How I want Egosoft to manage games (split from X4 wishlist thread. AP)

[Graaf]

More http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 98#4630698

Also read the posts that follow.

[Santi]

More http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 98#4630698

Also read the posts that follow.

I just read it, waiting patiently for something to happen.

Quoting myself as it seems it is not getting through.

Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

As a software developer I would not want any users to be involved in testing the early versions of any but the most trivial applications.

We have a dedicated team of testers. From my viewpoint the most deadly boring job I know of.

If you really want to check software to the level that these people do, then you really need to get trained up.

What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)

With games like the X series, the developer has to make the descisions on what features will appear in the game. Over the past 3 years I have seen some people banging there own drum as what is required in Rebirth, or what should be removed as a waste of time.

The number of times I have disagreed with posters is almost as high as the number I agree with them.

[Slashman]

As a software developer I would not want any users to be involved in testing the early versions of any but the most trivial applications.

We have a dedicated team of testers. From my viewpoint the most deadly boring job I know of.

We're really not talking about testing. Mostly about making suggestions and giving ideas and getting feedback on those ideas.

What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)

I've seen some very rough games in EA that I would consider alpha. This might be mostly quibbling over semantics at this point though.

With games like the X series, the developer has to make the descisions on what features will appear in the game. Over the past 3 years I have seen some people banging there own drum as what is required in Rebirth, or what should be removed as a waste of time.

The number of times I have disagreed with posters is almost as high as the number I agree with them.

Everyone has things they lean to more than others and things that they dislike. Sometimes you just may not get a desired feature because of whatever reason. That's fine. I really just want an X game that launches and doesn't require a year of patches to be decently playable with most of the bits working as intended.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

And the best way to achieve that?

Get a lot more dedicated testers involved in the early stages of development.

Which is not cheap.

On the topic of requests and responses. If a player has a request, then they should at least try to be civil in the formulation of that request.

I for one would not be inclined to respond to any post that started off with:

Such and such is a pile of S*** why don't you ******* well do something about it. Make it do this instead. Too many so called requests are just rants about some feature a player particularly dislikes.

[Slashman]

And the best way to achieve that?

Get a lot more dedicated testers involved in the early stages of development.

Which is not cheap.

Maybe not, but then the alternative is more angry/dissatisfied customers. I guess choices get made and they have consequences.

On the topic of requests and responses. If a player has a request, then they should at least try to be civil in the formulation of that request.

I for one would not be inclined to respond to any post that started off with:

Such and such is a pile of S*** why don't you ******* well do something about it. Make it do this instead. Too many so called requests are just rants about some feature a player particularly dislikes.

I absolutely agree. But I also have observed that there are much less of those types of posts if your game is stable, playable and has most features working from the get go.

Realistically, you will never stop those types of posts (it's the internet). However, if most of your other customers are happy, they will usually be the first to explain to that ranter why they might be wrong or what they might be missing. The better received your game, the more those ranters are going to stick out and look like the socially challenged individuals they are.

[Graaf]

Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

You make it sound like they haven't done anything about the thread at all, which isn't true either.

[Santi]

Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

You make it sound like they haven't done anything about the thread at all, which isn't true either.

Ok, first I read the posts and nothing happened, now this. Could you please elaborate a bit in what you are trying to say and give it a bit of context because I honestly do not get what you mean. Many thanks.

[BigBANGtheory]

What most people mean by early / alpha releases is more akin to beta than alpha. They want to test the features of the game and how "good" / "useful" / "fun" they are (all subjective.)

Subjective - yes and no it depends on the person and purpose. The most imporant point though (even if you subscribe to it being wholly subective) is that there is a subjective PoV and influence to be made and are you capable of making it internally? Imho this is a potential danger of DevNet because people who think the same way naturally attract the same audience. So what you risk ending up with is niche thoughts and opinions being supported by a niche group of players/supporters.

Or if you want to put it another way does an engineer make their own desicions subjectively as to how a product is developed.... Sometimes yes, sometimes no they need the input from an artist or architect.

You need to be very careful not to use the term subjective as a reason not to do something implying it has little to no value. The collective subjective opinion is ultimately what will define the quality of a product. Sure not everyone will agree but you do need a critical mass of positive reception to maintain/grow a customer base.

It is Egosoft's risk at the end of the day I'd like to see them be successful as much as the next person. They get some good advice and thoughts from the community as well as garbage its down to them to navigate the complexities and what works for them. We can but make suggestions...

[Ketraar]

It is Egosoft's risk at the end of the day I'd like to see them be successful as much as the next person. They get some good advice and thoughts from the community as well as garbage its down to them to navigate the complexities and what works for them. We can but make suggestions...

This line should also be made into a banner, as it assumes you have the notion of your place in the universe and thus can do sensible sugestions.

