Egosoft did never create any mod.

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Gligli
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Egosoft did never create any mod.

Post by Gligli » Wed, 1. Jul 15, 11:27

AKA What makes Bernd a new step ahead... In my personal opinion :)

Did you, beloved community, never hear about "Farnham's Legend"? Because it's the only thing I see for him to create whatever pass in his mind :D
This means that this story inspire him. Every single release has been created to implement today's advancement of this story (merely or not I don't know); "Farnham's Legend".
BigBANGtheory wrote:(...) I'm not entirely sure why they believe its better to do it at arms length from their customers to me it would seem wise to seek compromise through dialog and co-operation in order to grow.
pref wrote:Not just that, AP is a (great) result of ES and the modding community working together.
This evolution was not done by ES only, but quite a few more people devoting their free time polishing and improving the series.
pref wrote: (...) And with XR Ego threw that all out of the window. It's not just about distance and lack of communication, ES has a different vision. (...)
With the release of X3, the community was more able to tune the result due to moding capabilities... From there huge works have been made by third parties, and not especially in regard of the "Farnham's Legend". Sometimes, work made was bigger than what ES was able to produce itself...

Anyway, those 3party mods were good enough to be official in the eyes of Egosoft...
The sum of everything of that belong to AP, as it runs on the same engine as X3.
But no mods are created by Egosoft, as their products are the group of tools needed to tell the story (plot) of Bernd.
And once that exists, the objectives are to debug this new pile of tools.
To finally brings hi-end dlc in regard of the new engine (new bernd's plots). At that moment, the amount of official mods will be proportional of the cooperation made by ES on 3rd party mods... If they don't or if ther's no modder, for example, there will be no official mod.
On se rend vers la connaissance avec circonspection.
c.a.d, avec un immense respect et la peur au ventre.

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Post by pref » Thu, 2. Jul 15, 18:08

Not sure i get your point, but lets try.
My point was that the mods and community effort set a path or direction to where the series can/should evolve.
XR just went in an opposite way in many aspects.

Furhtermore i fail to see the creativity in XR - the sounds, visuals and atmosphere is nice of course, but the game world is just boring.
X3 could have been the same, but the sandbox aspect was so detailed that it was easy to accept the less involving plots, or the lacking opponents/late game challenges. Basically it had a background setting for a very nice game, but the game itself was only supported by mods (sector takeover, improved race responses, Phanon corp, Xenon invasion etc). And the background was detailed enough to play for 100s of hours in itself anyway.

An then XR comes, and instead of improving on these aspects, it just leaves out half the mechanics that you would need for that great game that was almost there with X3 & its mods.
And has no nice new ideas that make up for this loss at all imo.
I cant even define the vision behind XR, surely it wasn't babysitting rogue employees of your company, but there is not much else in concept that was not present in X3. If it was a company simulator i would get it, but it is supposed to be a space simulation/empire building game with an entirely different ethos.

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Post by Gligli » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 10:38

pref wrote:Not sure i get your point, but lets try.
Maybe that's why you're the only answer. :)
I expected more reply, I saw that none could think like me :D Come on Guys, you don't agree with me! :D
pref wrote:My point was that the mods and community effort set a path or direction to where the series can/should evolve.
It did for sure. But its true for a single game engine at once... when it's ready.
pref wrote:XR just went in an opposite way in many aspects.
The idea of this side project was to start new.
They wouldn't remake X3 aka pass next 10 year to make the same as they did to "officialise" the trilogy on XR.
pref wrote:(...) but the game world is just boring.(...), less involving plots, or the lacking opponents/late game challenges...
That's content. I think that they prefer pass the next 10 years to add such new contents. Such things will come little by little, every ones of them (if agreed)
pref wrote:Basically it had a background setting for a very nice game, but the game itself was only supported by mods (sector takeover, improved race responses, Phanon corp, Xenon invasion etc).

And that won't change, I think.
The trilogy is unique... Why try to remake it already? Its very very too early. Let's say in 30years by someone else :mrgreen:
Joke apart, it represent a titan job if not Herculean... Probably out of range for our beloved little studio.
pref wrote:And the background was detailed enough to play for 100s of hours in itself anyway.
I pass it for a long time... on both :D
pref wrote:An then XR comes, and instead of improving on these aspects, it just leaves out half the mechanics that you would need for that great game that was almost there with X3 & its mods.
Yup, "empty" engine
pref wrote:And has no nice new ideas that make up for this loss at all imo.
There's a loss only if you still don't understand this point/topic... as many, as player who want every skill of his exported character becomes recover on the next title of "the journey".
That very very rarely happen... even with AAA opuses.
pref wrote:I cant even define the vision behind XR,

As said: A plot for "Farnham's Legend" for best, in ES side, if we put technical environment things, like portals, apart.
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Post by pref » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 16:55

It's not about more content, more time (its near 10 years dev time for XR anyway).
It's about how you can interface with the economy, or the player assets.
How they are meant to be used.
What aims you can have in the game, the challenges it presents.

