how fast can you assess someone?

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mrbadger
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Post by mrbadger » Sat, 2. Sep 17, 09:38

Morkonan wrote:In a fit of self-reflection..

"Have you ever been judged unfairly?" I think it's a question worth dwelling on, first, rather than how one feels about the way they judge others or how accurate or useful it is.
yes, totally, at school I was labelled as 'educationally sub normal', and it took physically moving away from anyone who might have passed on that information to finally escape it and get on the educational ladder without having 'must be supervised' tacked on to everything I tried to do (something that kept happening to me until I moved away).

For that reason I never completelly close the door on someone, but to get to me if I have mostly given up because of their laziness they have to make the effort themselves.

And some have, well most don't, but one that I recall has.

In that case I had a student who I knew was really very clever, I could see it, but he was a lazy little @%&*.

I hated it, watching him throw away all the chances he had, and I kind of lost it at him in a workshop. I had my 'parent' hat on and I really told him off.

He was a Pakistani student, and while he wasn't too happy at being so completelly demolished, he sat there and took it.

Then he went home and told his dad, who said he completelly agreed with me, and told him off again.

That student went from being a waste of space first year to getting a good final grade and doing a Masters degree, and thanked me for the telling off.
Last edited by mrbadger on Sat, 2. Sep 17, 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by birdtable » Sat, 2. Sep 17, 10:27

I notice no one has mentioned the instant assessment of eye contact in an area full of distractions, in a split second both parties make assessments that could have life long consequences (good or bad)... or is it natures trigger points just being ticked. ?

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Post by Chips » Sat, 2. Sep 17, 15:46

In making your judgement, you're assuming that what you are observing or interacting with is an honest and reliable representation of the individual in question under the circumstance upon which you find yourself.

It rarely is...

My opinion of someone is near always changing depending upon our interactions - the only exceptions being my best friends, whereby there's significantly more leeway in the event of social cockups :D

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Post by mrbadger » Sat, 2. Sep 17, 17:36

But you assume you will have the opportunity to have those further interactons, and how do you decide if you want to have those further interactions in the first place?

In the case of my students, well I was obviously a student myself, and I'm not an idiot.

I may have attended university as a mature student, but I attended nurse training in my early twenties. Still not a teenager, and yes it was after abandoning a potential life as a Benedict monk, so I wasn't a typical student.

Few students have an assigned 'returning to society' mentor priest after all.

But I know all about the differences between a persons 'real' personality, and their student one.

You can't get everything about a person no matter how long you know them at university, even if you know them for the entire three years. But you can get a good idea about what sort of *student* they are real fast.

As for my personal life, well I'm sorry, but if you reek of stale cigarretes, have such a small vocabulary that you have to use profanity to complete most sentances and think being loud is a good substitute for having a real point to make we probably aren't going to get along.....
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Post by Chips » Sat, 2. Sep 17, 22:02

I'll clarify. I don't close my mind to interaction after first meeting; always re-evaluate based on what is seen. I wouldn't, and didn't, turn any student away - no matter how *bad* they appeared to be at first - always engaged with an open mind.

People can, and do, change. To think otherwise is very narrow minded - especially students who are going through a very emotion and experience rich environment, unsure of themselves, their direction, or how the "fit" in. They are continually developing, they're continually influenced by experience and friends - which also shift. They can, and will, get sidetracked, distracted, or simply overcome.

That is all I mean; scientist after all... always evaluate and change based on current evidence, not prior.

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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 3. Sep 17, 07:41

mrbadger wrote:...For that reason I never completelly close the door on someone, but to get to me if I have mostly given up because of their laziness they have to make the effort themselves...
I love the word "laziness." It has so many possibilities and just as many reasons why someone uses it.

Be careful of it, though. It's a deceptively pleasant word to use when describing someone.

You've used it in several significant, seemingly unrelated, examples. There's a shared variable in those, isn't there?

"He's lazy and doesn't want to do his work," said several of my teachers.

Was I? No, I loved learning new things. But... there were other things going on, there, and they didn't bother to look. Back then, it was "sink or swim" and students were expected to work hard. Teachers were not supposed to get involved in the lives of their students outside of class. They could even be disciplined for attempting to do so. It just "wasn't done." And, even when they did eventually find out, they did... nothing. Why? It just wasn't "done" back then. If a child showed up to school with new scars and wounds every week... Don't think about it, just call them "lazy." :)

A good friend of mine has worked very hard for what he has. He's very independent and left home as soon as he could. He's had plenty of jobs in his field and he continues to advance in his career with each new job. He makes very good money, these days. He has very nice things. He has "made it."

