[MOD] Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks

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w.evans
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Post by w.evans » Sat, 9. Apr 16, 18:50

you could. they should vanilla flee when they're no longer in combat though. (captain's details shows "escorting" rather than "attacking") don't they?

debstar2610
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Post by debstar2610 » Sat, 9. Apr 16, 19:19

w.evans wrote:you could. they should vanilla flee when they're no longer in combat though. (captain's details shows "escorting" rather than "attacking") don't they?
Yes, they use Vanilla flee, .. sometimes or too late, ..and with the vanila flee jump ...they just die at a jump beacon full of ennemies lol
THe captain is not attacking but is 'escorting '.

w.evans
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Post by w.evans » Sat, 9. Apr 16, 19:21

heh

debstar2610
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Post by debstar2610 » Tue, 12. Apr 16, 22:07

Hi

I may have a possible issue with the supp2 .

Sometimes, when travelling between Zones, on ship is left behind.
It is like, the ship is stuck in the empty zone between the Departure zone and Arrival.

It is as if the ship is running something forever. I have to make it join my formation then leave, then re-assign new superior, to un-stuck it.

I think it s already a known issue but not completely resolved ?
(there is big comments in the Mict.move.escort.capital )

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Post by MickDick » Sun, 24. Apr 16, 04:45

Reporting an incompatibility.


Fleet supported boarding.

CES is compatible with it. Thus, I am certain it is this mod which I recently installed, that therefore broke it, is the source of the incompatibility.

Either attempting to board with fleet ships with you simply doesn't work, or, it works the one time, but surviving marines aren't returned to their ships, so you have to rehire another 150+

Also, of course I used the CES compatible version. Also, despite using that version, which also claims to not use tactical jumps, it does so regardless.


Really hope to see a solution. What I've seen of this mod is pretty good. I in fact found this mod looking for a solution to capships not boosting to meet the enemy, and instead boosting into the edge of the zone, only to at 60-80 speed from 30+ Kilometers, which takes a ludicrous amount of time, was perfectly solved.

w.evans
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Post by w.evans » Sun, 24. Apr 16, 10:49

Would be very surprised if there's an incompatibility with Fleet supported boarding since I've been using it since before it came out and I and Marvin modify completely different files between this mod and that one. Would not have been so surprised if there's a compatibility between FSB and Marine Rebalance, but we ironed those out early with suggestions from Marvin.

That you mentioned the CES edition of MICT doing tactical jumps suggests that you might have more than one copy of MICT installed though. Did you subscribe to the Miscellaneous Combat Tweaks in Steam? If you have both that and the CES edition installed, they would conflict. Nothing serious, one would be loaded rather than the other, and it sounds like the Steam version is loading in your case. You could check your extensions directory to make sure that you don't have a folder called w.e_mct. If you do, unsubscribing from the mod in the Steam Workshop should get rid of it.

@debstar2610, no those issues should have been ironed out a long time ago. Are we talking big ships or small ships getting left behind?

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Post by BoostHungry » Sun, 24. Apr 16, 21:26

Feature request: Better System Defense Commands

The existing Patrol and Attack All Enemies in Zone commands seem to wear off after a while, and sometimes the ships end up in empty space where they go idle. This leaves me to babysit my ships and make sure zones are properly defended, which is vitally important when playing with the CWIR mod.

I've tried assigning ships to the DO of stations, and this helps with ensuring the ships don't lose their order and go idle for no reason, but I still have other problems. Ships often chase ships into empty space or sometimes they chase all the way to another zone, sometimes a very hostile zone where I need to manually recall the ship before it goes and gets itself blown up.

When a ship is assigned to the DO of a station, can you provide some better logic so a ship will boost back to the core of the zone if it starts wandering too far? Ships do seem to fly back to the zone when they leave the zone, but they do this on normal engine speed and it takes forever and they don't properly react to enemies while they slowing make their way back.

I'd also love to be able to have ships protect a zone without having to assign them to a station, even be able to guard something like a jump point so they're in position as hostiles jump in and try to immediately burn out to another zone in my system.

I'd love if I could have a squad of ships protecting a zone, but each protecting it individually where the squad is just used for grouping. Currently I don't find squads very useful because only the leader of the squad reacts to threats and the others eventually follow. When attacking a hostile ship, swarming the ship is key otherwise it can much more easily escape.

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Post by Lord Crc » Tue, 26. Apr 16, 09:14

I'm using the Steam Workshop version, and I didn't read all 80+ pages so maybe this has been fixed/improved.

If nothing better to do (ie a capship nearby), Balors seems to fire their missile volleys at fighter ships. The missiles are almost entirely useless against fighters due to turning rate.

This is a big problem if a capship turns up just a bit later, as the Balor will now be waiting for the reload, which takes quite some time.

