EnglishGermanFrenchRussianItalianSpanish
Log inRegister
 
Terran cutlass destroyed my ship OOS, but I am Citizen!
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
mistercat





Joined: 13 Nov 2017
Posts: 18 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Tue, 14. Nov 17, 22:51    Post subject: Terran cutlass destroyed my ship OOS, but I am Citizen! Reply with quote Print

I am doing the Argon start and I ordered a ship (that I bought used and repaired) to go to the shipyard in Omicron Lyrae to be sold. As soon as I jump to OL, I get a message saying my ship was destroyed by a Terran cutlass in Treasure Chest.

This makes no sense. I have never been hostile to the Terrans (currently Citizen) and have good relations with Argon.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Tue, 14. Nov 17, 23:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

War sectors do not care about your reputation. Anything you try to send into those sectors unattended becomes "collateral damage." You have to be in sector with your stuff or otherwise work around it. Fortunes of war.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)

MEDALMEDALMEDAL

Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 16948 on topic
Location: Stonehenge, UK
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Tue, 14. Nov 17, 23:08    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If this is X3AP then you unfortunately sent a ship OOS to a war sector. One of the sides fighting in that sector will target OOS player ships regardless of rep, and the side that does so can change as the race with the upper hand in that war sector changes between the Argons and Terrans. Think of it as civilian and neutral collateral damage in war zones that are dangerous places to be.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Tim.


_________________
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jlehtone



MEDALMEDALMEDAL

Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 16864 on topic
Location: GalNet BBS
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Tue, 14. Nov 17, 23:44    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The Survival Guide sticky is modest about it:
Quote:
Do take care with empire-building in War sectors, though, as you may find yourself and your assets a target for enemy action.

Rolling Eyes

My advice is to use the save slots round-robin so that you have the option to reload multiple past points of your game.


I once went to a War Sector. Not just a peek, but to do things. A lot of them. No place to dock, but I did save often, for caution. To different slots. At some point there was a crash.

Reload latest save => crash on load. Repeatably.
Second to last save: crash on load.
Same thing with every save during my venture; something had corrupted on or before the first save in the War Sector.
The latest intact save was actually an autosave from moment before I launched into War.


On the other hand, you can mark that ship up as a cost of learning and keep trucking on from where you are now. There will be other ships and credits. Teladi


_________________
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 25830 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 00:32    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Alan Phipps wrote:
If this is X3AP then you unfortunately sent a ship OOS to a war sector. One of the sides fighting in that sector will target OOS player ships regardless of rep, and the side that does so can change as the race with the upper hand in that war sector changes between the Argons and Terrans.....


It's not the race with the upper/lower hand. It's the race with which you have the lower rep. Since the OP is playing an Argon start, his Argon rep is almost assuredly higher than his 'Citizen' Terran rep.


_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
NOT an Egosoft employee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RAVEN.myst





Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 2335 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 03:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
Alan Phipps wrote:
If this is X3AP then you unfortunately sent a ship OOS to a war sector. One of the sides fighting in that sector will target OOS player ships regardless of rep, and the side that does so can change as the race with the upper hand in that war sector changes between the Argons and Terrans.....


It's not the race with the upper/lower hand. It's the race with which you have the lower rep. Since the OP is playing an Argon start, his Argon rep is almost assuredly higher than his 'Citizen' Terran rep.

Correct. Even if reputation with both races is in the highest category, the one with the lower rep, even if by 1% (or less, even), will be the one that picks on the player's OoS assets in a War Sector. [*] Which means that if said assets can and do defend themselves, whichever of the factions the player is on the worse terms with, will keep getting worse.


[*] I wonder what would happen if the player were (oh-so-improbably) to have EXACTLY the same reputation with both races...


_________________
-
The unholy one is curiously free of illegal cargo.
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 03:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

"If said assets can and do defend themselves" that defense will be short lived. The assets left in the sector will not be attacked by stuff that is already in there, they actually trigger a spawn of hostiles specifically targeting them. That spawn is based on what assets you have left there, and the first rule of the algorithm seems to be "make sure we spawn enough."


