Veteran-level question: hostile build-locs

General discussions about X Rebirth.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Post Reply
RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Veteran-level question: hostile build-locs

Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 2. Dec 16, 22:25

OK, so there's something I haven't tested as it would take too long. Definite answers only, please, as I've already done all the speculating in my own head :D (I've since reset the voices back to "sing" mode...) OK, here it is:

What are the EXACT implications/repercussions of building on a hostile build location, specifically a Plutarch-jurisdiction one in a plot game? I know that I can issue the build order, and construction will, in fact, commence - that's as far as I've tested. The potential options, as far as I figure, would be:

1. Plutarch ships attack the station as soon as they get in range of it
2a. Plutarch treat the station in the same manner as they treat non-combat vessels, ie. they let it be unless its guns aggress.
2b. As above, but additionally Plutarch attack the station if it contains restricted resources (because the player can't have the appropriate license from PMC during the main plot after exodus to DV)
3. Plutarch ignore the station altogether.

So, anyone who has tested long-term existence of a station within PMC jurisdiction territory, or anyone who has seen the relevant code, with an answer to this?

Thanks in advance. :)
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

w.evans
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue, 18. Nov 14, 16:23
x4

Post by w.evans » Sat, 3. Dec 16, 11:28

Upon reading your post, i was going to peek in the scripts (did) and answer with something really clever (?), but come to think of it, i'm not entirely sure.

Patrolling ships do look for stations, but whether or not they decide to be interested in them is defined by whether or not they can attack your stations depending on relations. As i think you know, with ships, this is fairly clear: there's a boundary that delineates between attacking just your military ships and all-out war, and it's pretty easy to tell whether a ship is a combat ship or not. What is NOT clear is whether or not stations are considered military.

For ships, objectpurpose is defined in the ship macro files which are in human-readable xml. (sort of. at least they're not in binary!) But the station build-tree macros have no such definition, which usually means they revert to some default which i have been unable to find.

From anecdotal evidence, can't say either. The last time i played with lots of stations, i set them up as battle stations covering jump beacon zones with defence officers instructed to shoot on sight, so yeah, they came under attack fairly routinely. (and won pretty routinely! these things, when kitted out with full turret loadouts, are extremely powerful.)

.......
update: ok, quickly wrote a small script to find all stations in the game and quickly query them as to their primary purpose, and they all came back "null". so no defaults defined, apparently. what this means for purposes of determining whether or not they're fair game for attack given particular relations, dunno.

best guess: would think that the may attack conditions for the "attack military ships" relation is something like "if relations between this object and that are greater than x and less than y and that object has objectpurpose.fight" (don't know for sure. probably written in code.) which would mean that, no, if you are not at all-out war with a faction, they'll keep your stations alone.

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Sat, 3. Dec 16, 11:52

Thanks for the research effort and the detailed response. Your guess lines up with my current assumption. Unless some even better info comes along, I guess I'll eventually end up resorting to building some tempting-looking targets in conspicuous places (once I get bored of conventional play in my current game - at almost 6 days game-time in, I'm rapidly approaching that point), and seeing what happens... :D (I'll test with and without "contraband" stock.)

Incidentally, since you are in the habit of building stations as weapons platforms, I assume you're aware of how strong ArmsTech Fabs (and their OL equivalent) are, in light of their uniquely extensive weapon mounts (including plasma jets.)
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

w.evans
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue, 18. Nov 14, 16:23
x4

Post by w.evans » Sat, 3. Dec 16, 12:03

RAVEN.myst wrote:I assume you're aware of how strong ArmsTech Fabs (and their OL equivalent) are, in light of their uniquely extensive weapon mounts (including plasma jets.)
Wasn't aware of that, actually. Will take a look, but i tend to avoid weapon factories in general because i find that they don't tend to be very profitable.

Tend to select station type by what i might need and profitability, in that order, and select station location by strategy and, well, sometimes profitability or production efficiency is affected by location a bit unless i completely depend on capital ships and manually delivering wares for sale (which can start to suck once station numbers go up to the double digits).

From firepower, it doesn't seem to matter much which type as long as their Targon Tracer coverage is decent. HIVI/MA to poke hostile ships and call them over, then just sheer number of bullets to finish them off. But, yeah, JET/LRs on a station would be fun to see at least once.

That said, the last time i played with lots of stations was pre-4.0 so the Very Hard groups weren't around yet. Having played around with these big groups over the past week or so (or CWIR if i decide to take that particular plunge), may make sense to take a look at the various station types' potential armament and have that weigh on selection as well. Thanks for the tip!

hisazul
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat, 15. Oct 11, 04:12
xr

Post by hisazul » Tue, 13. Dec 16, 06:33

Yes weapon manufacturing stations are deadly because unlike all other stations they use some peculiar weapons like plasma jets and other missile systems not just v.

But from personal experience if you want a station to be... how should I put it, IZ safe spot? refueling stations beat everything bar nothing. They are small and they have full coverage also they have very few modules so require a lot less time to build. Weapon fabs may mount some absurdly powerful weaponry but astrobees have no range and plasma jet only works well vs player... when ai shoots ai... it can't hit the broad side of a barn with it, straifing boosting barrel rolling player gets insta gibbed tho. Meh...

To answer your initial question, purely based on personal experience. Yes you can, no it is not worth it. The thing about stations in hostile environment is that they will nuke anything IZ but OOZ... meh. Just MEH. Second problem comes in form of ships assigned to that station... you will be replacing them so much that station is unlikely to be profitable. NPC ships respawn... place it in a bad spot where something like Olmekron and all your miners are now in danger. You would think that's where defending ships come in... and you'd be wrong... if it's a large faction then there are hostile stations and any defensive ships are useless because sooner or later they will get nuked but it.

