Xenon Hardware: Ships

[Falcrack]

I think the idea of a cockpit in the far future for a spacecraft may be too limiting. A place to command the ship located near the periphery, which is a weak spot due to the need to use transparent materials in order to create a window to space, seems like adding an unnecessary vulnerability. Most likely my idea of a Xenon cockpit would be something located in the spacecraft interior, with screens that for the commander that are based on cameras with information overlays from the sensors. In fact, to my mind, that's how all combat spacecraft would be.

Although, in my opinion, any real space combat in the far future would be more similar to modern submarine combat, a game of stealth maneuvering and long-range attacks from hundreds, thousands, or hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, there would be no such thing as "dogfighting", there would be no manually aiming turrets, everything would be handled by computers calculating firing trajectories, the job of the captain would be to ensure his craft remained undetected while being able to get an accurate firing solution on the other spacecraft. I don't know, does a submarine need a glass cockpit in the front of the hull to be effective?

Come to think of it, NOBODY does space games that are anywhere near what the reality would be if we we to achieve interstellar flight, even assuming we could achieve faster than light speeds using any form of warp drive.

[Lc4Hunter]

Perhaps being able to own them, but not to fly them. You would have to install a special AGI program and you could just give them orders.

That would be kind of neat and a easier compromise respecting the lore

Respecting the lore?
Quote from X3:AP Xenon I:

Like all other Xenon ships, it still contains a redundant crew deck, theoretically enabling living creatures to pilot it.

crew deck = cockpit?

Where does the lore say Xenon have no cockpit?
There are only 2 X-Games were you could not fly Xenon ships yourself. X-BtF and X:R. Both Games have in common, that you could not fly any other ship yourself.

If respecting the lore is a point then for fly Xenon ships and not against it.

[ external image ]

Thats the point... everything else is a lore-breaker...

[adeine]

https://youtu.be/FuIeKMYaIAk?t=1m38s

not to mention sort of a broken promise.

[mr.WHO]

https://youtu.be/FuIeKMYaIAk?t=1m38s

not to mention sort of a broken promise.

Yup - that is a bit against that promise, but I think that if Egosoft will find some spare time to add Xenon Cokpits/Bridges, then they would fulfill this.
Remember they first said that you won't be able to directly pilot the capital ship, yet they added this to X4.

Keep the hope - recent Egosoft as quite a good amount of goodwill.

[JoeVN09]

The current generation of Xenon ships don't seem to have cockpits. But intentionally or not, there's precedent! We were able to fly them, reverse engineer and build them in X3, and even board them (though it was bastu hard). This suggests that there is at least some kind of occupiable space in all Xenon ships.

I'd like to see Egosoft eventually add Xenon flying capability. Even if it just comes in the form of a high-tech sidecar plastered perfunctorily onto the ship.

[Rei Ayanami]

One of the previous X game immersion plus factors for me was that Xenon ships, like the Kha'ak, would not respond in any way to comms. Not even with spoof messages. It made them 'sinister'.

On the other hand, in X-T i enjoyed contacting the Xenon shipyard and it was responding with the X-T typical man robo voice that was used for all communications with stations
"This is the Xenon shipyard. Please state your request"
"Requesting permission to land"
"Negative".
This was quite immersive because you were able to contact the stations on a very basic level, so xenon stations understood the concepts of contacting and approving and denying landing requests, meaning that it shows that the xenon ships themselves also can communicate, they just straight up ignore you.

But yea, the ships themselves completely ignoring any effort to contact them made them quite mysterious, distant and hostile in a cold emotionless way.

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

This thread and some of the participants confuse me. Why do you need to question the ability to fly xenon ships? If flying a xenon is not your thing, leave it be. There are players who love flying a xenon ship, don't be selfish, leave us have our thing. Capturing mechanics are already there, ship flying mechanics are already there, so just apply it to xenon aswell. For the cockpit, it can't be hard to take a human cockpit, make the monitor screens red, add some wiring on the walls and call it a xenon cockpit.

