X4 done right EGOSOFT PLEASE READ

[Sandalpocalypse]

you know i've seen egosoft hint at this but probably one of the #1 unfixable problems with X:Rebirth is the economy design

it requires every resource to do basically anything with a station or build anything really. without access to every resource the economy stops ticking over.

1.) if there's a chokepoint anywhere in the supply chain it will halt the whole economy, causing huge problems.

2.) there's few handy holes in the economy for the player to exploit with their own stations. in x3 for example there were numerous easily identified areas suffering either shortages or surpluses that a player could use for their own advantage.

3.) even highly developed sectors are highly dependent on other sectors to function at even a basic level

4.) empire building players can't establish even a basically functional local economy without dozens of stations.

5.) Cantera is weird and sad because there are few possible interactions with the NPC stations for earning credits.



i actually made a mod to redo the economy from the ground up but i ran into problems with secondary resources not working the way i wanted to.

[BigBANGtheory]

Oh the glory days , don't be EGOtistic thinking all about yourself and how the game should be , because it was a game that you could play in many ways , you could be a trader you could be a capital ship captain you could be a fighter pilot with Split temperament like me , you could be anything you ever wanted.

That's all well and good IF the game actually supports the "many ways" the simple truth is you could not be anything you wanted because the tools and UI presented to the player prevents them from doing stuff beyond a certain point.

To put it another way the "many ways" needs to be expanded to include more ways, ways that make sense in the context of the environment and gameplay that is present, ways that are a blatent gap in the gameplay but popular with the player base.

[Letzt]

I understand what you are telling me so let me entice them developers with sale numbers then.

The steam owners for X Rebirth are about 186,316.

The steam owners of X3 Reunion and X3 Terran Conflict are about 355,333 and 518,992 respectively given that Reunion wasn't a steam launched game I bought V2.0 goty edition and it didn't need steam so the number for Reunion is much bigger in reality and all.

So its clear what happened no need to take it further , what remains to be known is not what the fans want but if egosoft really wants to make a game like they used to make , if not its ok really , because you can't force inspiration or make a game when you don't want to make one because it will fail , only do what you like.
But don't tell me(Egosoft) that people wanted X Rebirth a game that did not inspire the script and modding support the previous 2 games(3 with ap) had.

So its all up to Egosoft and if they want they can , Best of luck to them , I want to be suprised.

[DorianEU]

Reference game:
Elite Dangerous (Physx, more flyable ships, equipment)

[Miniding]

As usual, I totally agree with Nanook!

What was very interesting in X trilogy was that when you lunch the game, and you're in a fighting mood, then you get your fighter and go after some pirates or military missions and when you were more building empire mood, then you lunched your X too!! That is what was making The X trilogy a hundred's hour game!!!

All the TRADE BUILD FIGHT THINK areas should be in it.

I spent 436h steam (but really 6x more offline) on X3 AP
I already spent 1 141 h on X rebirth... but stoped playing it for now...

I'm still ready to pay for a new X game as I trust in Ego to build something great... but sorry for you EGO, if it's without listenning to your player community, I won't buy anything. It seems to be the only way to make things right!

Still hoping

[Aven Valkyr]

I'm glad to see this thread is still kicking. I'm an avid EVE player and every now and then I get so tired of the BS in that game that I come back to these forums to see if anything is new.

Well word on the street is Egosoft has officially said they are in production of a new X title.

I hope they have taken this post to heart, and looked at everything within it. There are a few other threads I have made concerning content within X. One of the foremost being some sort of endgame content, or dynamic sandboxing. The things we do should change more than just our wallet. There could be shifts in region control, varying strengths of the given navy fleets of the different factions, the sudden need for certain resources, even the ability to permenantly knock out gates or stations. The game world should change due to our actions. Not be a static template for endless NPC respawns.

There could be missions granted by navy forces you have good standings with. These missions should be endgame-esque and really reinforce who rules the sector, or even the galaxy.