It's a matter of what you want, where and what you are facing. If it's a standard faction and your rep isn't that bad they will leave most of your assets alone even if they are red. If you are facing permanently hostile factions and theres a station of theirs and a repsawn for capital ship... don't even bother.

On unrelated note. From having a save with a few hundred stations my best advice... say screw it to already existing zones. Build in unknown zones... never get attacked by random rubbish unless it's REALLY right next to a louzy zone with lots of patrolling respawning ships. Most zones let you build 2 stations... you spend absurd amount of time thinking about positioning, distance, proximity, etc.... then you finally build in an empty lot and realize that you can build 7 stations in ONE zone and you won't get attacked and proximity isn't really that important unless you build it wayyyy off grid and rely on things that pass through gates.
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.” - Albert Einstein

Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 8074
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
x4

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Tue, 13. Dec 16, 08:28

In addition to losses of defending ships through attrition, all player-owned ships (plus cargo) will become impounded for a while during the plot. That could break your economy too.

So if building in Albion before entering DV, I'd suggest placing compatible stations in the same zone as each other and letting them trade with each other via their equipt Construction URVs. Friendly NPCs can be allowed to supply raw ingredients and buy products - typically slower than capitals assigned to stations, but risk free. You're probably familiar with setting up who you want your managers to trade with but there's info on the wiki here in case helpful.

I can't find the thread now but IIRC, someone was expressing disappointment with ships aquired in Albion before entering DV not all being returned by the plot later. I don't know if that was confirmed or other but using Construction URVs for Intra-zone station trade would be a precaution against that possibility.

The turrets equipable to player-ownable stations are listed on the wiki with building material requirements here. Similarly for the unique stations that some NPC factions have.

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 13. Dec 16, 09:49

@Hisazul: Just to clarify, I am specifically interested in the situation where the relations are such that military ships are attacked but civilian ones aren't (such as PMC during most of the plot, locked at -20). However, that situation is temporary - once the plot is completed, the reputation is unlocked, and then since the stations' DENSE Officers can't be ordered to retaliate only, relations will inevitably decline by the stations actively shooting at passers-by of the faction in question. So your comments are pertinent.

As for founding a personal zone (or zones) in empty space: yes, this is something I've become quite fond of doing, even though I then can't place stations next to compatible clients - then again, I've seen zero benefit to that (wares are supposed to be ferried around by CLURVs and/or mass-traffic civilian ships, but I've seen ZERO evidence of this, despite carefully watching dozen of stations per game, in several games, and ALWAYS placing stations next to customers when possible - the wares ONLY EVER move by means of freighters, from what I've seen.) So, building a "caltrop" of 7 stations in one zone is definitely very appealing to me, especially as then I can assign mostly M-size freighters to shuttle stuff between them.

However, something everyone seems to have missed, is in fact the very crux of my question: building ON HOSTILE LOCATIONS (not simply "in hostile areas") - ie. where the box icon showing the build site is red, because the zone in question is within hostile jurisdiction (such as everywhere in Albion except Exhaustless Mines and PMC in the plot.) What are the implications of that specific condition? The rest I already knew - it's this specific question, though, that I still don't have any new info on. So, for now, I will keep refraining from building on red, as there is no serious benefit, while undocumented/unanswered perils are possible - poor risk vs benefits.
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

Sparky Sparkycorp
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 8074
Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
x4

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Tue, 13. Dec 16, 10:37

I wouldn't say I missed the build location part - I just thought you meant you would be building before you enter DV, while PMC are not hostile.

Having said that, I have never tried to do that. Maybe the plot doesn't allow station construction in Albion's main zones at that point? That would be an easy test.

AFAIK, we can't initiate building in hostile-controlled sectors (e.g. hostile build spots).

RAVEN.myst
Posts: 2585
Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
x3tc

Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 13. Dec 16, 11:54

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:I wouldn't say I missed the build location part - I just thought you meant you would be building before you enter DV, while PMC are not hostile.

Having said that, I have never tried to do that. Maybe the plot doesn't allow station construction in Albion's main zones at that point? That would be an easy test.

AFAIK, we can't initiate building in hostile-controlled sectors (e.g. hostile build spots).
Building on those locations is allowed, even when they are red. I've tested it as far as ordering the CV and it deploying, though that's as far as I went. Therefore, the long-term implications I haven't tested, as it could take some time for them to rear their heads, and I didn't fancy wasting THAT much time, and having to backtrack possibly several game days. I only started building stations after the point when PMC declares me PNG (in every playthrough - that happens early enough that I am still busy setting up my trade agents at that point, and in fact have to delay my eviction until I finish that particular chore). In the end (as always when I develop in both Albion and DV [in earlier games I only built in DV, meaning that I had to pirate RMPs to launch my economy]), I ended up merely building in Exhaustless Mines (non-jurisdictional - odd that HoA's "heart", namely Gemstone Manufacture, is still PMC-policed even once the civil war starts), then expanding into un-zoned space between Exhaustless Mines and GemMan.

Incidentally, I could swear that in an early (~2.0, I think, or perhaps even earlier) version, there was a bit more non-PMC space in Albion... And I'm guessing there must have even been some HoA-policed space at some point (perhaps only beta?), as otherwise what's the point of their licenses? (And, for that matter, why HAVE those hung around...?)
-
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
-
Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
-
The Write Stuff

Post Reply

Return to “X Rebirth Universe”