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(X3AP) OK, Kyoto, what am I doing wrong?
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J.I.Gorkij





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 16:56    Post subject: (X3AP) OK, Kyoto, what am I doing wrong? Reply with quote Print

Normally, I spent many of my battles driving Tyr, trying to snipe Xenons from distance, then strafing like hell when they get close.

I tried to fight with Kyoto few times and realized Kyoto can't do that. So, please, tell me, how do you, Kyoto captains, fly this ship personally? Any tips, tricks or tactic?

Thx in advance


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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 20:40    Post subject: Fighting Xenon Capitals Reply with quote Print

If you like hands-on combat with the big ships, Tyr is the best I've found. It's speed makes a big difference, along with its punch and heavy shields. The big overcharged blast is a nice beginning to combat. If you prefer heavy missiles, Kyoto or Osaka with much more storage might be better. But they're slow, especially Kyoto. Here's how I set up hours of Xenon combat, to get as much combat rank as you want.

I take one Tyr and one sidekick Skirnir, mostly for E. Extra M2s are just Xenon targets and aren't worth the trouble. The Skirnir with Shadow missiles can be devastating by itself but that's another story. I begin by destroying the SY in every Xenon sector that has one, except Core 023; and the Xenon capitals in the sector. J, K, and I only spawn in a SY except certain exceptional circumstances. By eliminating all the other SY and then clearing Core 023, you set it up so the Xenon capitals spawn one at a time from their single remaining SY. That's something like eighteen or twenty of them. They won't spawn again until you jump out for a very brief minute. Rinse and repeat as long as you want. If you get a bit behind, jump to one gate or another in the system.

When I first start, I use one Xenon capital as a shield, keeping my Tyr on the opposite side of another Xenon. With strafing and an occasional shift to the Skirnir, you can take the whole set of them, then rinse and repeat. With the spawning Qs it's hard to find time to do a shield drop to rebuild your shields. You might have to jump out if your shields get too low.

One nice trick is build a station close to the gates of a Xenon sector. They usually don't attack them unless you're in sector. Then you know if one gate or the other is clear enough to jump there. I like the Snail Ranch L but many others are okay too.

Be careful using Shadow missiles. Leftovers might choose the SY as a target. When there's no Xenon SY, then every Xenon sector goes into production overdrive. This is the one time that Xenon capitals spawn without a SY. Every Xenon sector spawns to its limits and gets Xenon attack missions. I'm not sure if and when it stops; I didn't hang around to check.

Once I got to Hero in Fight rank and just had to keep going to get XTreme. But it was 'same old - same old' by then.

Good Hunting!


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J.I.Gorkij





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 20:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks for your tips, sir, much appreciated. As I want to finally get X-treme combat ranks this time (never did, only trading rank), I will surely try your strategy.

But I am currently looking for using Kyoto as main flagship and i need tips/guiding, how to use Kyoto efficiently. I was recently using Cadius Xtra ship pack, where Tyr and other ATF/Terran ships have docks. Returned to vanilla for now, to collect Steam achievements I don't have.


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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 10:45    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Keep in mind it is a carrier (even though it is classed as an M2). A very heavily armed one but it is still just a carrier. Load it up with your favorite M6s and have at it. I had it loaded up with 6x Vali and they didn't do that well vs Xenon capitals. Never got around to using Vidars but at one time I did try it with 2 Claymores and 4 Vali. It worked fairly well for wrecking XI missions, although the Vali tended to get in the way of the missiles sometimes... They are cheap enough to replace though so it was no big deal.

But yeah, i suggest using that hanger for your main DPS. If worst comes to worst you can always just ram any other capital and destroy it. If you have Tyr's then I like to fly the Kyoto with M6s in the hanger and have the two Tyr's as wingmen. While it is a strong ship, it isn't that good IMO. The hanger is nice and it has the look. But that is about it really.

Since my last game was a Terran start, I abandoned my usual Hyperion Vanguard personal ship and went with the Springblossom. Worked out great since it can dock with the Kyoto if needed. But honestly unless I was doing something specific, I just parked my capitals between the gates in my sector Homeworld style in front of my PHQ.