[spankahontis]

I'd love to see Xenon CPU ships that were actually able to mine basic materials and build ships out of them?

like this mod (sorta).

https://rd.nexusmods.com/xrebirth/mods/373

But also like the game in development, Limit Theory.
They're making ship factories as well.

[Killjaeden]

This thread and some of the participants confuse me. Why do you need to question the ability to fly xenon ships?

I think the thread was created more with the intension to start a discussion pro flying xenon ships, because Egosoft seemed to be swaying more in the direction of not flying them. I assume because of time constraints, and reuse of some older ships that where not created with the extravagantly large interior spaces in mind. (that you need for persons to walk to a seat, have place for a teleporter and place for people to switch seats - even for single-seater ships)

[Crimsonraziel]

I think the thread was created more with the intension to start a discussion pro flying xenon ships, because Egosoft seemed to be swaying more in the direction of not flying them.

Nope this wasn't the intention. People tend to assume their opinion represents the majority. I prefer having data.
But after the response from Linola this thread took another direction.

[ezra-r]

..., partially rogue ship who follows your orders and sometimes just stalls, self destruction with nuclear explosion, or hacking ship getting hacked and converted into a Xenon drone turning against you, so one would think twice and be prepared prepare before trying to capture them.

So... running on iOS, then? Yes, I like the idea of it being a case of "playing with fire" - but the dangers can't be too swingy, as getting uber-shafted by RNG would be a VERY embittering experience (imagine going through all the hassles of capturing a Xenon capital, extricating it from enemy territory, getting it back to your PHQ, only to have it go nuclear, taking itself ie. all your effort AND your PHQ with it...) So, I would say that them "hanging" and needing to be rebooted or something, or sometimes going a bit glitchy with their IFF/targeting, both of which COULD still have serious consequences, if the player gambles by using them in reckless ways (for example, near neutral/friendly NPC ships or stations.) Also, I quite like the idea of it being very risky to try turn them back against Xenons, as they might regain control (either temporarily or permanently, perhaps), and so forth. Basically, there's TONS of ways of making them interesting and intriguing without complex coding or development of additional content.

I'm all for that really, was just throwing ideas. A special race such as the Xenon could be exploited in the story,lore, gameplay, etc.

Extreme example. See how ED exploits thargoids? Not implying that xenon has anything to do with it. But it hooks players interest to no end, see what we will find next, etc. In a single player game mechanics must be different, but staging things to make a certain unaccesible race interesting is a must, or you end up with a game that goes nowhere.

or like astreus perfectly said:

IMO, we should not spoil the Xenon idea in that way, to make them adequate with other (races) ships. That's boring.
I like it to have something different here.
This would bring much more fun to the game than the wish to 'fly every ship I could grab'

[spankahontis]

I'd love to see the Xenon able to create avatars of themselves, mimic the Human Form like the replicators in Stargate.
Be a cool new twist if the Xenon managed to form their own race of bi-pedal machines.

I very much hope not: despite the creepiness factor of the "uncanny valley" (whose effects cannot be easily and adequately reproduced in a game, where our suspension of disbelief counteracts it, in any case), anthropomorphising antagonists pretty much inevitably demystifies them, makes them more familiar, and causes us to (even if subconsciously) project our emotional and motivational biases/assumptions onto them. In short - more human-like Xenon would make them less "scary".

Maybe not go as far as look like us?
Maybe they simply have grown so intelligent that they have studied biologicals to the form that they can communicate like the CPU Ships in Terran Conflict with us, they could be "floating orbs", I don't know about demystifying an antagonist, but the Cylons in Battle Star Galactica and the Chigs in Space Above and Beyond were pretty creepy to me.

I'm all for that really, was just throwing ideas. A special race such as the Xenon could be exploited in the story,lore, gameplay, etc.

