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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Tue, 25. Jul 17, 19:32    Post subject: X3AP war is good? Reply with quote Print

Yes. I was quite at ease with the red sectors. Then a websearch (for something else) did land on a wiki page. A plot walkthrough. No big deal, except it had some disturbing text:
Quote:
Kills in the warzones have a 0.001x Race Rank modifier and a 20x War Points bonus if done in the player ship

First, I have no idea where that data comes from.
Second, I'm not sure I read it right.

I have been on the red sectors. I may have decommissioned some enemies for the purpose of becoming notorious. Now it seems that if I had slaughtered civilians elsewhere, I would have accumulated hate thousandfold. Are the warlods truly so careless, to send thousands to their deaths like it was a loss of mere couple lives?

Not fair. When I do something naughty, I want to be known for it, no matter where I do the deed. Twisted Evil

That coin has an another side too. Do I have to kill thousand to gain appreciation of the allies that elsewere a single kill will yield?

I'm sorry, for if both are true, then it is the blue sectors where I shall seek reputation -- both good and bad. That is called "saving lives". Let the nameless feast in the official fields of war that have no glory.


There are those "War Points" too. If they are manyfold in war sectors, then they surely are less outside. Why should we care? Why not maximize "the score"? In Teladi words only a fool wins a war, but the wise sells weapons while both sides still fight at even odds.

That actually relates to the websearch. The war I see seems to have "advanced" to a stage where the Valhallas are hiding. There used to be some before, but not for a while. It would be most embarrasing, if my modest quest for personal fame has scared those lumbering beasts.


Ahh well, restoring the balance of war is probably trivial: kill some more?


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Tue, 25. Jul 17, 20:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Hmmm, it seems to me that regarding the "war points", the notable thing is "in the player ship" ie. non-"delegated" kills (ie. not drones, LTs, fighters, or other player-owned but not player-controlled assets.) If this is truly the case, then perhaps it actually IS possible to do a "harmless" playthrough in X3AP - until now, I had slaughtered bunches of Terran ships as a Commonwealther during the "Aid the War Effort" phase, to no avail, but if the 20X multiplier means what it seems to, then it may take some 40-50 M3 kills to get through that "with clean hands", and I'm pretty sure my patience ran out before reaching such a number (I reckon I probably made it to around 20-30 kills in total, most of them M5s and M4s, I suspect.)

So, thank you for drawing my attention to this - it gives me something definite to test in my next plauthrough. (If this does work, a 'harmless' all the way game in AP will still be fiendishly difficult compared to one in X3TC, because of the "capture a Xenon L" mission - though I'm already formulating ideas...)


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Tue, 25. Jul 17, 22:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If you do follow the link, you will see a further detail that ought to assist you in your quest.


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Wed, 26. Jul 17, 07:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
If you do follow the link, you will see a further detail that ought to assist you in your quest.


Right, I see so - thanks again. If all this does mean that "delegated" kills actually do accrue points, then that other factor may somewhat mitigate the extra time taken, especially if using drones (really low hull values...) I'll be trying this out really soon Smile


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Fri, 1. Sep 17, 00:05    Post subject: Re: X3AP war is good? Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
The war I see seems to have "advanced" to a stage where the Valhallas are hiding. There used to be some before, but not for a while. It would be most embarrasing, if my modest quest for personal fame has scared those lumbering beasts.

All praise the Almighty RNG! The tide of war has turned. Perhaps it was a simple matter of time. Perhaps RNG. Perhaps the fact that I have left the war pretty much alone and taken my extracurricular activities mainly to Neptunus.

Twice I've got a word from a relative of a victim of a Cartel that I've brought to swift justice. A word that Valhallas are on the run. Just one each time, in Asteroid Belt. Twice I've taken a Special Task Force to action. Twice many (presumably) brave Terrans died before I did reach the behemoth. Twice I've paid through nose for the Teladi for a paint job. (PTNI has that very essential beacon.)


Such victories are costly. An economic weakness has manifested itself. I have a Forge. Small one. For personal use. I had its fruits in store. Then, a while ago, I did pull that Huntington Maneuver. The mow down showdown at oh-two-three. While I prefer Pointy Photons, there were some hammering too. That alone was not a problem.

The Xenon are numerous. There were plenty. More than enough. Some did slip through my nets and ventured into blue space. I was forced to reroute the Xenon Hub to protect both parties. The thing is that the Hub had previously fused Argon Prime and Omicron Lyrae Argon clusters into single stock exchange area. Area that was suffciently abundant to fuel my Forge.

Now clusters again separate, the Cahoona sources have diminished and the Forge is starving. The "personal use" has bloated a bit.

Yes, my Build-fu and Trade-fu are weak.

Particularly in the Terran space, war or no war. Their RRF eats my missiles at alarming rate. I could, of course, reroute the Hub, but I'm not quite done yet. Not with the Xenon. Besides, of the current trespassers in my Hub one Q has already volunteered to join my fleet (at a cost of boatload of missiles and many Marines).


Commonwealth did push into Jupiter once again. Grapevine had it that ATF has Jump Beacons loaded to Odin and Woden in Jupiter. A very limited time offer that one cannot pass. But getting to Jupiter just to make an offer is not so trivial. Bring a host through Asteroid Belt and warbands will be on you. Pull them via Neptunus and the offer will expire.

What to do?

Load the last missiles and best Marines into Cobra and go solo. Sparingly. Very sparingly.