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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 11:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Here is a think about Kyoto, while it's much slower it has amazing turn speed. Unlike Tyr, Kyoto is a circling ship. I think you are just too used to Tyr. Don't bother trying to strafe with Kyoto, it's way too slow for that and it's not flat so up and down Osaka/Tokyo strategy won't fly either but if you are circling while using broadsides and you see a volley, you can turn really damn quickly and avoid the shots, unless they were aimed at dead center of the ship. If there is another capital ship that handles somewhat similarly to Kyoto it would oddly enough be Pteranodon, despite vast difference in speed and equipment.

Wouldn't call it a carrier tho. Most? All? M2+ have docking bays of one kind or another. Don't remember off hand if xenon I is M2+ or not... it should be anyway, that one is the only big boy I can think of that has 0 docking capacity.

But yes, those 6 medium internal docking bays are FREAKING HUGE deal. Six bombers add some serious firepower or you know 6 hyperions with nothing but wraiths... some TS ships with mk1 drones are a very much viable strategy of creating a distraction field.


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J.I.Gorkij





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 11:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thank you both for valuable input... I plan to choose one flagship and use Pandora tunnings on her, thats why I need to know which ship i am going to use Smile And since i would really like to have M6/TP dock on my ship, Kyoto seems viable.

Since Kyoto can fire Wraith herself, why not use them as main armament then?

And slightly off-topic - does altering values in TShip trigger modified flag? Seems logical it doesn't, just making sure. Yeah, I am thinking about increasing Kyoto max cargo.


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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 11:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yes, the Xenon I is an M2+ but it exchanges the docking bay for a 3-tube missile launcher that can barrage all compatible missiles!

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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 22:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

J.I.Gorkij wrote:
Thank you both for valuable input... I plan to choose one flagship and use Pandora tunnings on her, thats why I need to know which ship i am going to use Smile And since i would really like to have M6/TP dock on my ship, Kyoto seems viable.

Since Kyoto can fire Wraith herself, why not use them as main armament then?

And slightly off-topic - does altering values in TShip trigger modified flag? Seems logical it doesn't, just making sure. Yeah, I am thinking about increasing Kyoto max cargo.

Wraiths can't be shot all that quickly, there is a significant delay between shots. Six hyperions is like having 6 missile launchers.

It should go modified. Not too sure tho... while I don't have mods besides my own modifications to UFJD, phq and cheat package I never play vanilla.

And as someone who enjoys using Kyoto, a word of warning. Save before you tune it, I hated it tuned personally, I don't know why.


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J.I.Gorkij





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 22:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

hisazul wrote:
Wraiths can't be shot all that quickly, there is a significant delay between shots. Six hyperions is like having 6 missile launchers.

It should go modified. Not too sure tho... while I don't have mods besides my own modifications to UFJD, phq and cheat package I never play vanilla.

And as someone who enjoys using Kyoto, a word of warning. Save before you tune it, I hated it tuned personally, I don't know why.


I hear you. Thanks for advice.

I need few docks for other ships though. TP for missions, TS for storage, one slot for specials (return ship, ship claiming etc.) Still, as you say, three missile tubes (Springblossoms) left. Good thing I use Spring as my fast flagship too.


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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 11:07    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

It's not very popular as a strategy but you can always transport a considerable amount of Lasertowers (LT) in your Kyoto (~120). If in confrontation with Xenon Capitals place them in groups of 30, depending on the strategic situation: in a half circle in parallel to the Ecliptic or in an upright X facing the incoming Fleet.
If you stay IS, those LTs will rip Xenon capitals to pieces. Same for Qs and P/PX.
Consider your M2 and the LT-groups as a "fortress"; after placing it I usually change into another ship (Pirate Mamba Raider for speed and remote control of heavy ships from a safe distance or attacking one dangerous attacker to lure it away from the fortress; Cobra for precision attacks on targets, mainly flails for fighters [as the seek new targets if target 1 is destroyed])

Do not use LTs against hordes of fighters, the LTs ar e not fast enough.

Main advantages of the LT-tactics: cheap losses (in comparison with other ships!); after a fight you can pick up the LTs and they are 'insta-repaired' as soon as they are on board.

Last hint: If you use LTs with Gazz' "Ring of Fire"-script do NOT use the "hidden LT"-option. You will not be able to recollect them. You may collect LTs in a "Ring of Fire" if you have placed the 'naked' LT without the MC on board of the LT-transporting ship.

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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 19:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I've done only one short raid with Kyoto (into Terran space). That was the first time with any Terran ship in X3AP. (Might have flown something Terran in X3TC but no recollection.)