And, those who haven't? Typically, without further examination, they're just "lazy." :)

(A bit of a stretch in attributing that to him, but it's useful for an example.)

Sometimes, how we choose to judge someone, and it is indeed a "choice", is based more on ourselves than anything we truly know about the person.

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Post by Mightysword » Sun, 3. Sep 17, 09:56

mrbadger wrote: But I know all about the differences between a persons 'real' personality, and their student one.

You can't get everything about a person no matter how long you know them at university, even if you know them for the entire three years. But you can get a good idea about what sort of *student* they are real fast.
As someone who have a lot of teaching experience yourself I'm sure you are quite right about it, and your assessments probably will be correct 'most' of the times. But are you confident it will be correct 'all' the times?

I used to have one student that ... even now I don't understand how he studied. In class he seats at the back, a lot of time I think he's falling asleep, when I'm concerned whether he's following the class or not, I come over and see most likely barely recognizable scribble. And the reason for my concern because sometime he gives me question that make me think "how can you turn what I just explained into THAT?!?", it gives the impression he's not following or in a clue-free zone most of the time.

To be honest, until the first exam I thought he gonna be someone that will have to drop or fail the class. Hist first ... turn out to be pretty good. From that point onward I tried to assists him as much as I could while trying to figure out his study method ... in the end, he passed with a good mark and I have no idea how he did it. And no, I wouldn't call him smart, there was time I can see him struggle, but the way he organizes, his in class posture ...etc... he's a spitting image of a D or a F student, it's only because I tried to make a point of observing him that I can see he actually worked hard ... maybe?

As for my personal life, well I'm sorry, but if you reek of stale cigarretes, have such a small vocabulary that you have to use profanity to complete most sentances and think being loud is a good substitute for having a real point to make we probably aren't going to get along.....
Well, as someone who works with a large number of what you would call second chance students my perspective is different. There was this one particular class I took over a few years back. Before I went into it the first time the lead instructor pulled me over and cautious me that I should be very careful about this class because they're a major source of headache for the department for years, that I can be mother Teresa and they still gonna find something to complain about me. My thought was "did I step in a minefield here?".

The first day of class, one guy come to me after the introduction and said: hope you can work something out, half of us here dropped out by the second exam in the previous semester.

Didn't take long for me to realize what is "the" problem with this class. Over the years I have met various type of student in this class:

- A guy with tattoo covered his face that he told me his dad got pissed, so he gonna go through the painful process of scrubbing it off next year.
- Guys who I have to sign probation paper to verify they are in my class.
- Guys that disappeared for a couple weeks then come back, citing they were arrested. Oh yeah, there were cases they disappeared for the entire semester, and come back the next because that was how long their sentence was.
- A guy who was sitting my class, looked down and saw a dude circling around his bike in the parting slot, tell me he has to go check. Half an hour later come back saying he just cut a deal to sell that bike.
- Students that ... I'm pretty sure were there by a reluctant choice, as such, don't really care that much or trying that hard.

Guess what, not a single complain during the 3 years I took over, and the class has one of the highest success rate in the department. My approach/method to this class would be to wordy to say in length, but it can summarize to one single motive, when I am in this class there is one question I always ask myself: what gonna happen to these students if they fail this class, and where they gonna end up in life?. To be frank, I don't think the future is too bright.

When a student want to give up on his test early, I tell him I'm not collecting it and he should go clear his mind and come back. When I see someone sitting frustrated at a problem, I told him to take a break, and make a point of kicking him out of the classroom telling him to go get a smoke or something as sitting there ain't gonna do anything. If I treat this class as I would a STEM or a research class, I think 3/4 of them will fail every semester. So ... philosophy be damn, my motto for this class is always "I'll take you to glory even if I have to drag you there kicking and screaming". :wink:

For the record, most of the students in this class are older than me, but sometime I do think if it's a bit irresponsible for us to say something like "well, they are adult fully able to make decision for themselves". In some circumstance, I feel that is more like an excuse on our part to be lazy. :P

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Post by mrbadger » Sun, 3. Sep 17, 10:23

Morkonan wrote: I love the word "laziness." It has so many possibilities and just as many reasons why someone uses it.

Be careful of it, though. It's a deceptively pleasant word to use when describing someone.

You've used it in several significant, seemingly unrelated, examples. There's a shared variable in those, isn't there?
Since I have no way of knowing why the student in question either:

1: didn't do the exercises they were asked to.
2: didn't turn up to lectures.
3: didn't come for tutorial sessions.
4: doesn't pay attention in the lecture.

Laziness is a useful term, as I can never know the real reason. They may have just out from under a controlling parent and discovered cannabis.

Whatever the reason, the result is the same, and in a class of over fifty students, I do not have the time to nursemaid them.

