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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 04:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The world needs more people looking outwards. The more people look inwards the more "us", and the more "them".

That will not have a happy outcome.


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Mightysword





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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 05:07    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RegisterMe wrote:
The world needs more people looking outwards. The more people look inwards the more "us", and the more "them".

That will not have a happy outcome.


Agree. However, that looking outward also have to be couple with self-reflection as well. These days there are too many people who seem have no trouble of pointing out what "other people should do", and often ignore the question of "what should I do". It's like a teaching in Buddism: You are on the path to learn and to change yourself to the better. Sadly a reality if you go to most temple these days, it' is often its followers are more interested in pointing out what others should learn and change but not themselves. Wink


To put it frankly, there are far too many people question/criticize what the US do, and much less often I heard about what they can do or actually did. You want to talk about looking outward? I believe that's exactly what the US has been doing since after WW2, to the point of people make a point of criticizing it for doing too much of that, now the very same people are making the same complain but on the opposite. How can we make everyone happy? And is it our responsibility to even actually try to do so?

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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 05:23    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Mightysword wrote:
Then have you ever thought that ... we have never been the good guys? At least not in your definition. I don't think the US have ever been the good guy, at least not in the sense of someone have a Halo on our head.


Of course I realize this. I'm not naive. Smile

Quote:
...But make no mistake, through out the course of history I believe there have been no action that the US had taken that was not based on the ground that it will benefit the US somehow either in the short run or the long run. As it happens, we're often on the right side of history too, so that helps. And often enough, partners that buddy up with Uncle Sam tend to be prosper in the long run.


Is this a bad thing? International altruism amongst stable nations is virtually unheard of. It sometimes happens in times of crisis, like natural disasters, but few nations call up their rivals and ask them what they can do for them that day.

There are reasons, of course. If you have a lot of money and wish to help a great many poor people, you might just decide to hand them all a lot of money. But, then you couldn't ever help anyone else. And, just by handing them money, it's not likely to be anything more than temporary assistance. But, if you invested that money into an organization dedicated towards helping the poor and you used some of it to lobby on behalf of the poor, you may be able to attract much more support, change laws, create new programs to help the poor, etc..

A nation has to expend its energy wisely. If it ceases to exist, it can't help anyone, it can't "do good", no matter what its foundations or intentions.

Quote:
You can go back as far as the Vietnam war, from a statistical point of view the US scarified a lot for "freedom" both interm of money and blood. But in term of motive, it was a proxy conflict that was ignited at the interest of the US, and one that went wrong. Samething for the Korean war, except that one turn out to be alright. As it happened things has turning out looking like Vietnam more often than Korea for us lately, but make no mistake this is NOT something new.


I abhor lies. I also abhor those who prey upon the ignorance of others for their own ends. So, things like politicians screaming for a "war for freedom" when it's actually a war to "prevent someone from controlling a majority share of petroleum production" gets under my skin. Yes, the latter can have an effect on the former, in some ways, but it's not a mortal blow against one's "freedom."

But, it seems we have to use such words. The military is full of such manipulations, cranking out bright-eyed distributors of freedom at 800 rounds per minute... Not mindless, no, just a necessary indoctrination for any warrior. How else would you convince people to rush out in their thousands to kill the enemy, otherwise? And, how else do you convince parents to sacrifice their children? I don't want to think a friend died in combat in order to keep the price of gasoline under three dollars a gallon during the July holidays...

BUT - These things add up. Pretty soon, every war must be a Holy War, else it's not as great and important as the last. Everything must be done according to the best, most righteous, cause we can think up, no matter if it's a lie or not. So that I'm not misunderstood, it's not the specific conflicts that I contest, it's that we have become so protective of our sensibilities, so enamored of naivete, and so concerned with producing a "righteous cause" for everything that our nation does, nobody stops to consider whether or not they're lying to the People or that they're being lied to.

Suddenly, walking over to sharpen a pencil becomes a Holy Crusade For Freedom and Democracy and Puppies, else nobody would ever want to expend the energy and make the sacrifice to walk over there to sharpen that pencil...

Now, we have what is turning out to be the greatest liar ever to sit in the Oval Office. With a nation that has now become so used to embracing lies as truths, what damage can he not do to us?

Quote:
...People may criticize we do too much, people may criticize we do a sloppy job, but it's still better than nobody doing nothing, and it has been repeatedly showed that if the US doesn't do it, than no one will. So again, we might not do as much as we used to, but we still do a lot more than others.


I agree.

Quote:
..Do you seriously think the US as whole will regress back to the industrial age environmentally just because someone at the Federal level says so?