In addition, if I have a Balor in my squad and I order it to attack a capship, once the missiles are away, it will move in to engage it with its turrets. This is of course a very, very bad idea.


I'd love for the Balor to never consider firing missiles at anything less than a capship. If I order it to attack a fighter it should move to attack with turrets. And if I order it to attack a capital ships it should be the exact opposite: never move in to attack with turrets, only attack with missiles.


Anyway, great mod! Got a light sul and a heavy sul, and 4 balors (thanks to some kind cartel bosses), and been having some great fun.

I also note the balors seem to work very well if assigned to a station DO and a stray sovereign syndicate titurel decides to come for a visit.

w.evans
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Post by w.evans » Tue, 31. May 16, 20:46

Thought I'd bring up a problem mentioned by The Puppeteer and confirmed by Eightball in the Steam forum. Problem is a consequence of a fix I did to an earlier problem. To wit:

Sometimes a Sucellus jumps almost directly above or below a target. In that case, it cannot (hard-coded limitation, looks like) turn directly above or below to orient their main gun.

Fix was to have them detect that they are in such a position, find a better position, and jump there. So far, have not encountered a situation where this correction jump fails.

Problem is this correction jump does not use the check for jump fuel. So if a ship does not have fuel left, it will stay in place while charging up its jump drive, and you have no idea what the hell is happening.

Solutions that occurred to me are:

- Have the correction jump use no fuel.
Pros:
+ easiest to implement (literally just a switch),
+ costs nothing to you since the flaw wasn't your fault anyway,
+ gets to position very quickly.
Cons:
+ sucks. why would this particular jump cost no jump fuel?

- Have them check for fuel as usual; and if no fuel, boost or move to the new position.
Pros:
+ more consistent with the rest of the behavior.
Cons:
+ takes longer to get in position,
+ takes a wee bit more time to implement. possibly a lot more to test.

Opinions?

_____
Sorry for the long delay.
Lord Crc wrote:If nothing better to do (ie a capship nearby), Balors seems to fire their missile volleys at fighter ships. The missiles are almost entirely useless against fighters due to turning rate.

...

I'd love for the Balor to never consider firing missiles at anything less than a capship.
Right. Suggest setting your Balors' Defence Officers to "defend" to keep them from firing torpedoes until you decide that they should. They do inherit their squadron commander's defence officer's setting, so you could put them all in a squad, and order the whole squad to open fire when you think they're ready. Will consider an outright prohibition to firing on small ships, but think having you have the option to authorize it if you want to for some reason is better.

Repeat for clarity, they are NOT authorized to fire torpedoes if the defence officer is set to "defend."
Lord_Crc wrote:In addition, if I have a Balor in my squad and I order it to attack a capship, once the missiles are away, it will move in to engage it with its turrets. This is of course a very, very bad idea.

...

If I order it to attack a fighter it should move to attack with turrets. And if I order it to attack a capital ships it should be the exact opposite: never move in to attack with turrets, only attack with missiles.
This sounds like a bug. They should not close in to engage UNLESS their primary target is a small ship. Do you happen to remember if they closed in with just regular engines? (No jumping or boosting?) That's usually an indication that they're targeting a small ship. That in itself is also odd though unless the capship was beyond radar range when they received the order to attack, and the most dangerous thing they spotted is a small ship close to a capship.
Lord_Crc wrote:I also note the balors seem to work very well if assigned to a station DO and a stray sovereign syndicate titurel decides to come for a visit.
No difference. If assigned to a station, they're set to patrol. If they're MICT-capable, or are a MICT squadron, they'll run MICT when they engage any opposition. That said, glad those are doing well.

_____
BoostHungry wrote:When a ship is assigned to the DO of a station, can you provide some better logic so a ship will boost back to the core of the zone if it starts wandering too far? Ships do seem to fly back to the zone when they leave the zone, but they do this on normal engine speed and it takes forever and they don't properly react to enemies while they slowing make their way back.
I ... don't ... particularly ... want to? But I'll take a look at move.seekenemies. I seem to remember a radius setting that could be passed in there so that they keep to that radius. Don't think they'll pursue enemies past that radius though, so solution might be less than ideal.
BoostHungry wrote:I'd also love to be able to have ships protect a zone without having to assign them to a station, even be able to guard something like a jump point so they're in position as hostiles jump in and try to immediately burn out to another zone in my system.
Patrol command shouldn't ever time out. Just loops around, and I find that it's actually a good fallback command in case all else fails since they stay responsive. Are you sure you had a ship patrol and later found it doing something other than patrolling or attacking?
BoostHungry wrote:I'd love if I could have a squad of ships protecting a zone, but each protecting it individually where the squad is just used for grouping.
Should already be the case. They move in formation, but patrolling authorizes the whole squadron to engage, so they actively scan their radar for hostiles and individually engage if any are found. At least, I think that's how I wrote that bit. I'll take another look.

edit: yup, if any particular escort or their commander finds a target, they individually move to engage.