It's probably wrong. In most cases these kids probably aren'y emotionally ready to be at university, and may never be. There may be somewhere that they would be fully engaged.

Or maybe not, sometimes someoneone who appears to be lazy is just lazy. I don't know, and will never know.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli

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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 3. Sep 17, 13:31

mrbadger wrote:Since I have no way of knowing why the student in question either:

1: didn't do the exercises they were asked to.
2: didn't turn up to lectures.
3: didn't come for tutorial sessions.
4: doesn't pay attention in the lecture.

Laziness is a useful term, as I can never know the real reason. They may have just out from under a controlling parent and discovered cannabis.
But, you do know now that he, as a student, is not inherently "lazy." He's demonstrated that he is not, even if he didn't demonstrate that before. And, even if he appeared to be the exact opposite of "industrious." :)
Whatever the reason, the result is the same, and in a class of over fifty students, I do not have the time to nursemaid them.
But, you did see potential and you acted upon that, as a good instructor should do, in order to, perhaps, "save" that potential from being wasted.

You acted. You formulated a plan. (or didn't, I dunno :) ) You let him have it, gave him a kick in the pants, and said/did whatever it was, perhaps in a shocking/confrontational manner (not judging, just describing) and in such a way to get him so stirred up that he discussed it with his father, who happened to agree with you. This came together to form some force that could have motivated him to begin to apply himself. I think that's a reasonable assumption.

This was an efficient judgement and an expedient course of action, given the circumstances and the roles and relationships of those involved.

But, it may not have been a correct judgement and, perhaps, it may not have been the best way to motivate him or to "solve" the problem. It worked, but because it worked, that doesn't intrinsically justify the "judgement." Who knows what he felt that was keeping him from applying himself? What was standing in his way? What really happened that turned the course of his academic career around?

Could a different observation and a different course of action had the same positive results? Maybe. We don't know, of course.
It's probably wrong. In most cases these kids probably aren'y emotionally ready to be at university, and may never be. There may be somewhere that they would be fully engaged.
They're not ready to be making decisions, supported by a course of intense actions, that will form the substance of "the rest of their lives." Heck, most people aren't ready for that sort of critical point, but most inevitably reach it, stumbling in the dark or wide-eyed through the light.
Or maybe not, sometimes someoneone who appears to be lazy is just lazy. I don't know, and will never know.
That's very true. I'm "lazy." Well, I'm lazy, these days. And, I don't do all the things that I should. But, it's not really because I'm truly a lazy person. I'll rip my own arm off and beat an alligator to death with it in order to save someone else, especially if it's a friend. I'm lazy because I'm not too concerned about myself and things I should be concerned about... (Too much introspection breeds morose... is morosity a word? :) )

The point is this:

A woman will know whether or not she will look favorably upon one's romantic attentions within the first few minutes of meeting.

I find that fact fascinating. It takes an immense amount of effort and a great number, usually, of extraordinary circumstances to change that initial judgement. And then, the moment is past, the opportunity is lost, the future takes a fixed course and one is instantly "friendzoned" for eternity...

Our judgements of other people help to form our reactions to them and what decisions we make that concern them. Those reactions, for good or ill, can have long-term consequences and will surely have some impact upon our future course of action. Those initial assessments, right or wrong, will dictate, in part, our future interactions with that person.

Would your student have reacted positively if you took him into your office and talked with him about his coursework and performance, perhaps getting him to open up as to why he was not applying his obvious talent? Perhaps a shared cup of coffee would have helped and just the fact that you paid singular attention to him could have made him realize he didn't value the opportunity as much as he should?

We'll never know and it won't matter, anyway, since what appears to be a positive result is truly what happened. It's all good.

But, one could have just as well said that young man was depressed or lost or unsure of himself. And then, one could have said that a good, revealing, heart-to-heart conversation with him could have helped him to discover his problem and to conquer it in order to truly apply himself. Or not.. :) Maybe he just needed to be yelled at. :D (Not saying that's what you did, just showing the stark contrast between acts that yield the outward results.)

All this may sound tremendously naive. I'm not naive, though. I just try not to make those judgements of another person which severely narrow a set of reactions that could be supported, logically, by such a judgement. It takes quite a bit of negative reinforcement for me to abandon a neutral, more hopeful, "judgement" of someone that would force me to adopt rational, negative, reactionary behavior to them. I'm not perfect, of course, I only "try" to do this, with varying amounts of success and no few failures. :)

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Post by mrbadger » Sun, 3. Sep 17, 18:40

Morkonan wrote: That's very true. I'm "lazy." Well, I'm lazy, these days. And, I don't do all the things that I should. But, it's not really because I'm truly a lazy person.
Most people who think they are lazy usually aren't, most people who are don't think they are. In my experience this because they have no idea what it is to be a non lazy person.