The changes I mentioned should be coupled with a few improvements to industry. A person could be very creative in this department. The player could be able to build their own ships, granted their standings are high enough with the locals to deploy that type of station. And even if it is, your production could be limited to very small ships or fighters, until your standings are high enough to build a better station, one that can build bigger ships.

The player should have a better reason to set up a massive trade network. It should be there to fund his own armada. Many players go this route and start popping out fittings meant for capital ships. However in previous X titles the industrial game kindof ends there. You can only deploy so many stations and make so much money before the sandbox becomes stale. If you take what we have been given up to this point and then add on to that, using new end game style of content, then being an empire tycoon would have much more gravity than it does now.

If the concept of dynamic sandboxing actually makes it into reality, then even the empire tycoon would have to build many support fleets and even occasionally manually engage an invading force. As your empire grows, so does the threat of an incursion spawned by the NPC's. Enemy factions could just so happen to try and invade (and take over) a system which your station just happens to be in. So you send in your own forces, along with the navy fleets of your friendly factions. This would make running an empire much more dangerous. Especially in the fringe systems of heavily policed zones.

And one more big point with the dynamic sandbox experience I'm trying to relay here. It would scale with player progression. Sure, at the start there is not much happening. Then you start to build a couple of stations, and a while later you are flying through a system that's been flagged as a system under incursion. Or you run a few dozen random missions, and suddenly you happen to pull one where they want you to help repel an incursion. Add to that getting into a bigger ship, and the frequency of repelling an incursion increases. What I'm saying here, is there would be a global threat to the player. A growing one. And it's not just the random xenon/khaak attacks. It's actual factions, using their navy to crush and overtake a system. A system which would then permenantly become their own. In this sense, the player could potentially "loose" the game if enough time goes by (and we are talking about a LONG time here) without doing anything to intervene. Or, the player could ally themselves with that faction and reap the rewards.

What I'm getting at here is, it's not just the mechanics of the game that needs changing. Sure there could be better UI's and smarter trade vessels, or the ability to produce this or that. But overall, there needs to be something to *do* in the end, when all that fortune/power has been amassed. There needs to be a very solid reason for the player choosing to continue on. And that reason should be engaging, dangerous, profitable, and most of all, FUN.

So to re-iterate this one more time. Dynamic Sandboxing. Make the world alive. Living, moving, changing, reacting to the players decisions. Make sovereignties change hands. Make the NPC a lot more oppressive. Give the player missions fit for the end game content. And I don't mean storyline missions like the Hub. I mean missions that are reactive to what the world is doing. For exmpale you could be pinged with an incoming message from an admiral, offering a mission to defend a sector that's under incursion threat. Or a message from the same admiral saying they are in dire need of resources to their efforts. Building X Y Z stations in A B C sector would improve their production rates. Of course, turning down the missions could have dire consequences later on to the player. Alternatively, accepting and completing the mission could come with a massive reward.

Whether it's trading or combat. make all player actions have a marked influence on the world around them. Kill a handful of fighters via regular missions? Now that frigate that's supporting the capital ship is undefended and the faction navy can go there and take out that frig, aiding in their efforts, or even give you a special mission to do the same. Got a handful of factories in a certain sector? now your influence is high enough to start building more complicated items, such as ships or weapons as a part of funding a naval effort to defend a zone.

Sorry if this got a little carried away. I literally just read that the new X title is under development. I'm just trying to give you more ideas to work on. This isn't just a hope for a thing either. This lack of a dynamic environment is literally what killed the X titles for me. LitCube made an amazing mod, and is very difficult, and is very close to what I'm getting at here, but it's still not really what I'm talking about here.

So thank you Egosoft. Many have turned their backs on you. I haven't. I believe that you can do this, and break new ground in the space simulator genre. I would be willing to pay over $100 for "X Done Right". Hands down, no questions asked. You would be lord of the land. All the other studio's would be holding the new X title as an idol of perfection. You guys are so close to it, I can feel it coming on. Continue doing what you are doing, and make this next title AMAZING.