Only additional mandatory condition is a safety check from vanilla to make sure that the hostile target they found is not, in fact, their commander. Decided to keep that in for sanity's sake.

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Post by pref » Wed, 1. Jun 16, 02:55

Why should a jump cost fuel that only exist to fix pathing issues?
The jump on its own is a bit immersion breaking, sounds enough for punishment.

At least this is what i figured when i was in a very similar situation... guess you would use a single move_to and no jump if it was possible to align the ships that way.
Also in my case going the move/boost way caused so much delay in cases that the ship missed the whole party.

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Marvin Martian
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Post by Marvin Martian » Wed, 1. Jun 16, 08:18

i think also that tactical IZ-jumps should possible without charging or fuelcosts, therefor you have already a last-jump timestamp, that can be higher in case for balance

the problem is on longer turns or long charge the claculated position is completly outdatet at execution that it was finally a useless move

maybe if it's necessary to stay close at vanilla behavior, use wait for charging - calculate position and jump then immediately

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Post by Ezarkal » Wed, 1. Jun 16, 22:26

I normally don't ask questions about mod inter-relations, but since you're involved with the development of CWIR I'll indulge here:

Does your mod affect the behavior of the CWIR Sucellus Vanguard Destroyer the same way it affect the behaviour of the vanilla Sucellus? I've been making a hold out against xenons in Ma-BR-prevarication and my sucellus vanguards almost never use their IHC canons. (All 5 star captains)

I thought they simply didn't have time since most xenon capships are only there for a minute before they jump again, But even against those that stay and fight I almost never see the big guns firing.

I'll do more tests soon and try to further confirm the behavior.
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Lord Crc
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Post by Lord Crc » Wed, 1. Jun 16, 22:53

w.evans wrote:- Have the correction jump use no fuel.
FWIW I vote this. The game will also make capships jump without fuel if they can't buy any so there is precedence.
w.evans wrote:Right. Suggest setting your Balors' Defence Officers to "defend" to keep them from firing torpedoes until you decide that they should. They do inherit their squadron commander's defence officer's setting, so you could put them all in a squad, and order the whole squad to open fire when you think they're ready. Will consider an outright prohibition to firing on small ships, but think having you have the option to authorize it if you want to for some reason is better.
Hmm the problem I have with using Defend is that I need to babysit them, as they'll let their commander's ship get blasted to pieces without doing anything.
w.evans wrote:
Lord_Crc wrote:In addition, if I have a Balor in my squad and I order it to attack a capship, once the missiles are away, it will move in to engage it with its turrets. This is of course a very, very bad idea.
This sounds like a bug. They should not close in to engage UNLESS their primary target is a small ship. Do you happen to remember if they closed in with just regular engines? (No jumping or boosting?) That's usually an indication that they're targeting a small ship.
As far as I recall, yes they were moving with regular engines. But it looked like it was going straight for the capship. Which would make sense since I ordered to attack the capship, so why would it instead move to attack a fighter?

I'll see if I can reproduce it.
w.evans wrote:That in itself is also odd though unless the capship was beyond radar range when they received the order to attack, and the most dangerous thing they spotted is a small ship close to a capship.
The Balor was less than 10k from the capship when I ordered to attack IIRC.

I don't have much time these days for games, way too much at work, but I'll try to record a few battles next time.

Thanks again.

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Post by w.evans » Thu, 2. Jun 16, 00:00

Looks like we have it unanimous for the correction jump to not use fuel! Suits me just fine since that's the easiest, and shouldn't even require any testing. Will give it a couple more days to see if there are any more opinions on the matter.

Question is here, by the way:

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 86#4614286
Ezarkal wrote:Does your mod affect the behavior of the CWIR Sucellus Vanguard Destroyer the same way it affect the behaviour of the vanilla Sucellus?
Haven't kept up with latest CWIR, unfortunately, but we cooked up a way to communicate between mods and at one point, the Sucellus Vanguard Destroyer was registered with MICT, so it should use appropriate movement. That is, it should go to extreme big gun range, whatever extreme range is on that ship's gun, and keep front oriented to the target. As long as the gun is oriented on the target (low tolerance, only 10 degrees) it should fire. But if it's off by even a little bit past tolerance, the gun won't fire.

@Marvin, why wouldn't it make sense to use fuel for IZ jumps? Still uses the jump drive. Your idea with plotting position right before the jump: get_safe_pos, then fake the jump with an instantaneous warp? That would be extremely effective, but think it might be too effective. Absolutely no chance for error then. Might get boring.