I usually think of a non lazy person as someone who doesn't waste their time. My didinition has been strained a bit since I became disabled, since I can't do as much, so I do too much and end up hurting myself, getting told off at work and at home. Funny realy, since I never considered disabled people to be lazy, but now I'm disabled, I find it far too easy to get angry at myself for being lazy if I feel I'm not doing enough.
Morkonan wrote: Would your student have reacted positively if you took him into your office and talked with him about his coursework and performance, perhaps getting him to open up as to why he was not applying his obvious talent? Perhaps a shared cup of coffee would have helped and just the fact that you paid singular attention to him could have made him realize he didn't value the opportunity as much as he should?

We'll never know and it won't matter, anyway, since what appears to be a positive result is truly what happened. It's all good.

But, one could have just as well said that young man was depressed or lost or unsure of himself. And then, one could have said that a good, revealing, heart-to-heart conversation with him could have helped him to discover his problem and to conquer it in order to truly apply himself. Or not.. :) Maybe he just needed to be yelled at. :D (Not saying that's what you did, just showing the stark contrast between acts that yield the outward results.)
:)
That particuler student got the full on 'I'm going to tell you off because you're being bloody stupid and I know you could do better' treatment, and it worked.

That particuler telling off became a wider talk on possible career choices that atracted several students and went on for about 20 minutes, so it wasn't all me yelling at him. I never actually yelled at him, firm words yes, but no yelling, although I did say he was wasting an opportunity that he'd only get once and his father (who I knew owned his own business that he built up himself) would be ashamed if he saw him pissing about the way he was.

But I have sometimes tried to get through to students using various methods (meeting for coffee, meeting in my office, one such last ditch meeting going on for two hours last semester and getting nowhere). Sometimes it just plain doesn't work, sometimes they won't listen, or worse, don't even turn up.

University just doesn't always suit everyone. That isn't a surprise, why should it?
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 14:12

mrbadger wrote:Most people who think they are lazy usually aren't, most people who are don't think they are. In my experience this because they have no idea what it is to be a non lazy person.

I usually think of a non lazy person as someone who doesn't waste their time. My didinition has been strained a bit since I became disabled, since I can't do as much, so I do too much and end up hurting myself, getting told off at work and at home. Funny realy, since I never considered disabled people to be lazy, but now I'm disabled, I find it far too easy to get angry at myself for being lazy if I feel I'm not doing enough.
I generally look at the cost of not being lazy vs the negative cost of whatever it is they're being lazy about. :)

Mowing grass. Screw that, I won't do it anymore. Instead, I'm going to pay someone to do it for me. And, all that grunt work, gardening, trimming, weeding, blah, blah... I'll get someone to do that, too.

Lazy? A little bit. But, it's more because I can and I am rebelling against the social pressure of "You should be out in your yard with the dirt and bugs, toiling away so you look like an industrious person." Guy up the street from me is in his darn yard every weekend... doesn't know @$$% about landscaping, gardening or even mowing his darn grass, but is out there, anyway, getting dirty. Admirable? Heck, I dunno and don't care - I don't have to subject myself to be judged by whether or not I'm in my yard this weekend. (Yard guys come tomorrow and I'll be sitting on my ass, watching the news.../thumbsup)

What's the cost I'm avoiding? Sweat. What's the potential negative cost for being lazy? Nothing - I've got it covered and someone else will get paid to do it.

Some people are "lazy" when it comes to certain things. I knew a guy in college that didn't change the sheets on his bed for a darn year. And, he was "active", if you know what I mean. So, when we got together and helped him and his roommates move, the sheets literally fell apart when they were taken off the bed. Lazy? Yes, that was "lazy." He had a laundromat, had the money to wash his sheets, washed his clothes, etc.. He just didn't wash his sheets. I have no idea why he didn't end up with some nasty virus, eye-infection, skin condition, mites/whatever.., The cost was potentially gruesome and the effort he was avoiding was negligible.
That particuler student got the full on 'I'm going to tell you off because you're being bloody stupid and I know you could do better' treatment, and it worked...
Just curious, but have you had similar sorts of interactions with students where it didn't work? I don't mean the same sort of "talking to", but situations where you've singled out a potentially bright student who isn't performing to their potential and have tried to motivate them and were unsuccessful? (Curious as to how frequent such students reveal themselves and what their likely course is, in your experience.)
Sometimes it just plain doesn't work, sometimes they won't listen, or worse, don't even turn up.
I went to my department advisor and told him I had to drop out of college for that quarter. My mother was dying and needed 24hr care. There was only myself and my stepfather, so we each took a "shift." I took nights and simply could not manage going to class, doing assignments, sleeping and taking care of her 7 nights a week. Sounds like a difficult time and understandable, right?