The demand for low-skilled factory work is overseas and in South America, not in the United States. However, in terms of environmental impact, relaxing certain regulations and practices has the possibility of effecting the quality of life of even more people. Manufacture of solar panels, for instances, involves lots of nasty chemicals. Revitalizing, artificially, coal production and relaxing waste restrictions could introduce toxins into already struggling rivers, streams and groundwater.

If a child dies of lung disease because a nearby coal-fired power plant is powering homes, hospitals, schools, daycares and retirement homes, that's an incidental unfortunate occurrence. If that child dies because someone wishes to increase their profit margins and succeeds by lobbying to get protective environmental regulations relaxed, based on lies or coercion, then that's manslaughter. There's a difference. Smile

Quote:
...You want inspiration and example? Looked at what we did, looked at what we achieved, and you see a plenty. And until someone can clearly surpass those and we still haven't picked up our slack, then maybe I'll feel a bit guilty. If anyone think a few years of Trump gonna wipe out all that, too bad for them, especially there is hardly just one Trump in the world right now Wink


I don't think a few years, or months (more likely Smile ) of Trump is going to tear down this country. But, every empire eventually falls. Every single one. If we don't protect our values and practice them, ensuring continuance of them, then we're hastening our own demise.

I worry about the next administration and whether or not they'll attempt to pick up the pieces and struggle on or take the easier, more politically advantageous route, by simply serving out their terms, lying just a little bit more, failing to understand that things are called "good" for a reason - They're generally good. (I do ascribe to certain shared mores that define, loosely, more or less universally acknowledged definitions of good and evil. It's a personal fault, some would say, but one I am comfortable with. Smile )

PS - I wrote a bunch more, of course. But, I think this sums up everything - Trump is just one more heavy load on the back of a country that is already in the middle of struggling with its own values and its own place in the world. I worry over how we are going to recover from that and how we can truly become a force for good, no matter if people believe that we are at the moment or not.

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Usenko
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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 05:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

It's not that Trump is the problem. If that were true, the problems faced by the USA would be over the moment he was impeached, elected out or somehow died (not that the latter is a particularly desirable outcome).

They won't be.

Trump is the symptom, not the cause.


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Mightysword





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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 06:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Morkonan wrote:

Is this a bad thing?


Oh nothing wrong or bad about it, that's kinda what I'm trying to say. Like I often don't put as much emphasis on the motive of why someone donate to charity like some others do, for me it doesn't matter if it was to buy fame, to reduce the tax bill, or genuie coming from the heart, that money will feed and clothe people all the same.

Quote:

I abhor lies. I also abhor those who prey upon the ignorance of others for their own ends.


What I'm saying here is if that is your problem, it shouldn't be a recent problem, it shouldn't be a problem that just started recently, it has always been a problem for decades or perhaps centuries. This is relative to your comment on how we're supposed to be the "good guys". Wink


Quote:

If that child dies because someone wishes to increase their profit margins and succeeds by lobbying to get protective environmental regulations relaxed, based on lies or coercion, then that's manslaughter. There's a difference. Smile


And there are still plenty of Children that face hungers in the US. We had come far, very far in our abilities to feed people yet we haven't feed everyone? Can we do more? Yes. Should we all be sitting here feeling guilty about it? Preferably not, else all of us should work all days and night while give up everything bar life necessity until no children are hungry! What I'm saying, I don't find the latter attitude helpful or productive.

Quote:

But, every empire eventually falls. Every single one.


And I dislike this saying, with a passion. I see people throw around this saying like it is a "buzz phrase". What does that even mean?!? Similarly to the phrase like "nothing is perfect" most of the time I fail to understand the meaning behind it. Everyone and everything should always strike to thrive and prosper, if one day it fall then so be it, but should not anytime in its life time an Empire should accept that fact that it will fall, the fact that every empire had come before had fail is completely irrelevant. Smile


Usenko wrote:

Trump is the symptom, not the cause.


Exactly, I think part of the reason people want to focus on Trump because they rather do that to hide their own fault. I have always said, whether you voted for Trump or did not vote for Trump, you are more then likely part of the reason why someone like him won the office. Again, if the pendulum swing so far to the right at the moment, it's only because previously it was pulled too far to the left. Evil or Very Mad

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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 11:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Mightysword wrote:
Again, if the pendulum swing so far to the right at the moment, it's only because previously it was pulled too far to the left. Evil or Very Mad


That's another thing about the US that bemuses the rest of the world. Anywhere else in the developed world (Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, Western Europe) the Democrats would be considered roughly centre right wing. For them to be considered "the left" makes us boggle.


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Usenko
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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

In one sense you're correct, Registerme, but on the other hand, the Americans have ALWAYS been fairly conservative. There's nothing new there. And yes, there's been a lot of swing within the American political scene over the last 10 years or so.


