Modular Station Building

[DaMuncha]

I like all the stations I've seen in the X games so far. I like the unique station designs from the various races in X1-3 with the terrans having huge white circular stations in X3 like rounc city blocks, or the Square like stations which can be hard to navigate into the dock. Then there was factories and power plants with sprawling arms of solar arrays.

In X Rebirth the stations were huge with alot of detail with moving parts and visible factory lines. and attached shield generators and turrets etc. Then they had modules attached for living areas, bars, info hubs, and command centers. The solar plants had huge sprawling arms covered in solar arrays, and the ship engineering stations had mechanical arms and machine bays for building new ships.

I watched the latest 1 hour long video with Berned. At the start he shows off the modular station building and Im a little concerned now. They showed the placement of modules on a small station. It looked like they were just one piece modules ala Living Quarters, Docking Bay, Chip Fab, and it had to fit one one square with one of the stations just looking like a bunch of orange boxes all jammed together. I dont want that,

I dont want the game to look like all the stations had to fit into a small cube. I loved what we got in previous X games with weird mangled looking solar arrays or large city like stations with civilian traffic flowing all over them. Having to fit a player station in a cube with only a single module for each part of the station does not look appealing to me.

What are your thoughts on the new station building system?

https://youtu.be/XeYbb0hf10U?t=6m4s

[Ezarkal]

My two cents:

While I share your fear, there are quite a few factors to consider that could change the end result for better or for worse.

As you mentioned, a station made solely of various 1x1x1 cubes that you connect together in 3D lacks a bit of appeal as compared to the sprawling megacities of XR. That being said, there are a lot of things to consider in terms of limits of free station expansion and also in terms of what could be done to skid around these limits.

Consider the metalwork fab from XR. Those long refined metal production modules are looking pretty sharp, but at the same time they must be a royal pain in the ass to accommodate when it comes to totally free building. I foresee a lot of situations where module geometry would simply clash, prevent access to docking ports, etc. So they have to put some kind of limits, or at the very least some kind of rules to module geometry, positioning and connection points. Hence the "cubic" approach that was shown, I guess.

That being said, don't forget that in a way, XR's station modules are also boxes in their own way. Nicely shaped boxes to be sure, but each modules still occupy a definite volume of space where other stuff will not be built.
Now inside that space, the module can be shaped however they see fit to make them. Moreover, there's no reason why all those modules would all have to be 1x1x1 "boxes". Appartment and logistic modules could be small, yet some production modules could be bigger with plenty of wonky shapes. (3x2x1, "L" shaped, donut shaped, have moving parts, etc.)

I think it's only a matter of having a proper space and some connection points for each modules so there's no geometry conflicts. Starting from that, there should be plenty of ways to make some pretty cool stuff.

So I see clearly what you fear, but I think we should wait to see more on what will be implemented before panicking. Stations in XR were so nice I can't imagine them giving us only little cubes to play with.

[Morkonan]

I haven't seen the portion of the vid in question. However,

In X3TC/AP, station "complexes" were "modular." Modules of different types were linked by tubes. The modules, themselves, were very detailed. The tubes connect individually to one of several accessible points on the "module" according to their proximity and angle.

Aaaand, it's a "meta game" portion of gameplay to construct complexes that look good and don't have connector tubes that look like a bowl of spaghetti being electrocuted to death. Player complexes are an important part of the player's gameplay experience and they don't look "bad" even with repetitive parts, since those parts are pretty geometrically interesting and present challenges for complex-construction-play. In short - It's A Good Thing ™.

IF that "meta game" isn't negatively impacted by whatever new modules there are, then it won't be a problem. But, if its opportunity for creativity and "puzzle play" is eliminated or reduced to "tying boxes together", then it's A Bad Thing ™

There are mods that eliminate or reduce the complexity or even the need for complex construction play. There are technical reasons, lag issues, hit-box problems and pathing issues and the like that gave rise to those mods as well as some players just not liking that sort of game activity. For myself, I really do enjoy spending a lot of time constructing a complex, so would be concerned if that sort of "creative gameplay" was negatively effected.

[BigBANGtheory]

I think the main things for me are :

1. we keep the advances and gains we saw in XR to station designs, specifically the way they animated according to their role such as processing materials.

2. station defenses are varied and have a role to play

3. we at some point have a home base (player HQ) with unique attributes that make it worth while to own and be valuable

4. the AI potentially sees my stations as targets, but they must find them first as much as the player has to find NPC owned stations

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

By the time I gave up playing X3 I personally I hated building complexes.

I hated connecting asteroids and I hated the mess that resulted.

I could never be bothered to orientate the stations so that they connected cleanly.

I hated the fact that the different stations could "rub" together and destroy the stations.

Etc.... etc.... etc.

So no for some it was not a great experience.

Whereas in Rebirth the Stations components are actually constructed in front of you, by drones. These individual components were more interesting and the resulting stations a lot better looking in my opinion.

They had a lot of moving parts that you could actually fly in amongst.

So now the focus in X4 will be finding the information on station components and learning how to combine them to produce mega-complexes.

Maybe we will all find something interesting to do out of this.