[spankahontis]

...
As for the rest, I think I know why X3 was so popular - think less of it as a piloting sim, and more of a sim city type game with piloting on the side to give you something else to do while your empire is grinding along. When you look at X as a complex resource management game it makes a lot more sense....

Actually, X3, and previous games, were so popular because of all of the above. X games give the player their choice on how to play and what to concentrate on doing. It's not mostly about resource management or piloting. Some players build an empire to support their combat game. Some players build fleets just to protect their empire building game.

I've played many a game where my emphasis was on flying and fighting. I've also played games where I built huge complexes and fleets to protect them. I've played games where I was a pirate and my primary income was from stealing things. I've even played games as a scavenger, picking up loot, buying, repairing and then selling used ships, capturing ships just for reselling, etc.

What makes these games so great is the breadth of things you can do, and the ability to concentrate on just one area for a whole game, if you wish.

True, but I was trying to emphasise the aspect that makes X games different to the others, its USP if you will. If you just like shooting things you'll be playing Elite or similar, but if you want the more rounded experience then X3 was the only game in town. That XR isn't the successor we hoped says how much ES dropped the ball in this aspect, and forgot that a FPS shooter isn't a replacement, even if it still had a little bit of resource management stuff.

I don't know, I just checked the Elite: Dangerous website, these new Expansions they're adding 'Power Play' in particular sounds really interesting.
The ability to help powerful figures in politics in the Empire, Federation, Independent, Alliance sectors etc. to expand their territory with 20 People something like 50 to be added sounds really interesting.

If it had X:Rebirths Empire Building ability then it would be game over for Egosoft as you could challenge other factions for supremacy of Space.

[BigBANGtheory]

What I'm getting at here is, it's not just the mechanics of the game that needs changing. Sure there could be better UI's and smarter trade vessels, or the ability to produce this or that. But overall, there needs to be something to *do* in the end, when all that fortune/power has been amassed. There needs to be a very solid reason for the player choosing to continue on. And that reason should be engaging, dangerous, profitable, and most of all, FUN.

Yes that's right, I'm glad the message is finally getting through and or recognised by others.

You can't have a sandbox that promotes growth and progression only to abandon you at the point of your evolution, the sandbox has to evolve to keep pace with the player and reward them for earlier efforts and sucess. What's funny is that now Egosoft has poured considerable effort into polishing the base XR game the gaps and design flaws become more apparent.

It's fixable though maybe not for XR but as an evolution into the next product.

[Aven Valkyr]

I don't know, I just checked the Elite: Dangerous website, these new Expansions they're adding 'Power Play' in particular sounds really interesting.
The ability to help powerful figures in politics in the Empire, Federation, Independent, Alliance sectors etc. to expand their territory with 20 People something like 50 to be added sounds really interesting.

If it had X:Rebirths Empire Building ability then it would be game over for Egosoft as you could challenge other factions for supremacy of Space.

I'm not so sure about this. The X3 series had a few majour things going for them that elite dangerous will never top:

1) no monthly subscriptions
2) the ability to own and manage several fleets
3) the ability to fly *ANY* ship, including capitals
4) A rich universe full of life, however X3's "life" was very static and doesn't really mean a whole lot to the player
5) it's more than just trading. X3 was an empire management game with the ability to build stations and automated merchant ships. It would be pretty hard to top this. Egosoft NAILED the empire management in their games
6) This isn't WoW vs every-other-mmo. X3 is a single player game with no risk of being ganked by a complete douchebag looking to ruin your experience. X3 is a very complex title with a lot to do and see and there's something to be said about being able to fire it up and just relax with your own methods. You are comparing an MMO to a single player experience. There's no comparison. There's no "X3 Killer". X3 isn't an MMO. It's a title you buy ONCE and then you have it. Unlike Elite: Dangerous where you spend $120 on the game and then pay monthly to play.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

The X3 series had a few majour things going for them that elite dangerous will never top:
1) no monthly subscriptions
...
Unlike Elite: Dangerous where you spend $120 on the game and then pay monthly to play.