@Lord Crc, they do actually use the vanilla back-up mechanism for jumping without fuel, but it takes a pretty long time to charge up. Like Marvin said, by that time, the position they plotted before starting to charge up probably won't make sense anymore.

Repro for that Balor case would be extremely useful. If you explicitly ordered the Balor to attack the capship, then it should not have targeted anything else. Could happen if the Balor was in a squadron, and the squadron commander were ordered to attack the capship, but again, not if the capship was only 10km away which is well within the Balor's radar range.

@pref, point. And yes, a single move_to would be the back-up plan as outlined in option 2. Would probably need to at least track to the target after the move_to since even a boosted move takes time; but they should already do that except if they have to track directly upwards or downwards, which they can't, possibly necessitating yet another correction.

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Post by pref » Thu, 2. Jun 16, 00:38

I'd be curious to hear others experience, but mine is that its just impossible to have coordinated movement without these alignment jumps.
If memory serves me right a single turn when move_to begins can take more then 20 secs while the ship is stationary, which means the target is likely out of range or too close by the time its done.

I found another capship movement mode where they start to move before adjusting direction, but with that turn rate there is no way they can move in a controlled fashion - probably on boost they would take 3 zones worth of space for a single 90deg turn.

There was another move type, but that looked rather immersion breaking - resulted in ships boosting sideways and other weird things.

If you figure a way to have a capship move in a controlled way please tell me how (i mean reduce the delay until they align and start to move towards the target from 20-30sec to below 10 or so)..

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Post by Marvin Martian » Thu, 2. Jun 16, 09:22

w.evans wrote:@Marvin, why wouldn't it make sense to use fuel for IZ jumps? Still uses the jump drive. Your idea with plotting position right before the jump: get_safe_pos, then fake the jump with an instantaneous warp? That would be extremely effective, but think it might be too effective. Absolutely no chance for error then. Might get boring.
i personally use and prefer a longer off-time, actually 4min between jumps, but no fuel and imediate jump (like light pre-charging), so the ship needs to boost also, if fuel is available or not
my intention for the hint about the delay was because of boosting - behavior especially on slow turning LR-Ships where the position is outdatet at arrival

but you could here do it skill dependent how good the positioning will work, maybe with some possible failures (like change of distance higher then weaponrange)

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Post by UniTrader » Thu, 2. Jun 16, 11:15

pref wrote:If you figure a way to have a capship move in a controlled way please tell me how (i mean reduce the delay until they align and start to move towards the target from 20-30sec to below 10 or so)..
If this is meant by using the spline FCM thats not caused by alignment but by path calculation - so reducing overall load might be a good start. Also if the moveto command is given simultaneous all ships should start at nearly the same time (didnt test this yet, but i am pretty confident it would work)
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Post by Ezarkal » Thu, 2. Jun 16, 17:02

w.evans wrote:
Ezarkal wrote:Does your mod affect the behavior of the CWIR Sucellus Vanguard Destroyer the same way it affect the behaviour of the vanilla Sucellus?
Haven't kept up with latest CWIR, unfortunately, but we cooked up a way to communicate between mods and at one point, the Sucellus Vanguard Destroyer was registered with MICT, so it should use appropriate movement. That is, it should go to extreme big gun range, whatever extreme range is on that ship's gun, and keep front oriented to the target. As long as the gun is oriented on the target (low tolerance, only 10 degrees) it should fire. But if it's off by even a little bit past tolerance, the gun won't fire.
Thanks for the info. I'll make some tests on some stations.
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Post by w.evans » Sun, 5. Jun 16, 10:21

5.June 2016 - Miscellaneous IZ Combat Tweaks updated to v0.67

- Fixed MICT long-ranged ships using up jump fuel past the fuel reserve for the correction jump.
- The correction jump should charge up much faster.

Please note that the correction jump will probably still take a very long time if the ship does not have enough jump fuel for even one jump. To avoid this situation, MICT ships should always have at least 100 fuel cells when going into combat.

Many thanks to The Puppeteer and Eightball for reporting and confirming the issue.
Thanks to Marvin Martian, pref, Ezarkal, and Lorc Crc for contributing their opinions on the matter.

note: I entered the date wrong in content.xml. Will correct in the next update. Only thing it'll affect is the date will appear wrong in the in-game extensions menu.

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Post by w.evans » Sun, 5. Jun 16, 10:56

Cleaned up the OP a bit. Information there should be more correct than not now. Also remembered that I forgot to add documentation on supp9 that was initially uploaded on the 22nd of November:

supplement 9:

The Stromvok is treated by all AI ships as a freighter. It will probably still be ignored by plundering ships unless provoked since it still doesn't have cargo capacity, but it should be able to slip past patrols of factions that are hostile enough to target military vessels but not civilian vessels.

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