Not necessarily more dev resource is needed, and especially less then implementing a flashy and involving FP plot. It's just a different concept from start.

To me it seems having a good sandbox with more capable AI (dynamic faction interactions, or real opponent(s) for the player) is much more within reach for a smaller studio, then all the things necessary for an AAA plot these days.

And the kind of world ES built until X3 has a place on the market, as it's unique.
But unlike you, i see that as a reason to go on with it. If you have a good idea why dump it, and try to do something that has already been done a couple 100 times, with budgets ES cannot even dream of.

I agree that it's good to make it play fluent, and easier to understand from start - but that rather needs UI and AI improvements, not leaving out important features, while adding minigames and an FP aspect that has no relevance to the rest of the game.
Just a matter of focus, definitely not a herculean job.

Or scrap the X3 evolution, but for a good reason - XR hasn't any great ideas that would make it excel in comparison with X3. Its the same stuff just a light edition, and an attempt to cath up with todays mainstream game components like minigames, FP, facial animations with voicover, fully controller compatible (focused) UI design etc.
I'm happy if they succeed in all this, but i still have to see a game in there somewhere. And if time is short, the game itself is more important then flashy details.
In other words, i'd rather play a game with less complex 3d models, without seeing the drones doing the freight transfer - but with an AI that can navigate the environment, and close a trade trip in human time.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 17:08

X-Rebirth scrapped the X3 evolution because it had to... it would have been (possibly beyond) a Herculean task to achieve all the apparent technical goals and rewrite ALL the X3 features from scratch.

Too often I have seen professional organisations severely under estimate similar/comparable tasks, I am glad that Egosoft apparently have a better grasp on the magnitude of the job.

Some things in X-Rebirth have been done well, others not so well, but that is water under the bridge now and generally the would/could/should have debates are meaningless as this juncture. What matters is the changes we would like to see to make the game more like what we would like to play.

As for FP mode being meaningless, I totally disagree. In it's current vanilla utilisation, it has questionable merit but mods such as the Capital Ship Bridge mod have proven how it could be capitalised on.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by pref » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 17:20

You do not need all the details from X3 to still improve on it. You dont need all the ships, or an incredibly big map, or many other features from it for start.
You need a solid concept of what the game is about, and keep only the necessary parts in the beginning. Then you can just dlc the rest.

X3 with some mods had a solid concept, that does not need even 30% of the details/variation from X3. You need to have a game in a classical sense, not a tamagotchi that needs feeding 2x a day and then it grows.

I agree, the FP could be really nice if it was used - but i don't see the idea how it could be a real part of the game. You can even have just a bridge without station walking, or all the smalltalks and conversations and keep people satisfied.
And if you want to do FP well, then resources will definitely be a problem. And performance as well, as an average FP title does not have to keep the eco sim, pathing and whatnot going.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 17:50

We already have FP, the hard part is effectively done from a technical perspective as I see it. We do not need realistic faces, or other RPG/FPS class niceties for it to full-fill the purpose it seems to have been designed for... a supplemental feature to better support immersion. I am not a big fan of the Head Tracking (e.g. Occulus Rift) technology for games like this but some people are, but even without such technology immersion is still improved IMO (forget about the small talk stuff - I am not talking about that).

IMO X3 is/was a tired old dog - especially at X3:AP. It was straining at the seams and was far from perfect, even X3:TC was pushing the limits. The peak of X3 was with X3:R with the XTM mod and then it went down hill from there IMO (despite the apparent improvements). IMO in the context of the future of X-Rebirth, X3 should not be used as a general yard stick. There may be aspects of X3 that we would like to see addressed in a future X-Rebirth title but I think that we should not get caught up in how things were/are and look towards how things might be instead.

The core of X-Rebirth is still an X-Game - you can still build and own stations, own fleets of ships which you can order around, fly your own ship and engage in combat, execute missions for NPCs, and engage in economy trading. We are led to believe that multiple-player ships are going to be added for the next title, and it stands to reason that there will be more improvements than that though. However, we do not know at this time what improvements they might be, and I am certain Egosoft will say something more concrete when they are ready to (and not before).
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by pref » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 18:45

What made me tired in X3 was the lack of opponent(s) in late game, and the UI that failed at that phase.
We had a great playground, but there was noone except ourselves to play with.
For me it would not seem tiresome at all if this phase was implemented, and so the game could be completed finally.
For me the peak in the X series would probably be LU in that sense - but it lacks plots or any personal involvement as it only concentrates on the sandbox.