What the intel did not mention was that there were 2 Odin, 3 Woden, Tyr, couple Osaka, Tokyo, the regulatory RRF, etc, not to mention that the Commonwealth push did put some of those ships in jeopardy.

The ARNG was on nice mood and the Woden of interest was at the edge of the fleet. Nevertheless, pulling it separate was a lost cause. The best I could do was a sharp stab and teleportation of surviving Marines back to Cobra. No time to evacuate the ship. No ammo to keep it out of harn's way.

It seems that Jump Beacon is rather resilient cargo. I think it did survive on all "simulated drops". Getting more will be easier.

Time to build. Time to learn the Way of the Fleet.


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synctrance





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PostPosted: Sat, 16. Sep 17, 10:41    Post subject: Re: X3AP war is good? Reply with quote Print

Quote:
Kills in the warzones have a 0.001x Race Rank modifier and a 20x War Points bonus if done in the player ship


Thats a good find indeed. For Terran rep repair I was thinking of routing Xenon through Terran space using Heretic-Ateroid gate, but might need to rethink that.

But what about regular sectors, border sectors and core sectors? You do get a warning message to leave sector (when in negative standing) in core sectors. As well as RRF behavior is different. Might there be a modifier for those as well?


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Sat, 16. Sep 17, 17:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

No idea. I'd guess: no.


I've been eyeing Megnir-Segaris (with Menelaus-X597 or similar). The X023 is then the closest Xenon SY, should something happen in X597 & co. Only two "foreign" sectors (Segaris and Hub) to cross ...


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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Sat, 16. Sep 17, 20:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Without testing I wouldn't take this on faith. However it does seem like I am not as hated by the Terrans as I would expect to be, so it does seem plausible.


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PostPosted: Sun, 17. Sep 17, 01:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
Without testing I wouldn't take this on faith.

I do agree. Here are two^H^H four observations:

I did enable Script Editor and extra info within. Then I checked my exact reputation on Terran Moon SY. (@ -646293 points)

1. Take Cobra, jump into Asteroid Belt (warzone) and Missile Barrage a Tyr that was there. One or two fighters died to my flak.
2. Jump into Neptune. No M2 in sight, so call in my M2 to lure al RRF Osaka in. Again, Hammer the M2.

Loss of reputation in Asteroid Belt: 810
Loss of reputation in Neptune: 810

Possibilities:
  1. RNG has strong influence
  2. Missile kills are not entitled to the 0.001 modifier.
  3. Neptune has same rules as war sectors
  4. RRF has special rules.


Plan B: Jump to both locations with Acinonyx and shoot one M6 Katana with guns.
Result: On both cases the rep loss was 300 points.

That seems to rule out some possibilities, but there is one more:
  • When you are in good terms and kill, the rep loss is a percentage of your current rep points. When you are already in the negative (like I am), the rep loss is a fixed sum.

Perhaps the 0.001 affects only the percentage, i.e. when you are shooting "friends"?


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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Sun, 17. Sep 17, 01:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I have to say that the rep loss being exactly the same on both occasions indicates there is no RNG in play. I don't recall ever hearing that RNG applies to rep loss/gain anyway.

I've also never seen anything about a percentage. Every ship has a fixed point value, AFAIK.

Two runs may not be absolutely definitive, but I'd say this test is a strong indicator that no such "war zone free kill zone" exists.

This is one time when I wish I hadn't done so much rooting around on websites. I KNOW that somewhere along the way I ran across a ship database that included a reputation value for every ship but I have no idea where that was. It doesn't seem to be on any of the pages i normally refer to.


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Sun, 17. Sep 17, 12:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
I've also never seen anything about a percentage. Every ship has a fixed point value, AFAIK.

Yes and no.

Back in X3R, fud did some research:
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=1992280#1992280
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=1993412#1993412
You have probably seen the fud's X3R table in Apricotslice's Handbook.

The X3TC/AP have some numbers tweaked. At least killing a TL/M2/M1 of a friend drops you to -1000, not -1250 as it did in X3R.

May I point out that you did respond to my thread https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=393245
where one part of the percentage was evident? Razz


It seems that there are 2*2 cases:
Code:
                 Friendly  Enemy
Reputation gain  fixed     fraction
Reputation loss  fraction  fixed

... that each ship class has two values in a table: W (fixed point value) and K (percentage)

If you have positive reputation and you kill, then you will
Code:
lose: newrep = oldrep * (1-K)
gain: newrep = oldrep + W

If you have negative reputation and you kill, then you will
Code:
lose: newrep = oldrep - W
gain: newrep = oldrep * (1-K)


Killing a Paranid (positive status) TL did drop my Paranid rep to -1000, but the gain from sector owners, Yaki (negative status) was 0.5*oldrep. That contradicts the "fraction hypothesis", but TL/M1/M2 must have exception there. The observed "always down to -1000" contradicts "fixed point hypothesis" too.


I'm friendly with Argon, so I will test with that side too. Trickier, for I have trade in Argon space that adds "background noise" to reputation.


[EDIT]
  • Shot Argon Centaur in CBNW. Argon rep did drop from 433799 into 425104. 8695 points (2%).
  • Shot Centaur in Elysium of Light. Argon rep did drop from 433789 into 425094. 8695 points (2%).

Still no sign of special warzone reputation. Embarassed

We do know that Terrans are evil aliens that care for nobody, but a "fixed point value difference" of 300 vs 8000 for a M6 would still be quite extreme, would it not?


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