Aven, the E:D that was sold last year doesn't cost $120, and it doesn't have monthly subscriptions either.

It might cost $120 if you buy a couple of the season passes (which look over-priced to me) but they are optional so far, like Rebirth's TO expansion.

Obviously I don't know what could happen in the future but a monthly subscription is quite speculative to be presented as a distinction today.

[Miniding]

Anyway, this thread was neither to talk about what is or is not in Elite Dangerous nor if it would become a monthly billing game....

The thread was to tell what should be in next opus Ego evoqued lately...

[Alan Phipps]

My sandbox number one must-have is a sense of wonder when exploring. The 'Wow!' factor if you will. You must come across the unexpected when you wander and not just more and more of the same with cosmetic differences and a little RNG factor thrown in.

There are some really nice 'special' station models in X-R but at the end of the day they just act like all other run-of-the-mill production stations and you soon barely glance at them in passing. Where are the special stories, the special ships/stations/colonies, the mysterious encounters and the special objects that actually lead the player to go off and do something entirely different for a while? (Example - why can't we get the DeVries broken habitats repaired if we want? Or even the Reiver Way Stations should we desire to?)

Turning to player 'gameplay style and choice':

On the constructions side, where are the modular ships we can design and build using basic elements to meet our own specifications? There are already so-called BTO shipyards after all. (Enveloping design limitations apply obviously.)

Similarly why can't we mix and match a wide choice of different production, defence and efficiency modules into our player stations to meet a local demand or circumstance rather than have to choose from fixed subsets of rigid template stations that nearly always create more local trade and economy problems than they resolve?

I think such an approach with more freedom and less leading by the nose could help with the middle and late game playability and even the more general replayability of this type of game.

[ezra-r]

I'm glad to see this thread is still kicking. I'm an avid EVE player and every now and then I get so tired of the BS in that game that I come back to these forums to see if anything is new.

Well word on the street is Egosoft has officially said they are in production of a new X title.

I hope they have taken this post to heart, and looked at everything within it. There are a few other threads I have made concerning content within X. One of the foremost being some sort of endgame content, or dynamic sandboxing. The things we do should change more than just our wallet. There could be shifts in region control, varying strengths of the given navy fleets of the different factions, the sudden need for certain resources, even the ability to permenantly knock out gates or stations. The game world should change due to our actions. Not be a static template for endless NPC respawns.

There could be missions granted by navy forces you have good standings with. These missions should be endgame-esque and really reinforce who rules the sector, or even the galaxy.

The changes I mentioned should be coupled with a few improvements to industry. A person could be very creative in this department. The player could be able to build their own ships, granted their standings are high enough with the locals to deploy that type of station. And even if it is, your production could be limited to very small ships or fighters, until your standings are high enough to build a better station, one that can build bigger ships.

The player should have a better reason to set up a massive trade network. It should be there to fund his own armada. Many players go this route and start popping out fittings meant for capital ships. However in previous X titles the industrial game kindof ends there. You can only deploy so many stations and make so much money before the sandbox becomes stale. If you take what we have been given up to this point and then add on to that, using new end game style of content, then being an empire tycoon would have much more gravity than it does now.

If the concept of dynamic sandboxing actually makes it into reality, then even the empire tycoon would have to build many support fleets and even occasionally manually engage an invading force. As your empire grows, so does the threat of an incursion spawned by the NPC's. Enemy factions could just so happen to try and invade (and take over) a system which your station just happens to be in. So you send in your own forces, along with the navy fleets of your friendly factions. This would make running an empire much more dangerous. Especially in the fringe systems of heavily policed zones.