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mistercat





Joined: 13 Nov 2017
Posts: 18 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 04:13    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
"If said assets can and do defend themselves" that defense will be short lived. The assets left in the sector will not be attacked by stuff that is already in there, they actually trigger a spawn of hostiles specifically targeting them. That spawn is based on what assets you have left there, and the first rule of the algorithm seems to be "make sure we spawn enough."


I was wondering why, when I reloaded, that I saw absolutely nothing that looked like the cutlass that destroyed it. Seems unfair. It's one thing to have Terrans attack my assets. It's another to spawn them ONLY OOS and to NEVER attack my personally piloted ship.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RAVEN.myst





Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 2335 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 04:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
"If said assets can and do defend themselves" that defense will be short lived. The assets left in the sector will not be attacked by stuff that is already in there, they actually trigger a spawn of hostiles specifically targeting them. That spawn is based on what assets you have left there, and the first rule of the algorithm seems to be "make sure we spawn enough."

I know. Some time ago, I did extensive testing [*] in order to try to overcome this, looking for some sort of break-even point - I didn't find one. Whatever I had in a war sector, the pursuing forces would always be at least an order of magnitude greater. Even just TMs were causing Yokohamas to spawn! Perhaps I should have said "fight back" rather than "defend themselves" - the latter implies some degree of success Very Happy

[*] I ran an Argon game where my role-play concept was that I would be supplying Omicron Lyrae (the War Trader, I called it) and the war effort there. I had moderate success, or so I thought at first - the going was way too slow, and I had to use Zephyrus TMs as freighters to give them a chance to outrun pursuers (but OoS calculations sometimes defeat even that), and so cargo space was limited, profits were very slow, and attrition was prohibitively high. I still have the save stashed away somewhere, though I think if I continue the experiment it may as well simply be in an established game - I still want to set up a station with heavy lasertower defenses around it, and see what happens - will that summon forth Tyrs and Osakas, or perhaps even Valhallas? If I also park a dozen warships, what sort of response will I trigger? If the algorithm has no upper limit (as I suspect is the case) this could lead to some really large fleets arriving! Very Happy


_________________
-
The unholy one is curiously free of illegal cargo.
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RAVEN.myst





Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 2335 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 04:36    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

mistercat wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote:
"If said assets can and do defend themselves" that defense will be short lived. The assets left in the sector will not be attacked by stuff that is already in there, they actually trigger a spawn of hostiles specifically targeting them. That spawn is based on what assets you have left there, and the first rule of the algorithm seems to be "make sure we spawn enough."


I was wondering why, when I reloaded, that I saw absolutely nothing that looked like the cutlass that destroyed it. Seems unfair. It's one thing to have Terrans attack my assets. It's another to spawn them ONLY OOS and to NEVER attack my personally piloted ship.

The ship that attacked you will still be there - however, its IFF status will "blink" between neutral and hostile, so when you look, you won't see it as often it will have reverted to 'blue' - if you keep watching, it should turn 'red' again...

The whole point of this mechanism is to loosely simulate "collateral casualties" of a war-torn area - basically, the war zone is so dangerous, that passersby often get caught in crossfires and die... Well, at least that's how I interpret the intent of it.


_________________
-
The unholy one is curiously free of illegal cargo.
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirNukes





Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Posts: 35 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 10:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
I still want to set up a station with heavy lasertower defenses around it, and see what happens - will that summon forth Tyrs and Osakas, or perhaps even Valhallas? If I also park a dozen warships, what sort of response will I trigger? If the algorithm has no upper limit (as I suspect is the case) this could lead to some really large fleets arriving! Very Happy


Spawns are based on how many ships you have, categorized by "huge ship", "big ship", "fighter", and other. The enemy ship groups that spawn are keyed off these categories, but are pretty simple, eg. groups of 2 M2s and 2 M7s to kill your huge ships. It only picks Terran or Argon ships, so no Tyrs or Valhallas.

I tried a lasertower defense once, but I can't recall if they counted as fighters (spawns m4s and m3s) or other (spawns m3s and m6s); I think it might have been the former. It sorta worked, though mainly because the lasertowers tanked well enough that local Argon forces would fly over and clean out the pesky Terrans.