Extreme example. See how ED exploits thargoids? Not implying that xenon has anything to do with it. But it hooks players interest to no end, see what we will find next, etc. In a single player game mechanics must be different, but staging things to make a certain unaccesible race interesting is a must, or you end up with a game that goes nowhere.

I suspect from the chatter amongst ED players is the Thargoids are probably going to have their own section of space, their own territory and from that are probably going to be unveiled.

I agree with the mystery behind the faceless enemy, but how far can one run with that before it gets boring?
The Xenon have always been faceless, for good reason that they are machines.
But the Kha'ak are not, if they can build advanced ships, if they have Queens then they are clearly an intelligent species, eventually they are going to grow tired of constant non-stop conflict, war eventually brings weariness and they will break from tradition and seek dialogue with their enemy, I can't see the Kha'ak fighting forever.

The Xenon? Unpredictable, relentless replicating virus that would fit with their mystic perfectly?

Heck there could be entirely different branches of the Xenon family tree that have broken away from other branches of the Xenon and become territorial, maybe on purpose or someone was smart enough to hack the Xenon into splitting away?
Be an interesting plot twist if was not just 1 Xenon Faction, but a bunch of them?

[ezra-r]

[..but how far can one run with that before it gets boring?

That applies to practically everything in a game

The thing is to have choices:
* Choices for starting
* Choices for mid-term
* Choices for the long run.
* Different viable professions.

And then everyone picks whatever they like better/best.

It doesn't matter if its Khaa'k, Xenon, they bring some old acient tech somehow or whatever, the thing is to have some edge adventures for players to exploit if they fancy them.

Or at least, that's how I see gaming

[spankahontis]

[..but how far can one run with that before it gets boring?

That applies to practically everything in a game

The thing is to have choices:
* Choices for starting
* Choices for mid-term
* Choices for the long run.
* Different viable professions.

And then everyone picks whatever they like better/best.

It doesn't matter if its Khaa'k, Xenon, they bring some old acient tech somehow or whatever, the thing is to have some edge adventures for players to exploit if they fancy them.

Or at least, that's how I see gaming

Xenon works like a filler for the economy, best way to keep shipyard sales rolling with Xenon raiding and destroying, ships needing replacing.
I feel like that's their purpose for the X Economy to work otherwise it's just bottlenecks that constant wars with Factions have to deal with.
Getting rid of them would be ridiculous.
The Kha'ak, like I said are mysterious but eventually they will, like all races, get sick of war. More an immersion thing that Kha'ak will eventually want to end the war, Unless they are something else entirely?

[ezra-r]

[..but how far can one run with that before it gets boring?

That applies to practically everything in a game

The thing is to have choices:
* Choices for starting
* Choices for mid-term
* Choices for the long run.
* Different viable professions.

And then everyone picks whatever they like better/best.

It doesn't matter if its Khaa'k, Xenon, they bring some old acient tech somehow or whatever, the thing is to have some edge adventures for players to exploit if they fancy them.

Or at least, that's how I see gaming

Xenon works like a filler for the economy, best way to keep shipyard sales rolling with Xenon raiding and destroying, ships needing replacing.
I feel like that's their purpose for the X Economy to work otherwise it's just bottlenecks that constant wars with Factions have to deal with.
Getting rid of them would be ridiculous.
The Kha'ak, like I said are mysterious but eventually they will, like all races, get sick of war. More an immersion thing that Kha'ak will eventually want to end the war, Unless they are something else entirely?

If Xenon are that, what about Pirates? What's their role? Same thing just more randomly?

[spankahontis]

[..but how far can one run with that before it gets boring?

That applies to practically everything in a game

The thing is to have choices:
* Choices for starting
* Choices for mid-term
* Choices for the long run.
* Different viable professions.

And then everyone picks whatever they like better/best.

It doesn't matter if its Khaa'k, Xenon, they bring some old acient tech somehow or whatever, the thing is to have some edge adventures for players to exploit if they fancy them.

