safely without mods. If redoing the mission, avoid the first 3 scabbards getting killed, or patch the script so the replacement scabbards get a follow command.

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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 01:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Hmm, that's interesting. I can't remember seeing the Scabbards die but it's possible. What I did was fly into the sector and immediately fly away from the action towards the south, keeping the battle within radar range so I could see what was happening. I thought I was doing the intelligent DiD thing by staying relatively safe, but obviously didn't factor in that it could break the quest.

It's possible that eventually the Terran flagship would've chased the elephant to the south of the map near the Scabbards, but after waiting with SETA for a good while I guess it was pretty unlikely.

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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Mon, 1. Jan 18, 14:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Well. Two campaigns finished. Several Boreas'. Hundreds of millions of credits. On the last part of the Xenon Hub quest.

Game crashed.

Why do I torture myself with this clearly badly designed game mode?

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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Mon, 1. Jan 18, 16:10    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

A game crash nearly always has a reason that is nothing to do with the play mode. We could investigate for you here if you post the information as per the Sticky Announcement thread.


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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Mon, 1. Jan 18, 17:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The issue I have isn't that the game mode caused the crash. The issue I have is that the game mode is designed such that a single crash means your entire save file is gone.

I get that you're sick of this complaint, I would be too in your position. That doesn't really change how badly designed the game mode is. Crashes can and do happen to everyone. They're a part of gaming life. I'm talking a single crash in several hundred hours of play, that's not unreasonable.

I don't really see how posting information about the crash would change anything, because the issue is not with the crash. The issue is the effect that crash has due to a poorly designed save system.

Just wanted to reply to you because you took the time to reply to me - I don't expect anything to be changed of course. Just venting a little.

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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Mon, 1. Jan 18, 19:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I understand, but knowing that a crash is fatal to a straight DiD game you only have two realistic choices:

1. Play DiD and accept the risk but after minimising the chance of crashes by making sure that your system is as robust and stable as possible (the crash investigation bit).

2. Play ADiD (Almost Dead is Dead) by playing a non-DiD start to the DiD rules but using only end-of-session saving so that you can partially recover from a crash or terminal situation that was not down to your gameplay. (It is a single-player game so you decide to abide strictly by the rules, or not.)


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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 16:32    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jamoid wrote:
I get that you're sick of this complaint, I would be too in your position. That doesn't really change how badly designed the game mode is.

This is not design issue, it's a logical and practical one. Let's go through this step-by-step.

1. The whole (and only) point of DiD mode is to enforce the requirement for the player to accept whatever happens in-game and not be able to revert to an older savegame.
2. If we didn't delete savegames when the game exits unexpectedly then the player could avoid all consequences of DiD by simply killing the game process using Task Manager or powering down the PC.
3. If the player has the discipline not to do those things then they also have the discipline not to reload an older save when they die, so they don't need DiD mode to enforce it for them.
4. If the player doesn't have the discipline then that's what DiD mode is for, and it would be utterly pointless if it didn't actually enforce it.

So yes, we are fully aware of the limitations, but people asked for a mode that enforced it so we provided one. The options Alan gave are logically the only ones available; there is no "better design" that would provide a third option.

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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 20:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sorry for the sass CBJ, I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.

I completely disagree however. I don't really find it logical to include a game mode (with associated Steam achievements no less) that is broken by a single crash in several hundred hours of play. I'm sorry but you cannot and will not ever justify that decision to me. I am essentially being limited/punished by a save system designed to prevent cheating in a *single-player* game. If this broken save system is something that many players specifically asked for, then I'd say it's a great example of one of those times you should not have listened. Countless other games provide a similar ironman mode. Yes, you can game the system by ending process, but if people are willing to do that to savescum in a singleplayer game then let them, it does not (or at least should not) affect my experience.

I want to be punished for my in-game mistakes. I do not want to be punished because the game crashed once in several hundred hours of play.

I'll end the post by saying how much I love Egosoft. I get passionate only because this is my favourite game mode in one of my favourite ever games in a genre that is seriously lacking right now. It's all from a place of love.

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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 20:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Tell the devs your theory on how to code something *simple* into the game that can tell a system crash from an engineered system shutdown AND operate successfully despite the crash or shutdown and I'm sure they'll be interested to discuss it. Very Happy (Just kidding.)

You said in a post (that has since been withdrawn) that you really need the fear of total loss to keep your playing edge and that you may not find the will or self-control to apply strict ADiD rules. If, as you seem to want instead, it were indeed possible to 'accidentally' flick the restart switch at any time yet have your previous session's DiD save survive, then wouldn't that constant fear of total loss still be gone?

Anyway, X3TC DiD is as it is and it won't be changing now. I hope you find some happy medium that makes your continued gameplay fun again. Good luck.


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Jamoid





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PostPosted: Tue, 2. Jan 18, 20:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yeah, I deleted that post because I read it back and it made me cringe. That's the internet for you!

I think the issue for me is that the developers tried to code something like that in the first place. I don't think it's simple - on the contrary I think it's borderline impossible, which is why most developers settle for something that is less than perfect, but also doesn't punish players for a single crash (or power short caused by a storm etc).

The issue I have with CBJ's logic is that it makes assumptions about how other people play and think. It doesn't take into account players like me who would be tempted to reload in a normal game but would never do it in a legitimate ironman mode by cheating via task manager. It also doesn't take into account the growing number of achievement hunters out there, who will see DiD as a very enticing (but broken) challenge.

Don't get me wrong, I don't expect anything to change at this point, but I feel it's something worth bringing up because (to my knowledge) the various starts in X4 have not been implemented yet. I'll be very interested to know if there is a DiD start included and how it's done. Always loved the various playstyles the different starts present you with.

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SirNukes





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PostPosted: Wed, 3. Jan 18, 01:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jamoid wrote:
It also doesn't take into account the growing number of achievement hunters out there, who will see DiD as a very enticing (but broken) challenge.

For my part, I think your complaints are legitimate. In general, being an official game mode with achievements, people are going to assume DiD is a polished mode that will not have game deleting bugs, often to their disappointment. At the very least, the description for it should have a disclaimer about losing your progress on game crashes, power outages, steam problems, internet connection outages, etc.

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CBJ
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PostPosted: Wed, 3. Jan 18, 10:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Once again the deleting of savegames is not a bug, and no amount of "polishing" is going to solve the logical impossibility of enforcing DiD without actually enforcing it. The "achievement hunter" scenario is a prime example of why it has to work the way it does. What is the point of an achievement that requires DiD play if everyone can bypass the difficulty associated with it by simply forcibly quitting the game when anything goes wrong?

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