The algorithm is capped at 200 player ships checked. The relevant scripts are "!fight.war.protectsector" for making the enemies and "!lib.war.analysesector" for selecting the enemies. An enemy group will be created for each 5 ships you have in a given category, rounded down, +1, with empty categories skipped. Eg. one enemy group if you have 1-4 ships in a category, 2 enemy groups if you have 5-9 ships, etc.

Even if you win the fight, the enemy attack group will immediately respawn and attack again, grinding your forces down if you aren't prepared for that.

In one game I did hold Elysium of Light for the better part of a game day using a couple Boreases. That only worked because the enemy Osakas weren't equipping their weapons properly into turrets, for whatever reason. At one point I poked my nose in to watch the show for a moment before leaving, after which the Osakas properly equipped their turrets and 1-shotted my Boreases in OOS combat. Oops.

(Personally, I think this enemy spawning is the hokiest thing in AP by a good margin, and disabled it in my game.)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RAVEN.myst





Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 2335 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 12:15    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks for once again some detailed technical info on AI behaviour, SirNukesUnderTheHood Smile It gives me a framework should I choose to continue my little experiment at some point (the "groups of up to 5" bit is particularly interesting and potentially useful.)


SirNukes wrote:
Personally, I think this enemy spawning is the hokiest thing in AP by a good margin...

I agree. I understand the (surmised) intention of making the area hazardous for "civilians" and what-not, but it could have been done a lot more elegantly. Such a challenge needs to be beatable, in my opinion, as it's precisely the sort of thing that advanced players would enjoy tackling and overcoming.

My thematic experiment was about viably supplying the Argon side of the war zone with much-needed wares - given the war-torn situation, those factories are pretty undersupplied, and eventually also overstocked with products - ideal for lucrative trade. I managed to train CLS2 pilots in Elysium of Light, but it took very long:
- the ship would undock, resulting in a pursuit wave spawning
- thanks to the short distances between stations, the ship would make it to its destination
- now it's waiting for the locals to deal with the pursuit wave
- once dealt with, the ship waits out the remainder of its current "huddle interval"
- undocks, repeating the whole process...

Also, upon reaching level 3 (Supplier), the Zeph now wants to go to OmLy for fighter drones - and gets eaten en route. Manually providing the drones or not installing the FCS (thus disabling drone usage) allowed it to train to level 4 (jump-capable) without a problem, but even so, once I tried to have it trade in OmLy and Chest (never mind Circle!), it spent most of its time avoiding hostiles and eventually dying... Oops


_________________
-
The unholy one is curiously free of illegal cargo.
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 25830 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 15. Nov 17, 22:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

SirNukes wrote:
...
(Personally, I think this enemy spawning is the hokiest thing in AP by a good margin, and disabled it in my game.)


Can you point me to a link in S&M on how you did this? We don't want to discuss such things in the vanilla forum, after all. Wink


_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
NOT an Egosoft employee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
patient zero





Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 294 on topic
Location: NC, USA
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Thu, 16. Nov 17, 01:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Terran "citizens" are ranked as undesirables just one step above criminals. You're lucky if they give you a warning before they shoot you in the back.


_________________
This is only a virtual reality.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RAVEN.myst





Joined: 20 Jun 2011
Posts: 2335 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Thu, 16. Nov 17, 03:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

patient zero wrote:
Terran "citizens" are ranked as undesirables just one step above criminals. You're lucky if they give you a warning before they shoot you in the back.

Very Happy

Personally, I found that particular relation designation to be... "silly", let's just call it (I was thinking a much stronger word!) After all, citizenship is something that is usually rather hard to acquire, and yet with Terran you can be "citizen" having never been there and claiming no ancestry, and being of a different race? And this from supposedly insular, xenophobic, tight-bordered faction... Whoever designed those designation didn't put a *whole* lot of thought into some of them... Razz


_________________
-
The unholy one is curiously free of illegal cargo.
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
Control Panel
Login Data
The time now is Sun, 19. Nov 17, 06:57

All times are GMT + 2 Hours


Board Security

Copyright © EGOSOFT 1989-2017
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Template created by Avatar & BurnIt!
Debug: page generation = 0.73853 seconds, sql queries = 29