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What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)
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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 14:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

- that Trump should be in office at all reflects badly upon the electoral system in the US
- and that's coming from someone who lives in the UK, where a government is
- currently held together by the thinnest of Northern Irish glue..
- Scotland is (quite rightly) sabre-rattling and there are rumbles coming from the Welsh

- The very fabric of the United Kingdom is being torn apart, by greedy power-seeking politicians..
- Oh my, we have much deeper problems than the USA - our very constitution is at stake
- having torn apart the state, rewarding themselves handsomely in doing so, the UK economy clanks along the bottom..
- David Davies now threatens to "rip up the rule-book" and Chancellor Hammond threatens to turn us into an offshore tax-haven..
- Boris the Buffoon continues to create havoc on the international stage..

- Our Education system continues to deny education for the vast majority of our population, by starving it's own department of funding
- presumably in the knowledge that the British students are not needed when you can buy in already-trained employees from abroad..
- They do not appear to be willing to do anything to stop this dreadful decline, let alone reverse the trend..

- Our Health system is under fire - being starved of resources, so that it can be privatised by stealth..
- This has been ongoing since 1979, when Thatcher perpetrated the single biggest financial theft ever seen in this island,
- when she stole the nation's assets and sold them off to anybody with available cash

- no compensation was paid to those who were excluded from this so-called investment opportunity, by reason of economic necessity..
- most of those excluded from this process were the very people who rely on those public assets - especially the NHS, essential to the poor, the sick and the old..

- But at least Farage and his Brexiteers succeeded in their stated aim of tricking the population
- into the biggest economic crisis this country has endured in peace-time since the dissolution of the monasteries..

- my advice to the USA is to strengthen your political system, and makes efforts to ensure the well-being of your population.
- same goes for any world leader of true value..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhEhMinbd8g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0LaT6qVRpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-bFGzNMXw

- it's a tough road, but we must travel it..


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PostPosted: Sat, 15. Jul 17, 16:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

this made me chuckle..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSuD7gMQ0x4

also this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD8AwgO0AQI


Laughing


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PostPosted: Sun, 16. Jul 17, 10:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RegisterMe wrote:
Mightysword wrote:
Again, if the pendulum swing so far to the right at the moment, it's only because previously it was pulled too far to the left. Evil or Very Mad


That's another thing about the US that bemuses the rest of the world. Anywhere else in the developed world (Canada, Australia, NZ, Japan, Western Europe) the Democrats would be considered roughly centre right wing. For them to be considered "the left" makes us boggle.


Also it's a matter of fact that the right has actually moved way more to the right than the left has moved to the left, but in either case the distance between either side increases and obviously it's the other sides fault that the distance is growing. Another one of those stupidities caused by people losing their will to compromise and get bogged down by either left wing or right wing mentality. It's all just so childish.


But all that aside, i've said this a couple times before now, even if Trump on paper is the best prez the US has ever had (he's not and not going to be btw Razz), He's just not someone any population should look up to. The way he behaves and speaks and lies etc is just below any standard i at least have always been brought up to have. I worry very much about the example we are setting for our children. Hell if everything thats beeing claimed about obama by the right is true (ofcourse not), at least he managed to pull it of under a veneer of decency and elequancy. So again screw Orange face mctinyhands big time, he might be a symtpom of deeper global problems, but he's one ****** ugly symptom.


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BugMeister



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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Jul 17, 01:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

to say that being wealthy makes NO difference is obvious nonsense

more evidence of wobbly "compromise" in high politics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1-zU4MNLEg

- Kushner looks increasingly like Agent Smith from the Matrix movies..
- this man is without security clearance, which is becoming problematic..
- will he seek asylum in Russia..?

- ten summersets he'll undertake.. Laughing


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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Jul 17, 02:14    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Usenko wrote:
Aren't there rules against nepotism? I mean, Trump is REALLY taking nepotism to the next level . . .


- good question, Mr U:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/16/donald-trump-jr-russia-scandal-ivanka-jared-kushner

- ever onward..!! Laughing


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PostPosted: Mon, 17. Jul 17, 20:42    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Vlad's putting the screws on The Donald: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40635263. I'm guessing he wanted a face-to-face before his next move?

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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Jul 17, 14:32    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

may I just say
- this a been a thoroughly engaging off-topic of discussion here on the forum..
- looking back over its 170+ pages, it has ranged far and wide, and broached many related issues
- and in doing so has given hope and insight to more than just one of us..
- at times thoroughly engaging, at others mercilessly comical..

- excellent work by the Moderators! Very Happy Thumb up


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PostPosted: Tue, 18. Jul 17, 15:08    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@Bug

Indeed, I must say that a 170+ unlocked thread on the most probably the most divisive figure in the modern world is quite an achievement.
Everyone give yourselves a pat on the back, especially mods.


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