I just remembered the stockexchange in AP :D

[iforgotmysocks]

Could this be a thing? Hence the dynamic universe it should be possible to create an authentic stockexchange for companies within factions or even cross faction depending on standings that reflect how good or bad companies within factions are doing and where markets can be influenced mirroring what actually happens with said companies in the universe. *drool*

[CBJ]

• Will there be a stock market in X4, like their was in X3:AP?
No, this is an example of the kind of thing Bernd was referring to when he talked about the X3 series having become over-burdened with features.

[iforgotmysocks]

Oh, sorry, i missed that one in the q&a. Thanks.

[Knottypine]

@CBJ
Just out of curiosity, how is this considered an over-burdened feature? I thought this was a fantastic feature in X3 and am really going to miss it in X4. A stock exchange makes sense with a complex in-game economy.

[Sandalpocalypse]

my 2c: It's too open to manipulation. buy stock of a company then source a bunch of goods from it, then sell the stock, then attack the companies transports, then buy stock again and buy a bunch of their goods...et cetera.... you're making money while you're making money, and they'd have to lower the direct rewards of a lot of activities to keep money making balanced with the design goals. Essentially that makes the stock market mandatory.

If you close it off so that it's not open to manipulation, it's just gambling. You don't need a whole stock market feature for gambling.

[Knottypine]

I guess my point is, from the Steam store page:

Most detailed X economy ever

Yet, an economic feature which I feel has its place in the X economy is not going to be present. So calling it the most detailed X economy ever is a bit of a stretch IHMO.

The full excerpt from Steam is as follows:

One of the key selling points of X games has always been the realistic, simulated economy. Wares produced by hundreds of stations and transported by thousands of ships are actually traded by NPCs and prices develop based on this simulated economy. This is the foundation of our living and breathing universe. Now with X4, we have taken another, massive step. For the first time in any X game, all parts of the NPC economy are manufactured from resources. Ships, weapons, upgrades, ammo and even stations. You name it. Everything comes out of the simulated economy.

I believe for it to be a fully simulated economy, the stock exchange is an important feature. I would ask that this feature is reviewed for X4 and maybe at least considered.

[Skeeter]

I think they aren't making it for x4 as wasn't it too easy to spam money off it as few utube vids showing it as a way to get loads of money.

[CorruptUser]

The stock exchange was actually oversimplified, and thus too easy to manipulate. It was based on the amount of goods in a sector. So you could have a TL full of any uncommon or rare product (e.g., nvidium) enter a sector, buy up all the cheap "shares" (or really, futures), have the TL jump out to another sector, sell the now expensive shares in the first sector, buy the cheap shares in the second sector, and have the TL jump back to the first sector...

[iforgotmysocks]

Ofc the stockexchange in AP was oversimplified. But that doesn't mean that a better one fitting a dynamic and more realistic market and industry as of x4 wouldn't be an awesome feature.

[Falcrack]

@CBJ
Just out of curiosity, how is this considered an over-burdened feature? I thought this was a fantastic feature in X3 and am really going to miss it in X4. A stock exchange makes sense with a complex in-game economy.

It was never a real stock market in any sense of the word. The corporations were all fake, there stock prices were random fluctuations based on random number generators and not based on actual performance of these companies or profits. It was incredibly superficial, and I for one am glad it is gone, unless they want to go all in and have a much more realistic version, which would undoubtedly take much longer to develop.

[Alan Phipps]

As far as I know, Egosoft recognised the fine work of a community modder who designed the Stock Exchange as a separate third party X game mod. It evolved and was incorporated into the joint community/dev effort that became X3AP. That was towards the end of a lengthy continuing-development and post-release period for the X2/X3 series.

Sure, the SE implementation could be thought of as oversimplified and could indeed be exploited once the 'rules' were widely known. However, in a single-player game, use (or not) of blatant exploits is exclusively a player choice.

X4 is currently entirely dev-teamwork and there is most likely no spare resource for feature-creep at this stage. Indeed the devs are probably deliberately designing less-cluttered gameplay for initial release as implied by CBJ in the Q&A quoted above.