And one more big point with the dynamic sandbox experience I'm trying to relay here. It would scale with player progression. Sure, at the start there is not much happening. Then you start to build a couple of stations, and a while later you are flying through a system that's been flagged as a system under incursion. Or you run a few dozen random missions, and suddenly you happen to pull one where they want you to help repel an incursion. Add to that getting into a bigger ship, and the frequency of repelling an incursion increases. What I'm saying here, is there would be a global threat to the player. A growing one. And it's not just the random xenon/khaak attacks. It's actual factions, using their navy to crush and overtake a system. A system which would then permenantly become their own. In this sense, the player could potentially "loose" the game if enough time goes by (and we are talking about a LONG time here) without doing anything to intervene. Or, the player could ally themselves with that faction and reap the rewards.

What I'm getting at here is, it's not just the mechanics of the game that needs changing. Sure there could be better UI's and smarter trade vessels, or the ability to produce this or that. But overall, there needs to be something to *do* in the end, when all that fortune/power has been amassed. There needs to be a very solid reason for the player choosing to continue on. And that reason should be engaging, dangerous, profitable, and most of all, FUN.

So to re-iterate this one more time. Dynamic Sandboxing. Make the world alive. Living, moving, changing, reacting to the players decisions. Make sovereignties change hands. Make the NPC a lot more oppressive. Give the player missions fit for the end game content. And I don't mean storyline missions like the Hub. I mean missions that are reactive to what the world is doing. For exmpale you could be pinged with an incoming message from an admiral, offering a mission to defend a sector that's under incursion threat. Or a message from the same admiral saying they are in dire need of resources to their efforts. Building X Y Z stations in A B C sector would improve their production rates. Of course, turning down the missions could have dire consequences later on to the player. Alternatively, accepting and completing the mission could come with a massive reward.

Whether it's trading or combat. make all player actions have a marked influence on the world around them. Kill a handful of fighters via regular missions? Now that frigate that's supporting the capital ship is undefended and the faction navy can go there and take out that frig, aiding in their efforts, or even give you a special mission to do the same. Got a handful of factories in a certain sector? now your influence is high enough to start building more complicated items, such as ships or weapons as a part of funding a naval effort to defend a zone.

Sorry if this got a little carried away. I literally just read that the new X title is under development. I'm just trying to give you more ideas to work on. This isn't just a hope for a thing either. This lack of a dynamic environment is literally what killed the X titles for me. LitCube made an amazing mod, and is very difficult, and is very close to what I'm getting at here, but it's still not really what I'm talking about here.

So thank you Egosoft. Many have turned their backs on you. I haven't. I believe that you can do this, and break new ground in the space simulator genre. I would be willing to pay over $100 for "X Done Right". Hands down, no questions asked. You would be lord of the land. All the other studio's would be holding the new X title as an idol of perfection. You guys are so close to it, I can feel it coming on. Continue doing what you are doing, and make this next title AMAZING.

I have read your post with much attention, I like your ideas.

The one about navy forces giving you special end game missions made me wonder. Why on Earth PMC does not have a special super secret sector/zone somewhere far away with secret facilities and lots of experimental goodies for us to find, pry, get access to, and so on and on

Same could be said about the Argon government to finish with the Xenon threat and so on..

I certainly hope as you say, Egosoft can take an implement some of these ideas.

[BattleXer]

What I'm getting at here is, it's not just the mechanics of the game that needs changing. Sure there could be better UI's and smarter trade vessels, or the ability to produce this or that. But overall, there needs to be something to *do* in the end, when all that fortune/power has been amassed. There needs to be a very solid reason for the player choosing to continue on. And that reason should be engaging, dangerous, profitable, and most of all, FUN.

I couldn't agree more with this. I found it very sobering that after spending hundreds of hours of building an empire in X3/AP, gathering a powerful fleet and building factories to supply this fleet, there was nowhere for it to go. There was no point in invading and taking over whole sectors, because GOD would always replace any destroyed infrastructure.

If it was possible to declare war on any/all of the factions in the universe, destroy them, and replace/capture their infrastructure and use it to trade with the rest of the universe, that would provide an immense incentive to keep on playing long after the thrill of building your first station has worn off.