[Morkonan]

By the time I gave up playing X3 I personally I hated building complexes.

OK, let's see if we can "fix" that and make it enjoyable for you. That's what a new version of the game should do as one of its goals, right?

What if there was a "Construction Planner?" What if you could use it to design your own station complex, keeping in the element of player creativity and a diversity of options, so that, once designed, you could order this station to be built? And, let's just say to make player-construction, "manual", still part of gameplay, you'd contract a "Construction Company" to build the station for you, costing something like an extra 10% in cost or something like that.

That way, players who don't like messing with the "fiddly bits" of this particular meta-game wouldn't be forced to. The contractor, and there could be several different ones out there, for roleplaying reasons, would build the station over time and send you an alert when it was done. If you went to where the station was being construted, you'd see one of the "On-Site" manager ships with a company logo on it. Over time, you'd see TLs move into the area and place station bits. There'd be some drones flying around, presumably connecting bits together, and a small security force of a flight of three "company security craft" to protect the workers.

How does that sound?

..They had a lot of moving parts that you could actually fly in amongst..

I never played XR. But, when I saw the detail that Egosoft was putting into those stations, I was impressed. But, then..

How much time did you spend in the game, as a portion of your total gameplay, watching these bits move around?

Sure, I can see how they could be entertaining. I can picture myself parking near one and absentmindedly watching it as I went over my "paperwork" in planning routes, giving orders, getting logistics squared away and such, but it wouldn't necessarily be a primary focus for me.

So now the focus in X4 will be finding the information on station components and learning how to combine them to produce mega-complexes.

Maybe we will all find something interesting to do out of this.

I enjoyed doing that as well. I also enjoyed combining several different production chains into one station to make the best use of resources and location in terms of logistics and transport. (Not a huge deal with Jump Dries, but it was nice to add such imaginative needs into the roleplaying experience.)

But, with complex planners, which are inevitable, there's only a one-time need for information. After that, you don't need anything else if you don't also need to manually construct the station or to actually design how it will be constructed.

In other words, if "building" a complex/station only consists of figuring out what to put in it and where it will be placed, then a good portion of gameplay time and creativity will be taken out of the game for some. Some may see that as a blessing, but eventually quite a few would miss being able to tweak their stations or "brag" about the complexes they built, themselves. Posting screenpics of personally constructed stations was pretty common at one time.

IOW - I think Egosoft can satisfy both "needs" of players. They can, through an extra cost savings, reward players who want to spend the time doing it themselves while still rewarding players who want the station built for them, by providing them with additional NPC interaction and the pleasure of "pressing a button and ordering a bunch of stuff to happen while watching it all unfold."

How does that sound as a compromise position? As a fan, would you like those options?

[Vandragorax]

I don't know where you got the idea that stations will be limited to being built in squares from. There's nothing in that video that suggests as such imo.

What it has been described as is being "like Lego" where we have connection points to clip station parts together. It looks like one part would have these connection points dotted around it and it's up to us how we design the station.

If we want to make it fit into more of a square shape then we can, if we want it to all be connected in a big long line to make a mile-long station only 1 module high, then we can. That's what I took away from the video.

It has also been confirmed already by CBJ in the Q&A thread that we will have a "station blueprint" system whereby we can use some kind of in-game design UI to create our dream station, and presumably mess with different inputs and outputs before 'confirming' the end result, to avoid the whole scenario of having to actually spend in-game-money to do our prototyping.

These blueprints can then be reused to build the same station elsewhere multiple times if we wish, and possibly modified and saved as new blueprints (though that part wasn't confirmed yet).

Will be interesting to see how the system turns out but I also do hope they keep the very cool and interesting factory-style designs with all the moving parts and stuff like you describe, they do look really good

[Skeeter]

I personally do not care for modular stations and linking it just makes messy looking stations dotted around the sectors. I much prefer xbtf and x2 single stations where you just visit each and do the trade then find the next one u need to visit, also stations can look more self contained and unique looking without having to be made to look like a module which attaches to another station.

So that for x4 is a bit dissapointing for me personally probably because i dont want to build stations in that way.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

@Morkonan

In X3 I did not need a complex calculator.

I had built so many complexes that I new exactly what I needed to do,
to build the most efficient complex for the goods I wanted to produce.

I found the dragging of an asteroid across a sector to be a royal PITA.

So I found "nice safe" sectors with the required asteroids as conveniently located as possible. I built sector spanning complexes that supplied all the weed, booze, shields, weapons etc I could ever want.

In one game I had nearly all of the pirate factions turned blue do to my zealous production of booze and narcotics. I could equip any ship from my complexes.

So when Rebirth came along, with its construction vessel and architect,
this was a relief for me. Here was a different method of getting a huge
space station that was tidy and nice and would make me money.

Also, no longer did I need to jump a ship all over the universe just to get it equipped. You did that at the shipyard.