This Kyoto, it did fell of a lorry recently with a 98% hull. Arming it was so and so. PSPs I've found more than enough, but the three other turrets got about two antifighter guns each. The Terrans have ridiculous export trade restrictions; my credits are just as good as of any other Enemy of Sol.


Tactics? Point and shoot, just like in Tiger and Python. Head on approach. Engage full reverse thrusters at 10km distance. Sit in forward turret and fully charge the volleys. Ideally, the first volley hits the enemy at maximal range.

If the target survives long enough to get its volleys close, then return to bridge and apply short bursts of strafe. On reverse the speed is -10m/s regardless of what ship one flies.

(With Tiger energy will run out. Then it is time to turn 180, dash away until energy banks are full and repeat.)

While this is essentially just sniping from distance, the head on angle improves the chances to hit.


As said, just one short sortie. Not many big targets, but they did die good. The incomplete anti-fighter hardpoints were obviously insufficient; fighter wing from Tokyo was too much. I'm used to that in Python; the JumpDrive has charger is on short dial.

What I did do was not using the full potential of Kyoto.


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PostPosted: Thu, 25. May 17, 03:01    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

What I did with one of my Kyotos (the other I docked a "heavy" version of each M6 inside) was dock an Auster Hauler and a Claymore, as well as a 2 Mistrals (one full of Tomahawks, the other Phantoms).

The theory goes that if I want to get close and personal with the enemy then I fly the Auster due to its M6-grade shielding. If I want to keep my distance I'll use the Claymore due to the Phantom's 10KM range advantage over the Tomahawk.

I need to test to see how that works in practice, but I can't think of a safer way to replenish missiles on-the-fly! Laughing


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PostPosted: Wed, 7. Jun 17, 11:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Some more time in Kyoto. (I made the "mistake" of following the Huntington route to Xenon farming.)

Xenon 023 (eventually). Kyoto has 24 PSP, only 4 SSC (2 up, 2 down) and 8 EMPC (back).

Single PSP turret can oneshot PX. Two fully charged volleys kill a Q. Fully charged volley eats about 5GJ of shield. Thick hulls take longer.

The side turrets of Kyoto can almost shoot forward. Turning just a little to a side brings thus two turrets at a target. However, you have to get closer to target for that because Kyoto is long and the side turrets are way behind of the front turret.

PSP's turn awfully slow. Furthermore, they have a clear pause between shots. A "reload delay". That is not all bad. Your turrets fire a volley. Then you turn and strafe to dodge incoming shots. By the time the PSP turret is ready to fire again, you have completed a dodge and swung back to firing solution.


The recharge rate of the 14GJ shielding ... no amount of Xenon fighters can make a dent.

Being in crossfire of point blank capital enemies can take your shields down. Particularly the Qs that jump and sneak into flanks when you are busy are annoying.


On one jump to 023 -- an auto-piloted jump which is usually good at avoiding collisions -- there were a K or J right at the Gate. Collision and slight hull damage. A lesser ship would have become a Goner.


Overall, the Kyoto performs very nicely in a Xenon sector despite being big, slow and Terran. Split


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PostPosted: Wed, 7. Jun 17, 13:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I once did a complete playthrough that was centred around getting up to and then using a Kyoto. The basic premise was that it was my deep-space exploration ship, a Cortez (Babylon 5 reference) of sorts. In this particular game, I originally intended not to put down any roots, but rather to live nomadically in my Kyoto, which was equipped with a TS, a TP, an M8, an M6, an M3+, and I think an M5 (all Terran), to give me the necessary flexibility. It was briefly amusing, but ultimately I found it too constraining as I do any ship that is so slow and ungainly - I prefer to base myself on carriers, as quick and nimble as possible (M7Cs, usually, though a crate-upgraded Woden has also proved suitable) - also, I ended up corrupting my nomadic concept with some stations (which is pretty much inevitable - I don't skip plots, so the Hub is already a major root, and then not using the PHQ and the CHQ just feels so WRONG, hehehe), so the whole concept went out the window: I was simply unable to force myself to maintain it with integrity.

Still, as a "mobile home", one can do much worse than a Kyoto... It has very thick walls, so can withstand pretty much any weather, and is certainly able to make its presence felt. It was fun while it lasted. Smile


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