Unless its ranting about the lack of RTS style fleet management... *hides*

MFG

Ketraar

[bambikaka]

Unless its ranting about the lack of RTS style fleet management... *hides*

MFG

Ketraar

now this once i agree

[Graaf]

Do not get confused, I am defending that there is a time and a place for the community to get involved when creating a game otherwise things gets messy. I am not discussing the contents of the X3 patch but how difficult it is to get feedback from such a thread for the Devs. Kudos to them because sorting through 55 pages is no mean feat.

You make it sound like they haven't done anything about the thread at all, which isn't true either.

Ok, first I read the posts and nothing happened, now this. Could you please elaborate a bit in what you are trying to say and give it a bit of context because I honestly do not get what you mean. Many thanks.

*Sigh*

Another one http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 39#4580039 confirming that they are following the thread.

Page 45, Posted Jan 24, 2016 saying they already evaluated the suggestions up to mid-Dec 2015, which would be pages 42/43.

So that leaves only 12/13 pages to evaluate.

76% reduction right there. No need to thank me.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I think a lot of the problems that arise with peoples requests is one that occurs frequently in life.

The customer asks for a chair. Their vision is a luxury recliner with built in fridge, massage unit and entertainment console.

The analyst sees a beautifully handcrafted wooden rocking chair with a wine rack and mobile phone holder.

The craftsman produces a three legged stool.

The dream, its interpretation, and what is possible given all of the constraints.

[X2-Illuminatus]

[ external image ]

[RAVEN.myst]

First off, I'm likely to omit something along the way, by accident - my main screen has popped, after many many years of faithful service and taking abuse from the horribly third-world power grid here, and so I find myself having to "operate" (read: "squint at, and flip windows on) on a single old CRT (which normally serves only to show Task Manager, hardware monitoring tools, and movies when I'm not in "high-attention mode") *VIOLENT DRY HEAVING* I have several more lying around the place, but turns out that my DSub-DVI converters don't fit, being from a previous generation of DVI, and while I *could* pull out the excess pins (which are superfluous), I don't feel like risking adding my graphics card to my recent hardware failures (modem-router a few months ago, main hard disk about 2 months ago, now my screen, keyboard asking to be replaced, etc - this is getting expensive ) So, in advance, please excuse the potentially compromised quality of this post.

If you really want to check software to the level that these people do, then you really need to get trained up.

That pretty much sums it up, and to the point. People need to have a certain degree of qualification for the task, instead of simply feeling entitled to be heard. This is what I mean by "the unqualified masses", though Mr President of the Galaxy was much clearer about it (I guess it does pay to have two heads...)

We're really not talking about testing. Mostly about making suggestions and giving ideas and getting feedback on those ideas.

Although suggestions at al is where the thread has meandered to, in fact it BEGAN with (see first post in thread)

You guys never think out side of the bun with your wish list.

Your wish list should say the following, "let us into the Alpha"...

As a software developer I would not want any users to be involved in testing the early versions of any but the most trivial applications.

A good distinction: I was saying simply flat-out "no", but I think this is better - some of the most trivial aspects could certainly be opened up. Of course, the definition of what's "trivial" would rest completely within the developers' discretion.

The collective subjective opinion is ultimately what will define the quality of a product. Sure not everyone will agree but you do need a critical mass of positive reception to maintain/grow a customer base.

I think this is particularly true in a luxury/entertainment product (such as a game), where it is pretty much all about personal satisfaction, and more objective metrics/benchmarks are less relevant. (Of course even, let's say, a productivity suite, which is intended to fulfill a spectrum of professional functions in a work environment, must still be appealing and comfortable to use, even sometimes when a certain approach may be less logical from a programmer's perspective, and conversely a game also has SOME objective standards to meet - a certain level of stability, for example.)


@X2-Illuminatus: Hahahahah! Nice, an oldie but a definite goodie - thank you for digging it up, I'm saving it to disk right now


Edit: Fixed a broken quote - Sparky

[Slashman]

Although suggestions at al is where the thread has meandered to, in fact it BEGAN with (see first post in thread)

Ah I see. Somehow missed that.

In any case, developers don't usually let people into alphas that they don't specifically prep for public use. That's what EA is for and if they do it, then I expect that it will be done sensibly. I also am expecting that they have a decent sized testing team this time and that they launch smoothly.

Probably way too much optimism but as I'm waiting for day 1 reviews again, I can't see the harm in being hopeful. Or, as was the case with Arkham Knight, quick refunds!

[RAVEN.myst]

In any case, developers don't usually let people into alphas that they don't specifically prep for public use.

Good point.

