EnglishGermanFrenchRussianItalianSpanish
Log inRegister
 
If you would buff fighters, how would you buff them?
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Santi
Moderator (DevNet)
Moderator (DevNet)

MEDALMEDALMEDAL

Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 3264 on topic
Location: UK
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Fri, 10. Feb 17, 22:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

You can tweak fighters, but the problem is the gap between ship classes and roles. Large and X Large trading ships have too many weapons, some of them could qualify as warships to be honest.

A heavy fighter should not have any problems tackling a trading ship, fair enough if the trade ship is a smuggler or carries a very valuable cargo for it to have more guns, but run of the mill traders should be pretty much defenceless.

As for warships, Balors are a good example of balanced anti fighter armament in a specific class of ship with a defined role. Important as others have said, is that there are more control regarding how to use your assets in combat, does not matter how much you tweak fighters and other ships if at the end combat is a free for all in melee range.


_________________
A por ellos que son pocos y cobardes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Warnoise





Joined: 08 Mar 2016



PostPosted: Sat, 11. Feb 17, 07:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I think Fighters with missiles arent bad, i just think that they lack in variety in terms of weaponry (which plays in lack of variety in fighter roles) but that is another topic.

I know improving their AI at fighting capital ships (add strafing/ hovering while destroying surface elements instead of flying straight towards it) would be hard and takes a long time.

So as a simple solution, i think number tweaking is feasible. Improve hull/shield of slow fighters like katana, and drop the price of all fighters by at least 50% (5mill for the drostan is just insane).

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mr.WHO





Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 2710 on topic
Location: Wroclaw - Poland
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sat, 11. Feb 17, 10:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If you have access to Ideas forums, I posted the the full combat craft rebalance (fighters included) - basically entire X-Rebirth ballance is Skunk-centric crap, thus everything else is out of ballance.

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=393402

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nikola515





Joined: 04 May 2012
Posts: 2791 on topic
Location: DeVries
Thank you for registering your game
modified
PostPosted: Sun, 12. Feb 17, 11:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Only problem that i see with fighters in all X games is that they don't have major role in game. For example they cant auto fix (auto dock to shipyard/station to get fixed)and they require too much micromanaging to maintain them. Setting up of M1 in X3 was nightmare and especially when it comes managing them. This makes them expendable and hard to reuse without micromanaging... All though i would love to see different types of ship loadouts.... For example having light,medium and heavy Katanas Wink


_________________
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....


Last edited by Nikola515 on Mon, 27. Feb 17, 21:30; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RodentofDoom





Joined: 27 Feb 2016



PostPosted: Sun, 26. Feb 17, 01:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The cap-ships designated as carriers need landing bays so they actually can be carriers

L-Sul ~20 spaces
H-Sul ~ 40 spaces
Arawn ~ 100 (2x 50) spaces


Being able to set a 'repair threshhold' that when reached a s/m ship pilot would automaically run off for repairs and then return to his assigned task, this would be nice as well (whilst semi automated, it has a time/cost component built in).

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Denaut





Joined: 16 Nov 2013



PostPosted: Mon, 27. Feb 17, 14:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.

Balance issues aside, larger drones could have similar sizes and stats with the current crop of fighters. Ideally they would also have similar visual variety. The current drone cargo system might need some reworking (different types/sizes of drone cargo for example), but by cutting "fighters" that time and energy can be better spent on a single game system with all its accompanying rules and AI.

More and better designed content for the drone system would also benefit the player as well. The current concept of the Skunk fails for 2 major reasons, 1) There is not enough well balanced drone content to support the "Skunk as drone carrier" concept and 2) The Skunk doesn't do anything while you are piloting drones.

I believe if the Skunk's drones felt more like piloting fighters with a larger array of specialized weapons and if the Skunk could continue to fly, carry out orders and defend itself (turrets?) while the player controlled drones the game would feel much more fluid and enjoyable in combat.

It is primarily a design issue, as are many fundamental problems with the game.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lord Crc





Joined: 29 Jan 2012



PostPosted: Tue, 28. Feb 17, 00:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Denaut wrote:
I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.


My thoughts exactly. Drop fighters, focus on drones and small cap ships to fill the void instead.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vadiolive





Joined: 18 Dec 2013



PostPosted: Tue, 28. Feb 17, 01:01    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Based : in Camulos Vanguard (S) at http://roguey.co.uk/xrebirth/ships/camulos-vanguard/

If increase around shield/armor in 25x in all S/M ship dont need change anymore anything

Since if record as well if buy this in shipyard cost me around 1M

Around 20x to 40x guess self balanced based em cost

Plus be carrier or automatic repair stuffs since dont have Enginner inside
Mega plus : Military ship have jumpdrive or carrier

Another thing make X / XL ships more expensive to buy , not produce (after all if you buy shipyard be massive profitable but its not vanilla anyway)

I test in combat with MICT/MOCT and CWIR several times is amazing cool battles , less ramships compare X/XL ships

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 25844 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Tue, 28. Feb 17, 21:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Lord Crc wrote:
Denaut wrote:
I think the problem with manned fighters is that they really shouldn't exist in the game at all. Their role overlaps far too much with the concept of drones, and the game would be better off with a more sophisticated, well balanced, and content filled system for them instead.