I could clearly define X4 as a path from nothing to grand scale, with competing groups to play with /against in late game. Where you can take every role from fighter pilot/humble merchant to military commander and trade mogul. Great and unique idea imo that just needs to be completed (by adding the 'opponent' and the UI to handle it).

Here im in trouble with XR. In the 'path to riches' part it has some of X3, but is still just a light version. And it does not really have any fresh concepts or ideas that could be better or even comparable to what the X4 path can promise.

How could you define the game concept for XR in few sentences? What is the new direction that would lead to something better then X4?
I just see technical improvements, but what about the game itself?

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 19:07

There is no X4... :roll:
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by birdtable » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 20:21

You made me laugh Roger.... :)

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Post by pref » Fri, 3. Jul 15, 22:34

I thought you don't have an answer to that either :)
(and yes, there is no X4, we probably would not have this conversation if there was one..)

Seems to me there is no real concept about what to do with the new engine apart from the X4 one. Even ES defines it's plans for the future with X4 references exclusively (we won't do an X4, we work in the direction of X4).

If they could come up with something better that would be nice, but as long as that does not happen why not finish it finally instead of doing something that is just almost X4, but not really.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 02:33

There is no real accepted X4 concept, there is only the myriad of imaginary ones people have in their heads... That is part of the underlying problem IMO, it seems at least some are so fixated on their ideal vision of an X4 that they can not see (or seem to be able to talk about) anything else. To put things bluntly, X4 is irrelevant as a game title and as a general concept. What is not irrelevant are the individual features and aspects of gameplay we are individually looking for. More arguments have been caused by the over-use of the X4 moniker than any other in these forums.

X-Rebirth was as the name implies, a new start and a clean slate. With a new start and a clean slate you have to start small and build carefully from there otherwise there is a VERY strong risk of not too far down the road ending up repeating the same old problems.

The single biggest mistake made in a lot of development projects is to rush things and not consider all the angles. It would appear that Egosoft realise this and while slow progress may put some people's noses out of joint it would probably be worse in the long run if they tried to rush things.

The sole reason there is no single vision for future X-Rebirth titles is probably for similar reasons to why there is no single vision for X4. We all have different views on the way the series should develop. What we will probably end up with in the long run is probably something along the lines of a hybrid of all our views, but that is the long game and it makes no sense to pontificate about what a hypothetical XR3/XR4 might be when we have little idea about what XR2/??? (i.e. the X-Rebirth sequel) is going to be.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by Gligli » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 12:22

You both pleased me :)
We are much close to what seems: impossible for a little studio, perhaps re pick from oldies and injected to new engine... :)
pref wrote:It's not about more content, more time (its near 10 years dev time for XR anyway).


maybe 10y side project... that makes all the difference. And leaded to an engine not to a game
pref wrote:It's about how you can interface with the economy, or the player assets.
How they are meant to be used.
What aims you can have in the game, the challenges it presents.


except "economy" which is more related to internal mechanics, all other are 'objects', contents, though...
pref wrote:Not necessarily more dev resource is needed, and especially less then implementing a flashy and involving FP plot. It's just a different concept from start.


"different concept from start" is an endless topic.
Wrt dev resources, its a tiny bit discussable as we don't have hand on dis/agreeing any feature other way than modding(on its range).
pref wrote:To me it seems having a good sandbox with more capable AI (dynamic faction interactions, or real opponent(s) for the player) is much more within reach for a smaller studio, then all the things necessary for an AAA plot these days.
Maybe, maybe not... Ask yourself what are the mere differences between your examples and what it implies in matter of programming.
I'll add that once a side picked, the more you'll advance in it, the more you'll be tempted to add feature of the other camp in your own work... :)
pref wrote:And the kind of world ES built until X3 has a place on the market, as it's unique.
But unlike you, i see that as a reason to go on with it. If you have a good idea why dump it, and try to do something that has already been done a couple 100 times, with budgets ES cannot even dream of.
I see reasons too, and i was really surprised (i can't remember where) that Bernd think about it too...
But ES hasn't concurrency where they excel... They have only on budget, it seems to.
pref wrote:I agree that it's good to make it play fluent, and easier to understand from start - but that rather needs UI and AI improvements, not leaving out important features
Though, dev resources, and dev resources. To not say 'content' :)
pref wrote:, while adding minigames and an FP aspect that has no relevance to the rest of the game.
its new things... I see a lot of possibilities with both added to Xuniverse
pref wrote:Just a matter of focus, definitely not a herculean job.
ok, then this focus part is probably already at work on what filter from a huge mass.
The result still need to be re programmed inside the new engine...
pref wrote:Or scrap the X3 evolution, but for a good reason
I fear that the good reason is 'dev resources'
But I hope that only means that they abandon sequels. Not updates
pref wrote: - XR hasn't any great ideas that would make it excel in comparison with X3. Its the same stuff just a light edition, and an attempt to cath up with todays mainstream game components like minigames, FP, facial animations with voicover, fully controller compatible (focused) UI design etc.
For sure, its alpha against X3 which is close to omega :roll:
pref wrote: I'm happy if they succeed in all this, but i still have to see a game in there somewhere. And if time is short, the game itself is more important then flashy details.
In other words, i'd rather play a game with less complex 3d models, without seeing the drones doing the freight transfer - but with an AI that can navigate the environment, and close a trade trip in human time.
They don't bankrupt yet? So they succeed :lol:
But you get a point here :)
If we forget that ES is only making plot... In a Sandbox :D
On se rend vers la connaissance avec circonspection.
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Post by pref » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 14:03