Obviously, as previously mentioned in this thread, this would require robust systems within the game to make empire management possible and enjoyable.

But one can only hope, I suppose...

[Bandus]

Well word on the street is Egosoft has officially said they are in production of a new X title.

Is this officially official somewhere or just speculation still? Definitely eager to move past the XR stuff and see how that goes...

[BigBANGtheory]

I couldn't agree more with this. I found it very sobering that after spending hundreds of hours of building an empire in X3/AP, gathering a powerful fleet and building factories to supply this fleet, there was nowhere for it to go. There was no point in invading and taking over whole sectors, because GOD would always replace any destroyed infrastructure.

If it was possible to declare war on any/all of the factions in the universe, destroy them, and replace/capture their infrastructure and use it to trade with the rest of the universe, that would provide an immense incentive to keep on playing long after the thrill of building your first station has worn off.

Obviously, as previously mentioned in this thread, this would require robust systems within the game to make empire management possible and enjoyable.

But one can only hope, I suppose...

Bernd said on Reddit before XR was released that they would consider adding strategic gameplay into X Universe in the future i.e. if the player feedback was there.

So... feeback back ask for it if you want to see it.

Personally I think the game supporting M0 class dreadnought class (perhaps even planet killers), is a good way to go about it becuase it introduces diplomacy for non-aggressives players/AI factions and fear/motivation for aggressive players.

[Spacefuelcomplex]

5 to 6 years before we get a glimpse of x4 or will it be sooner?

[Lord Dakier]

I'm currently heavily playing Metal Gear Solid The Phantom Pain. For those not in the new your base captures enemy combatants, mercs, scientists and employs them. There are many different departments for these people to work in and although tedious it can be micro-managed, but also auto-assigned for the more lazy folk like myself. All these staff members have stats and some have unique abilities.

My point being is that this is the system that should be incorporated in X4. I should be able to employ literally thousands of people to help my company whether it be military, economical or political. I would love to see my rookie pilot level up as he gains kills where he could one day become fleet commander. Similarly to Football Manager where every player has a current ability rating and a potential ability staff should be operated in such a way.

[BigBANGtheory]

I would love to see my rookie pilot level up as he gains kills where he could one day become fleet commander. Similarly to Football Manager where every player has a current ability rating and a potential ability staff should be operated in such a way.

I would just like to see evidence of fleet command, one which embraces the gameplay instead of trying to work around it like it was a problem to avoid.

[surferx]

I don't know, I just checked the Elite: Dangerous website, these new Expansions they're adding 'Power Play' in particular sounds really interesting.
The ability to help powerful figures in politics in the Empire, Federation, Independent, Alliance sectors etc. to expand their territory with 20 People something like 50 to be added sounds really interesting.

If it had X:Rebirths Empire Building ability then it would be game over for Egosoft as you could challenge other factions for supremacy of Space.

I'm not so sure about this. The X3 series had a few majour things going for them that elite dangerous will never top:

1) no monthly subscriptions
2) the ability to own and manage several fleets
3) the ability to fly *ANY* ship, including capitals
4) A rich universe full of life, however X3's "life" was very static and doesn't really mean a whole lot to the player
5) it's more than just trading. X3 was an empire management game with the ability to build stations and automated merchant ships. It would be pretty hard to top this. Egosoft NAILED the empire management in their games
6) This isn't WoW vs every-other-mmo. X3 is a single player game with no risk of being ganked by a complete douchebag looking to ruin your experience. X3 is a very complex title with a lot to do and see and there's something to be said about being able to fire it up and just relax with your own methods. You are comparing an MMO to a single player experience. There's no comparison. There's no "X3 Killer". X3 isn't an MMO. It's a title you buy ONCE and then you have it. Unlike Elite: Dangerous where you spend $120 on the game and then pay monthly to play.

#6) is the reason I have/will never play anything but single player. And I don't think Egosoft is going there. I don't see them branching out next time, but actually returning to more of the mainstream type of X game.
Yes it should be X4.
#2) & 3)