He read me the riot-act, told me I was throwing my life away, that I'd never come back, that he left his family farm when he was 16 and look what a great life he made for himself, so what I was going through was nothing compared to that, yada, yada, yada... Veins were bulging out in his neck, his face was red and he exhibited ever indication of having a conniption fit... (Never seen one of those, before)

What he didn't understand is that I couldn't do "the rest of my life" when faced with a choice that including "abandon what you believe is right." Things turned out alright, in the end, and it did, indeed, take me awhile to return. It may have even had a negative impact on the possibility of me going further into research. But, I don't care - I was prepared to live with that.

It's not about you, it's about a person who applied their beliefs, moral, ethical or just "different" and then judged someone based solely on that perspective. He thought I was ruining my life. I thought I was simply doing what I knew I had to do, despite the personal cost. We may have both been right, in some ways. But, there was no "choice" available to me and he didn't understand that.

So, I got to hear a lot about his life, his struggles, his abandonment of his family, which I'm not judging him for, during a marathon sit-down. I don't know if he ever actually listened to what I was saying.. (He was, however, a very good guy and an excellent, enthusiastic, professor.)
University just doesn't always suit everyone. That isn't a surprise, why should it?
I remember a thread about that. Should it? Or, "could it?" I'm a big fan of formal education, but I think it needs to be expanded. I think everyone "should" attend secondary schooling after basic education has been completed. Trade and technical schools, "junior" colleges (2 year), formal apprenticeships, etc...

I think an adolescent graduating from basic education and then being told "go get a job that can support your" is practically criminal. I understand that's not how it is in some countries. Here, in the US, it happens all-too-often.

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Post by TSM » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 15:07

If I want opinion on someone I just ask the wife...........:D


I found as I get older that first impressions are normally the right ones, take my daughters boyfriend (seriously someone take him) a corporal in the Army as I was one of these once I could understand his mindset and thought he's not in this for the long term with my daughter and I was right as soon as she wanted to get serious he was off.

Some people can be trained to asses people based on how they act the Customs and Excise and Border Agency's have to make a decision moslty based on how a persons demeanor is without even asking a question.

No of this answers Mr Badgers question most likely but I just thought I would add my experience.
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Post by Mightysword » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 15:15

Morkonan wrote:
Sometimes it just plain doesn't work, sometimes they won't listen, or worse, don't even turn up.
What he didn't understand is that I couldn't do "the rest of my life" when faced with a choice that including "abandon what you believe is right." Things turned out alright, in the end, and it did, indeed, take me awhile to return. It may have even had a negative impact on the possibility of me going further into research. But, I don't care - I was prepared to live with that.

It's not about you, it's about a person who applied their beliefs, moral, ethical or just "different" and then judged someone based solely on that perspective. He thought I was ruining my life. I thought I was simply doing what I knew I had to do, despite the personal cost. We may have both been right, in some ways. But, there was no "choice" available to me and he didn't understand that.
"You always have a choice". People always utter the line as something profound ... usually when they are not the person making the choice.

I tend to think, when a student is in my class unless it was at gun point, there is at least a tiny little bit self-element for them to be there, whether how much weight they put on it versus other things is a different story of course. And a lot of time, pulling that element up to the surface is part of the job.

Just last semester, I worked with a guy who took my class the "third time".

- First time he did well but disappeared at the end.
- Second time he missed half of the class and homework.
- Third time, a lot like the second times.

Tbh, up until that point I was under the impression he's an irresponsible individual, but that didn't stop me from trying to pull him of course. My directive is always doing what I can, what happens, happen. But via his advisor I found out he is a vet that's struggling to adapt back to real life. On the last day I had him sit down and explained several of the work he missed so he can remake them (a policy I offer to every other student of course, not playing favorite here). He cried, saying this is the first time he managed to understand it. He managed to complete sufficient work to finally the class (which act as a blocking step to the rest of his program). Two weeks earlier, I understand that if he would fail again, he would quit school for good. Like I said previously, "what would happen to this student if he/she can not pass the class and quit school?" is a question I ask myself all the time, thankfully this time I didn't have to try to answer it.

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Post by mrbadger » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 21:09

Morkonan wrote: Mowing grass. Screw that, I won't do it anymore. Instead, I'm going to pay someone to do it for me. And, all that grunt work, gardening, trimming, weeding, blah, blah... I'll get someone to do that, too.