Later on, more features may be possible (whether dev- and/or community-initiated). That is probably the current situation for a few specific X3 features and aspects that individual players want again in X4 (some even as personal 'must-haves'), as far as I understand it.

[Knottypine]

Thanks for that explanation Alan.

[Nikola515]

Economy in X4 and even XR would be much harder to manipulate with stock exchange do to its large economy size. For example stock exchange in Argon Prime is based on hand full of sectors with undeveloped small economy. Build ore mining complex and turn it off and on and you will influence stock market. Now if you build one in Albion or OL(XR) where economy is much bigger you wouldn't be able to make dent in stock exchange.
I think not many people wore using this feature so they got rid of it. I personally never wasted my time on it..... All thought I would love to see it again. Perhaps someone can mod it ?

[Sirrobert]

There's a reason the very first thing every single major conversion mod for X3AP does is rip out the Stock Exchange.

[csaba]

Economy in X4 and even XR would be much harder to manipulate with stock exchange do to its large economy size. For example stock exchange in Argon Prime is based on hand full of sectors with undeveloped small economy. Build ore mining complex and turn it off and on and you will influence stock market. Now if you build one in Albion or OL(XR) where economy is much bigger you wouldn't be able to make dent in stock exchange.
I think not many people wore using this feature so they got rid of it. I personally never wasted my time on it..... All thought I would love to see it again. Perhaps someone can mod it ?

Yes but XR introduced new economic issues. Fusion Reactors and Scanners/EM-spectrometers come to my mind. These items were scarce regularly blocking shipyard production and you could easily influence an economy targeting the few stations producing them.

Production is also more interdependent. You can literally take out 1 product and halt a whole faction from producing. Microchips and Chemicals were such wares. That is why we had magically respawning stations in XR which we cannot have in a dynamic universe X4 promises.

In short I'd say it would take too much time to balance out a feature like the Stock Exchange resulting in a lot of trial and error. With constantly new problems popping up. Since changing one thing ripples through the whole interdependent economy.

I rather have Egosofts resources focused elsewhere, they probably already have their hands full with a dynamic universe not having it's production collapse in seconds, they shouldn't make it more complicated with an Exchange.

[Sirrobert]

That is why we had magically respawning stations in XR which we cannot have in a dynamic universe X4 promises.

I distinctly remember them making the exact same promise (dynamic economy) for XR

[csaba]

That is why we had magically respawning stations in XR which we cannot have in a dynamic universe X4 promises.

I distinctly remember them making the exact same promise (dynamic economy) for XR

I recall REAL economy, but that's just maybe me. I was still pissed that ships built jumped into oblivion, replacing the old market black hole with a new one.

Yeah I'm kinda expecting that if a faction takes over a territory it will just rebuild the same stations the previous one had there. Or maybe station boarding will be a thing and that solves a whole lot of problems.

Regardless major wars will be crippling for any production so I expect some difference.

[Sirrobert]

Albion Prelude actually has a mod that models real wars and sector take-over pretty well.

Mayhem
Wars between established factions are 'clean' wars, with military fleets duking it out while ignoring the stations and economic ships (TS). Those are the price after all.
And when the attacker wins, those stations shift ownership along with the sector.

Only the Xenon, Pirates, Yaki, and Player fights Dirty Wars (or the governments VS any of those factions), where they wipe the sector clean and build fresh.

[csaba]

Albion Prelude actually has a mod that models real wars and sector take-over pretty well.

Mayhem
Wars between established factions are 'clean' wars, with military fleets duking it out while ignoring the stations and economic ships (TS). Those are the price after all.
And when the attacker wins, those stations shift ownership along with the sector.

Only the Xenon, Pirates, Yaki, and Player fights Dirty Wars (or the governments VS any of those factions), where they wipe the sector clean and build fresh.

This would be okay, however in XR stations had massive defense improvements. I'd like it to be tuned back a bit since a middle sized station could roflstomp a decent sized fleet but removing station weapons completely would seem backwards too me. And if you have well armed stations it would seem weird that they do not partake in a fight.

Not to mention that the main trade ships are TL sized now and some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.

[Sirrobert]

some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.

That is one of the dumbest design decisions I have ever heard.