[carran]

Complex building got in the way of my playing style and I *really* appreciated Gazz mod to reduce the spiders mess into compact units

Horses for courses I guess

[DaMuncha]

Well I tried station building in XR as part of the main story, but it just wouldnt build, I gave it what it needed but it took such a long time to get a % and then stopped, I gave it money for new supplies but it wouldnt buy anythign it needed, I tried to give it some supplies and more money and it just wasted the money and wouldnt take the supplies.

Station building in XR was a complete fail.

[Vandragorax]

Well I tried station building in XR as part of the main story, but it just wouldnt build, I gave it what it needed but it took such a long time to get a % and then stopped, I gave it money for new supplies but it wouldnt buy anythign it needed, I tried to give it some supplies and more money and it just wasted the money and wouldnt take the supplies.

Station building in XR was a complete fail.

What you are describing was true on launch, but now the game has gone through myriad fixes and improvements, this situation shouldn't happen anymore and stations are massively easier to deal with than the sprawling messes from X3.

From what it sounds like, X4 is just the next step on from this, making the design of the stations more like Lego so you can snap modules together instead of having to choose to "build" it then "place" it in space somewhere near your existing units, and the whole thing is a bit clunky.

Now we will be able to design the whole thing in a blueprint, then BAM, place it down wherever we like (and where it fits .ie. might need to be on top of an asteroid).

[Crimsonraziel]

ie. might need to be on top of an asteroid).

Nope, no asteroid-stations/modules for mining they said.

[Vandragorax]

ie. might need to be on top of an asteroid).

Nope, no asteroid-stations/modules for mining they said.

If it's all done through mining ships with drones now, I'm happy with that

[Skeeter]

So u can't build a ore or silicon mine like past games? Just with ships? Man that sucks.

[Vandragorax]

So u can't build a ore or silicon mine like past games? Just with ships? Man that sucks.

I don't see in what way it sucks. Either way you have to get the ore/whatever to the place where it's needed, this way you already have it loaded into a mobile vessel instead of a static platform

[Alan Phipps]

Nope, no asteroid-stations/modules for mining they said.

Where was that said and can you provide a link or reference please? All the Q&A in the Index Sticky imply that mining aspects are still pretty much undecided or under development. Also X Rebirth had specialist mineral mining complexes and gas mining complexes although those were all NPC owned.

[PowerPC603]

I don't know where you got the idea that stations will be limited to being built in squares from. There's nothing in that video that suggests as such imo.

What it has been described as is being "like Lego" where we have connection points to clip station parts together. It looks like one part would have these connection points dotted around it and it's up to us how we design the station.

If we want to make it fit into more of a square shape then we can, if we want it to all be connected in a big long line to make a mile-long station only 1 module high, then we can. That's what I took away from the video.

It has also been confirmed already by CBJ in the Q&A thread that we will have a "station blueprint" system whereby we can use some kind of in-game design UI to create our dream station, and presumably mess with different inputs and outputs before 'confirming' the end result, to avoid the whole scenario of having to actually spend in-game-money to do our prototyping.

These blueprints can then be reused to build the same station elsewhere multiple times if we wish, and possibly modified and saved as new blueprints (though that part wasn't confirmed yet).

Will be interesting to see how the system turns out but I also do hope they keep the very cool and interesting factory-style designs with all the moving parts and stuff like you describe, they do look really good

As far as I understood the video, blueprints don't work as you describe it here (designing a prototype for some complex to repeat the same setup later on).
When you start the game, you only have access to a few modules to build (for example: small power plant and some small food plant).

When you explore and find new npc stations and modules dotted around the universe, you can scan those modules from an npc complex to receive a blueprint of that specific module type (example: crystal fab).

When you have the blueprint, you can implement that module type in your own complexes because you learned how to build that module type by scanning an existing one, owned by npc's.

That's how I understood it.

Also my concern is that you can only build within the blue cube around your complex when you're placing modules.
My guess is also that you cannot build outside that cube and you have to create cubic looking complexes.
But then again, according to their explanation, you can build any way you want.
So it's not really clear how it will work.

I also read something about buying placement rights for complexes (actually buying some space to build in) and my guess is that you might as well be able to expand the size of that big cube when you pay for it.
But I'm not sure about this.

[ADMNtek]

i think bernd said that you can expand your building area. but it will get progressively more expensive the bigger it gets. its to keep you from just building just one system wide station unless you have the funds i guess.

[CBJ]

As far as I understood the video, blueprints don't work as you describe it here (designing a prototype for some complex to repeat the same setup later on).
When you start the game, you only have access to a few modules to build (for example: small power plant and some small food plant).

When you explore and find new npc stations and modules dotted around the universe, you can scan those modules from an npc complex to receive a blueprint of that specific module type (example: crystal fab).

When you have the blueprint, you can implement that module type in your own complexes because you learned how to build that module type by scanning an existing one, owned by npc's.

That's how I understood it.

You're both right and wrong. You're right because the things we call Blueprints allow you to build specific modules, but you're wrong because the game also allows you to do roughly what BlackDemon described using a different kind of "blueprints" known as Construction Plans.

And just to clarify, while there are indeed limits on the space occupied by a station, and limitations on the ways any given pair of modules can be joined together, it is not a case of putting together little cubes to make bigger cubes as some people seem to think.