Lazy? A little bit. But, it's more because I can and I am rebelling against the social pressure of "You should be out in your yard with the dirt and bugs, toiling away so you look like an industrious person." Guy up the street from me is in his darn yard every weekend... doesn't know @$$% about landscaping, gardening or even mowing his darn grass, but is out there, anyway, getting dirty. Admirable? Heck, I dunno and don't care - I don't have to subject myself to be judged by whether or not I'm in my yard this weekend. (Yard guys come tomorrow and I'll be sitting on my ass, watching the news.../thumbsup)
I'm very much in agreement with you there, why have a manicured garden? What's the point of that? We have this wonderful thing called a widlife garden. Or something close to it. Means insects love it, it looks nice and we don't have to do much, which suits me perfectly.

My neighbor contantly works on his and it looks far too organised to me, I wouldn't like it even if I could do it.
Morkonan wrote:
Just curious, but have you had similar sorts of interactions with students where it didn't work? I don't mean the same sort of "talking to", but situations where you've singled out a potentially bright student who isn't performing to their potential and have tried to motivate them and were unsuccessful? (Curious as to how frequent such students reveal themselves and what their likely course is, in your experience.)
Yes, and I don't bother any more, I think that guy was a one off. Besides, while I do have a reputation for shouting at my students and waving my walking stick at them, I don't think I could get away with actually telling off too many, not if they don't know me well. My boss already can't beleive he's not inundated with complaints, given what he see's when he walks past my lectures (we have glass walls on our lectre rooms).

I'm generally considered harmless (from what some students tell me), but my assignments are considered to be terrifying, which I thoroughly approve of.
Morkonan wrote: I went to my department advisor and told him I had to drop out of college for that quarter. My mother was dying and needed 24hr care. There was only myself and my stepfather, so we each took a "shift." I took nights and simply could not manage going to class, doing assignments, sleeping and taking care of her 7 nights a week. Sounds like a difficult time and understandable, right?

He read me the riot-act, told me I was throwing my life away, that I'd never come back, that he left his family farm when he was 16 and look what a great life he made for himself, so what I was going through was nothing compared to that, yada, yada, yada... Veins were bulging out in his neck, his face was red and he exhibited ever indication of having a conniption fit... (Never seen one of those, before)
What you had thare is what I like to call an entitled asshole. It's important that you observe such people closely so you can avoid doing anything they do.

I'm glad you managed to get past that difficult part of your life in spite of his total lack of ability to be of help.

You wern't ruining your life, by helping your mother you were doing your duty as a son. How that could be in any way contsrued as ruining your life is something I cannot understand. I suppose he just had no ability to understand what you were saying. Like I said, asshat.


Morkonan wrote: I remember a thread about that. Should it? Or, "could it?" I'm a big fan of formal education, but I think it needs to be expanded. I think everyone "should" attend secondary schooling after basic education has been completed. Trade and technical schools, "junior" colleges (2 year), formal apprenticeships, etc...

I think an adolescent graduating from basic education and then being told "go get a job that can support your" is practically criminal. I understand that's not how it is in some countries. Here, in the US, it happens all-too-often.
I know this isn't quite what you're talking about, but today one of my students was a bit nervous to tell me that he had decided not to carry on after his Masters and do a Ph.D yet. As if I'd somehow be angry at him.

I suppose I can understand that he might worry about that, but why should I be angry? It's his life, not mine. If he wants to go get a job that's his choice to make.

I wrote an email telling him what a wise decision it was to wait, and said we should meet tomorrow for coffee, and that if, as he said, he did decide in a few years to apply for a Ph.D I'd give him a bloody awful reference that would forever destroy his chances in academia.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli

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Post by birdtable » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 21:23

How quickly you can assess the assessors from their assessments.

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Post by mrbadger » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 22:14

birdtable wrote:How quickly you can assess the assessors from their assessments.
There's probably some fancy Latin quote about that
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 5. Sep 17, 22:49

mrbadger wrote:...My neighbor contantly works on his and it looks far too organised to me, I wouldn't like it even if I could do it.
This neighbor makes a lot of noise, moves big things around, does stuffs, but then I can't figure out wtf he did, since nothing looks any better than it did last time. He did put up a nice wooden fence, though. It's a nice fence, just not put up nicely... Hard to describe, really. (I did both landscaping and fences when I was a young buck and didn't mind sweating.)
..I'm generally considered harmless (from what some students tell me), but my assignments are considered to be terrifying, which I thoroughly approve of.
That's the best kind of prof. Being a bit unpredictable, too, makes it more difficult for your Dept. Head to catch you...