Or at least, that's how I see gaming

Xenon works like a filler for the economy, best way to keep shipyard sales rolling with Xenon raiding and destroying, ships needing replacing.
I feel like that's their purpose for the X Economy to work otherwise it's just bottlenecks that constant wars with Factions have to deal with.
Getting rid of them would be ridiculous.
The Kha'ak, like I said are mysterious but eventually they will, like all races, get sick of war. More an immersion thing that Kha'ak will eventually want to end the war, Unless they are something else entirely?

If Xenon are that, what about Pirates? What's their role? Same thing just more randomly?

Pirates should emerge randomly and have their own unique personalities, unique Factions that randomly appear and have the ability to rise to greatness, like the Nemesis System of Shadow of War.
A Pirate that can grow to greatness or fail and be replaced by another more ambitious Pirate Lord.

It should be a cut-throat route of gameplay to be the Pablo Escabar of Space, stop rival Pirates from taking the spoils of your empire.


Xenon would be different, they think like machines, they act like machines they are relentless machines and they wouldn't be interested in making money illegally like Pirates, they would be destroying everything that belongs to biological lifeforms.
They would be the Earthquakes that topple buildings, they are there to make the market fluctuate through the destruction they cause.
Pirates are involved in the economy.

[ajax34i]

Actually, there are a couple more options than the poll at the start of the thread:

Hacking or certain weapons could disable Xenon ships and/or kill the AI (software), but leave the hull there for players (and NPCs) to analyze or extract tech from. As an example from X-Rebirth, the Xenon HIT/MA's are better than the Argon HIT/MA's, would be worth jury-rigging some of those weapons on a/the player ship(s).

Hacking could enslave the Xenon ship so it obeys orders, but the Xenon are General AI, so they would adapt to the hacking relatively fast. Thus, using a captured Xenon ship would either be temporary (plot purposes), or require upkeep (increasingly costly / sophisticated hacking computers would need to be applied periodically to keep the Xenon in check).

Otherwise, Xenon-related plot effects that I'd like to see:

- attempts and even partial success decoding their comms / encryption

- Xenon ships should be modular like player ships, and the Xenon should periodically re-design their own ships, so that we don't just see standard types (L M N P Q I) but unique / surprising variations. Like that scene in Matrix where the Sentinels come up with a bomb AI to defeat the humans' always using EMPs, just a surprising variation to counter some ship or tactic.

[Crimsonraziel]

Actually, there are a couple more options than the poll at the start of the thread:

Hacking or certain weapons could disable Xenon ships and/or kill the AI (software), but leave the hull there for players (and NPCs) to analyze or extract tech from. As an example from X-Rebirth, the Xenon HIT/MA's are better than the Argon HIT/MA's, would be worth jury-rigging some of those weapons on a/the player ship(s).

Hacking could enslave the Xenon ship so it obeys orders, but the Xenon are General AI, so they would adapt to the hacking relatively fast. Thus, using a captured Xenon ship would either be temporary (plot purposes), or require upkeep (increasingly costly / sophisticated hacking computers would need to be applied periodically to keep the Xenon in check).

Otherwise, Xenon-related plot effects that I'd like to see:

- attempts and even partial success decoding their comms / encryption

- Xenon ships should be modular like player ships, and the Xenon should periodically re-design their own ships, so that we don't just see standard types (L M N P Q I) but unique / surprising variations. Like that scene in Matrix where the Sentinels come up with a bomb AI to defeat the humans' always using EMPs, just a surprising variation to counter some ship or tactic.

The poll is about flying them in person vs just ordering them around vs nothing at all, not about how to get or keep them.

Modular ships are off the table btw.

[patient zero]

I probably wouldn't fly any unless there is an actual Xenon game start. What I do want is to reprogram terra-formers for salvage/mining operations.

[Riccardoman]

I probably wouldn't fly any unless there is an actual Xenon game start. What I do want is to reprogram terra-formers for salvage/mining operations.

Humiliate them essentially.... I like it!
Completely agree with you