My thoughts exactly. Drop fighters, focus on drones and small cap ships to fill the void instead.


I completely disagree. First, it's not going to happen in Rebirth. Second, if fighters were dropped, the player won't have the ability to fly them in the next game. So it's a lose-lose situation you propose.


_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
NOT an Egosoft employee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Denaut





Joined: 16 Nov 2013



PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 14:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
I completely disagree. First, it's not going to happen in Rebirth. Second, if fighters were dropped, the player won't have the ability to fly them in the next game. So it's a lose-lose situation you propose.


There is a deep and pointless overlap between the 2 disparate gameplay concepts. They both occupy the same role in the game space as small, fast, agile semi-permanent but slightly disposable damage delivery vectors. The fact that fighters occupy exactly the same role as drones but require significantly more thought and micromanagement for very little gain clearly indicates that the game would be better served by a drone overhaul.

For Rebirth you wouldn't necessarily remove fighters (they are already in after all) but you could overhaul and add content to the drone system to make it robust and useful effectively replacing fighters for the player. At that point they would be an "if you want to" part of the game but the new drone system would effectively replace them in gameplay terms.

This would also obviate the need for Egosoft to introduce fighter carriers into the game, which would likely be a larger and more difficult project. Since the tech/AI for handling drone "docking" and deployment already exists, creating another duplicate system is a waste of resources. Those resources are better spent on improving the existing system.


As for the new game, that is something entirely different, but I think the new game would also be better served by consolidating and improving overlapping gameplay concepts. This entails examining the roles that each type of spacecraft serves and consolidating the redundant elements. This allows them to use resources making fewer systems better rather than many systems none of which are fully fleshed out. A good candidate for this is removing fighters to expand drones and corvettes into any gaps that may produce. Player's being able to fly other ships has little to nothing to do with this suggestions, although I personally I one of the best ideas rebirth had was to create a special "player" ship type, they just executed the idea terribly.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
UniTrader
Moderator (Script&Mod)
Moderator (Script&Mod)

MEDAL

Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 13476 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 17:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

i also wouldnt drop fighters, but simplify their management instead. also they should be more distinct from drones.


Drones should be extremely maneuverable and have high accel (enough that humans are unable to endure it), basically the light Fighters role - but they also should be plain stupid - when given an order they will perform it until done and then just idle or return, but never make any descisions (as required per anti-agi-law).

Fighters on the other hand should be given the Bomber/heavy fighters role, less speed and maneuverability but at least endurable by humans. Also they can make descisions and give orders to a wing of drones (its size depends on Pilot Skill). Also there should be few Pilots with awesome abilities when you have trained them for a long time.


Also management of Pilots should be simpler - except for the aforementioned Elite Pilots make them more like the faceless masses of Marines instead of managing every single of them.


_________________
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter Wink

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Posts: 6700 on topic
Location: UK
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 17:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Alternatively, or as a third class, stick the Fighter Pilots on the their commanding Capital or Station, and have them remotely piloting their Fighter from there. Supports a distinction from Drones, and the gameplay around acquiring and training Pilots; reduces the loss of said Pilots.


_________________
X:R mod list. X:R Wiki.
Updated TC/AP Bonus Pack. AP TS efficiency.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 25844 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 18:58    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Or as a fourth class, leave Rebirth's fighters and drones as they are and get on with the next game. Return fighters to what they were in previous games. IMO, that was more fun, by far.


_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
NOT an Egosoft employee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
birdtable





Joined: 07 Feb 2004
Posts: 1308 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 19:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Fighters in previous X games were sheep to be shorn for their scrap value unless you required the Xenon L then you had to cajole it with loving kisses till it surrendered.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nanook
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)



Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 25844 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Wed, 1. Mar 17, 21:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

And they're better now? Rolling Eyes Personally, I found the fighters in TC and AP much more enjoyable to fly with and against. They felt much more substantial, not like a bunch of mosquitoes buzzing around and being annoying.

Give the X3 fighters a better AI is all that's really needed. And let the player capture and fly them, rather than just blow them up or sell those that bail as in the current game.


_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict and Albion Prelude.
NOT an Egosoft employee.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
Control Panel
Login Data
The time now is Wed, 13. Dec 17, 22:48

All times are GMT + 2 Hours


Board Security

Copyright © EGOSOFT 1989-2017
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Template created by Avatar & BurnIt!
Debug: page generation = 0.14299 seconds, sql queries = 29