..What you had thare is what I like to call an entitled asshole. It's important that you observe such people closely so you can avoid doing anything they do.
An outstanding bit of advice I'm going to file away so I can say the exact same thing to someone one day and mimic, only mimic, your wisdom. :)

(He was a nice guy, though, when he wasn't ranting. He did rant a lot in class, though. Come to think of it, he threw things too, at one point... True story coming up, briefly - He had a spout with throat-cancer or something similar, had to use a vocodor for limited time, some student figured out how to cause interference with it and... he took admin leave for a few months. Ended up healthy and could talk again, but couldn't yell as loud. He was, as you say, probably an asshat who managed, in fits and stalls, to act decent. :) )
I know this isn't quite what you're talking about, but today one of my students was a bit nervous to tell me that he had decided not to carry on after his Masters and do a Ph.D yet. As if I'd somehow be angry at him.

I suppose I can understand that he might worry about that, but why should I be angry? It's his life, not mine. If he wants to go get a job that's his choice to make.

I wrote an email telling him what a wise decision it was to wait, and said we should meet tomorrow for coffee, and that if, as he said, he did decide in a few years to apply for a Ph.D I'd give him a bloody awful reference that would forever destroy his chances in academia.
The lure of money or the need for it, perhaps. Or, maybe it's the dread of "even higher levels of anxiety coupled with more difficult workloads"?

With a Ph.D. in an appropriate focus, he could write himself a bigger paycheck than whatever an entry position his Masters could provide him.

"Higher ports of entry into the workforce net greater opportunities for larger gains over the working career." *

That used to be a maxim, back in the day. In today's IT/Tech market with today's generation, current hiring practices and frequent moving and jockeying across employers, maxims like that are getting sorely tested. But, this one is still broadly applicable across populations, so it may be worth mentioning.

(* "Theory of Work", graduate level, the supposedly "no duh" class that would deceptively make your brain ooze out of your ears. Had 12 students in it, including myself, and not all of them finished it. Two parts to it. Great prof, though.)

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Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 6. Sep 17, 12:51

Morkonan wrote: I went to my department advisor and told him I had to drop out of college for that quarter. My mother was dying and needed 24hr care. There was only myself and my stepfather, so we each took a "shift." I took nights and simply could not manage going to class, doing assignments, sleeping and taking care of her 7 nights a week. Sounds like a difficult time and understandable, right?

He read me the riot-act, told me I was throwing my life away, that I'd never come back, that he left his family farm when he was 16 and look what a great life he made for himself, so what I was going through was nothing compared to that, yada, yada, yada... Veins were bulging out in his neck, his face was red and he exhibited ever indication of having a conniption fit... (Never seen one of those, before).
In addition to what MrBadger said on this one it also sounds like that guy was being rather defensive of his own life decisions. Sounds like he may have screwed over a relative or two to get where he is today.

I've had similar awkward discussions myself.

My situation is that I'm in a career (post doctoral researcher) in which in order to progress you're expected to change jobs a lot. In a rarefied academic field this frequently means changing countries as well, with the USA as a major hub.
I'm also in the position where I'm my Mum's only living family member and I'm just not going to swan off to a place that's 7hr+ flight away and thus essentially leave her alone for the sake of my career. I just won't.
I've said as much during "career small talk" chats with other post docs and put more than a few backs up when it turns out they've done EXACTLY that thing themselves (or even worse) . . . . . and a whole bunch of guilt and self-loathing comes out in the form of barely repressed anger directed at me.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 6. Sep 17, 14:12

Bishop149 wrote:...I'm also in the position where I'm my Mum's only living family member and I'm just not going to swan off to a place that's 7hr+ flight away and thus essentially leave her alone for the sake of my career. I just won't.

I've said as much during "career small talk" chats with other post docs and put more than a few backs up when it turns out they've done EXACTLY that thing themselves (or even worse) . . . . . and a whole bunch of guilt and self-loathing comes out in the form of barely repressed anger directed at me.
With today's skilled, highly technical, workforce, geographical mobility is "the order of the day." It's a big change, historically speaking, and presents all sorts of new challenges, both for individuals and markets. In my opinion, we haven't seen anything like this since either the Industrial Age or, before, during the collapse of the Feudal system.

This does fit within the "Judgement" theme of this thread, by the way. After all, our culture shapes our values and our values shape our culture. (Which isn't just a different way to say nothing. :))

Multigenerational households, in the West, are an anachronism. Mobility is a factor for financial success and opportunity seeking. If this remains the same, we may see our own "values" change a bit further. We've already seen that with the sustained divorce rate with marriage no longer being considered a lifelong commitment. For heavily industrialized and technologically advanced cultures, birthrates are down dramatically. This isn't due to the "expected" changes in infant mortality, but more due to the cultural and economic pressures that require a longer work-cycle, more opportunities for women and, often, the need for a two-worker households in order to retain economic status.