Probably way too much optimism but as I'm waiting for day 1 reviews again,

I'm very leery of those - I used to review games for a living, for a couple of print magazines, and as a result, because of the month-long publishing cycle (as opposed to online instant-publishing), I usually had a fair amount of time to hit those games hard, depending on when the release date was relative to our publishing cycle (when it was too close to deadline, we usually held back the review till the next issue.) Yes, print has the disadvantage in terms of immediacy - but certainly scores on the "look before you leap" aspect. See, I mainly specialised in RTS, grand-strategy, puzzle, role-playing, tactical role-playing, city-builder, management and simulation titles (as well as picking up the slack when other specialists were overworked by a particular genre dominating at the time) - you can see a pattern there: I mainly did time-consuming games. Now, games like that simply CANNOT be fairly gauged on day-1 (unless the reviewer gets early insider access to a release version of the game - happens very seldom, even with strict NDAs, and often the samples are NOT quite release-grade - which is why publishers tend to avoid this practice, as it's likely to cast a more negative light on their product, especially if the reviewer is inexperienced and fails to factor in the unfinished status.) In fact, on months when I had more than 2 titles to review, and ~3 weeks to do so, I felt really hard-pressed. Yes, arguably some FPS shooters (not all of them!) CAN be evaluated *reasonably* fairly in a day, but even then it's sub-optimal.

Personally, I have zero trust in day-1 reviews (especially given my preferences in game types), as they can't help being superficial, and thus easy for the developer to manipulate by focusing on flash over substance (which, to me, leads to hollow games that fail to keep me interested.) I prefer to see opinions after the novelty has worn off (and, to be fair, also any initial shocks that people may at first overreact to, given the general public's very jerky knees...)

I can't see the harm in being hopeful.

True - no point being preemptively bitter or negative. I tend more toward "Hope for the best, expect/prepare for the worst" - this way, I'm also not too optimistic ie. less likely to be disappointed.
Heh, this reminds me of an old chestnut: The Power of Negative Thinking: Hey, an optimist can never be pleasantly surprised, right? A pessimist, on the other hand, can never be disappointed. (Talk about cynical! hehehehe)

[bambikaka]

you guys have a huge mistake... nobody want to tell ego how to program their AI, thats really only for the insiders and maybe those have similar experience/education. the thread began with giving advice on how AI should behave for the end user and well, very very much EVERYBODY who ever played similar games can happily talk about it. that needs zero education or insight dont even mention that the OP advices ARE freekin good. I wish ego would have the intuition to pull something like that because it needs nothing else. whoever can write a script can do those things. so...

[RAVEN.myst]

...that needs zero education or insight ...

While I'm moistly not going to engage (I'm hungry and MUST go make something to eat - I haven't eaten all day, yet it's been a trying day to say the least!), I do find that the quoted generalisation to be rather dangerous (and naive - the statement itself, that is, I'm not flinging insults here.) According to the above, if taken literally, then someone who has never ever seen a computer, is still learning how to use the potty and how to feed him/herself, doesn't know numbers or letters yet - that person is somehow qualified to give advice? *ahem!*

...giving advice on how AI should behave for the end user and well, very very much EVERYBODY who ever played similar games can happily talk about it.

Oh I see...! But wait: those two statements contradict each other. Just saying... In any case, I still have to disagree - just because someone played a game doesn't mean that person understood it. EVERYBODY who ever played similar games can certainly talk about it - it doesn't mean that talk is going to amount to anything of worth (colour me arrogant, but I call it as I see it,,,)

Bon apetit (to me) (still have no idea what I'm going to eat... Ideas, anyone? Advice? )

[bambikaka]

...that needs zero education or insight ...

While I'm moistly not going to engage (I'm hungry and MUST go make something to eat - I haven't eaten all day, yet it's been a trying day to say the least!), I do find that the quoted generalisation to be rather dangerous (and naive - the statement itself, that is, I'm not flinging insults here.) According to the above, if taken literally, then someone who has never ever seen a computer, is still learning how to use the potty and how to feed him/herself, doesn't know numbers or letters yet - that person is somehow qualified to give advice? *ahem!*

this was very poor but, yeah, you know, how things work in real life or what should have what role... even a total illiterate can talk about on a meaningful depth and he might tell more interesting and valid things than you... also, that you are derogating my post with intentionally misinterpreting IS pretty insulting in any discussion.

...giving advice on how AI should behave for the end user and well, very very much EVERYBODY who ever played similar games can happily talk about it.

Oh I see...! But wait: those two statements contradict each other. Just saying... In any case, I still have to disagree - just because someone played a game doesn't mean that person understood it. EVERYBODY who ever played similar games can certainly talk about it - it doesn't mean that talk is going to amount to anything of worth (colour me arrogant, but I call it as I see it,,,)

why would they contradict? oh hey, they arent... playing the game and having insight into game-development are not the same things.


Edit: Quotes fixed - Sparky