AND, this does have a point..

Your experience is much the same as some of my friends. There are opportunities for workplace advancement, but many of them require geographical mobility, often to larger metropolitan areas, where tech/industry congregate, or to other countries, to take advantage of vertical promotion within large, multi-national, companies.

(Insert a bunch of stuff I didn't write about technological impacts :) )

But, there is a saving grace that may preserve some of our "family values" against the lure of employment opportunities abroad - Telecommuting/telework.

Unfortunately, you can't take advantage of that very often, I assume. But, in industries where this is possible, it's often an inducement for employment. Decentralized offices are also on the rise, allowing entire teams of workers to forego the daily commute in lieu of teleconferencing and job-site meetups and the like.

I think you're right in your estimation of the reactions and feelings of your contemporaries. You've held to the "old values" and they have embraced "the new." Sometimes, "the new" is necessary. Imagine if none of your fellow workers relocated to where you are, now. How many employees would be there? Would the office/lab even exist if that was the case?

There's another dynamic that could gain traction in order to help preserve what I suppose could be call the "family values" that are at the heart of your post: Entrepreneurial opportunities presented by technology and communication. In the US, entrepreneurship has long been a path to financial success. One of the strengths of a capitalist system is its ability to support many "small" businesses. In the US, many regional areas are starting to develop "tech centers" or areas of economic opportunity in tech fields that have sprung up due to the evolution of small and midsized tech companies growing their workforce footprint and their capability to generate wealth. This is even happening in relatively small towns, especially those in areas with good transport, communication and data support (Good competitive internet/data support structure) and the support of nearby Universities or other "feed sources" for technical workers.

The crazy thing is that it may be possible to one day support technically demanding jobs just about anywhere. That includes jobs that traditionally need the support of specialized or expensive tools. Technological incubators, shared-space work (Rent-A-Lab :) ), etc, could help to ultimately preserve values based on the family unit and work to moderate geographical migration of the workforce.

BUT, we have to get over the hump, first... and stay stable long enough for these things to happen. :)

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Post by Bishop149 » Wed, 6. Sep 17, 15:07

I don't know how true this is of other industries but I'd imagine there are some significant parallels everywhere seeing as the root cause of a lot of it is the same (the last word of this section)

A career path as a scientist is very very messed up, put broadly everything is structured around being "the best". To progress your career you must work at the best place, publish in the best journals, have the best ideas and get the best results etc. This is obvious bullcrap, most obviously because by definition the "best" is only defined in relation to everything else. By definition it is a rarefied thing that the vast majority of people will fail to achieve, and indeed they do, far less than 1% of people who graduate with the PhD ever make the jump that stabilises their career.

So what you might say, most employees in most industries never get to a high level position. That's normal.
Where I think science might be different however is that failure to do so it literally not an option. There are no stable mid or low level jobs as a researcher. The second you graduate a clock starts ticking (literally, the funding you apply for is delineated on the basis of how much of this time has elapsed) if you fail to make it after 5-7* years you'll start to look bad and your opportunities will substantially narrow, if you fail to do it by 10-15 you essentially become unemployable. There is also zero job security, most jobs can't legally fire you if you are a good reliable worker that fulfils their contract. In science this is not true you can be out of a job if the grant you were employed under runs out (they usually last about 3 years) and your boss simply doesn't bother to cover your salary in the next one. Entirely up to them, performance is irrelevant, no legal protection at all.
You can add to that a whole bunch of crap about Scientific success often involving a heavy dose of lady luck and that the people you work with (as I just hinted at, especially your boss) can substantially help or hinder you.

None of this is in the best interests of "science" in the slightest.
- Intense competition between labs (or even within labs) has them essentially working against each other rather than pooling resources and co-operating.
- Positive results are over sold, often to the point where critical flaws are overlooked (accidentally or otherwise).
- Negative results are swept under the rug, resulting in a vast duplication of wasted effort.
- Good, solid and dependable workers upon whom the whole effort rests are undervalued and driven off.
- The character traits that tend to lead to success in this environment often do not correlate with those required to be either a good scientist or a good manager.
As you touched on in relation to the family stuff its not too hard to imagine an alternative that is both far more humane and far more efficient and effective.
But you know . . . . . Capitalism.


*Bear in mind that unless you get super lucky a project good enough to get you through that glass ceiling (if it goes well) is likely to take at least 3-4 years, so basically you get a max 2-3 attempts.
"Shoot for the Moon. If you miss, you'll end up co-orbiting the Sun alongside Earth, living out your days alone in the void within sight of the lush, welcoming home you left behind." - XKCD

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