I think the reason for the 'rush' or 'time is short' notion is partially related to the missing big picture (and it's been almost 10 years). It's hard to select the important features and skip the less important ones if the long term aim is not clear.

With the X3 mods i think its clear that they either fall in the category of balancing, content and ones that add late game play.
This third category follows a common path - more dynamic race politics or new groups that oppose the player via trade or war efforts. This gives a pretty obvious direction, and definitely not something that is just existing in one person's head out of the thousands playing the game.
And with this fresh start they could support such large scale behaviour from the beginning - and it would not have to be something that has to be forced on an engine that is not really capable to support it.

@Gigli: A fresh start or alpha state does not validate not having a long term aim with the game. Every alpha i played had a clear concept, it was obvious what one pays for - just some features were missing. Actually that concept is what sells the alpha games imo.
ES could not start an open alpha/kickstarter either with the info available about the next title. They would have to define a roadmap where you see the bigger blocks, and how these add up to create an interesting game.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 15:10

@pref: There is practically zero universal consensus on what an X4 might be thus any concept of X4 is just in our heads. The only aspects (wrt the improvement of there is a solid consensus on are the more core things (e.g. C&C requiring improvement) but even then there is division on the details. Where universe and NPC behaviour changes are concerned there is no solid universal consensus - some want more adversity others do not.

So I say again... There is no X4... :roll:

WRT the "big picture" and the future of the new series starting with X-Rebirth, I think we all have a rough idea about where we would each like to see it go but since it is not going to happen overnight and collective community opinion is likely to change over time it is ridiculous to even consider it IMO.

I would much rather see the game evolve naturally rather than to try and overly control it's evolution by imposing some kind of arbitrary big picture. I believe this was Egosoft's general idea from the start based on what they have said to date.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by pref » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 15:59

I think it's easy to see where the mods i referred to are headed. Not a detailed specs, but good for a general picture.

If you mean natural evolution by just adding features that seem nice at the moment, without any big picture where it could fit in (or not) - that is probably one of the worst things you can do in software development.
That method will always end up in an inconsistent mess imo (see XR).
Before you write a single line of code, you have to know what is the general purpose of the sw you are creating, and the main methods to reach that goal.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 17:59

X-Rebirth is not an inconsistent mess, X3:AP though is pretty much a total kludge IMO.

X-Rebirth is what I would call a clean baseline, it is missing many features that we would expect from an X game but I would expect many of those features to be addressed over at least the next couple of sequels based on what Egosoft have stated to date.

Natural evolution in a step by step manner is not always a bad thing if the software foundations are done the right way from the beginning. From the information Egosoft have given us, X-Rebirth is such a foundation.

If you are after a big picture we have the following factors that we can almost certainly expect from a future X-game:-
  1. Usage/Adherance to X lore as Egosoft specify it
  2. Compliance with the X mantra of Trade-Fight-Build-Think
That is essentially what makes an X game an X game IMO, everything else is negotiable. The form may have changed and evolved, but the essence is there even in X-Rebirth.

As for open conflict/war mods, they should stay as mods IMO... I believe a lot of us DON'T want an X-Rebirth version of ED's Power Play which it seems is what some seem to be pushing for in Vanilla.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by birdtable » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 18:58

I sure hope Ego do not follow the Elite route ... The audience they should be after is the dissatisfied Elite purchasers who found a false and shallow experience........
Elite may work on a superficial level with the easy so called AI of other online players but many that hoped for a solo experience were as disappointed as the purchasers of Rebirth.
I can understand the move towards Disabled Flight Assist with regard to inter Sector/System flight but at the present it is not required for fighter combat around stations.
I do believe the biggest danger to Egosoft supporters/fans is the the Steam Machine and the casual 60 min of button mashing.

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Post by pref » Sat, 4. Jul 15, 22:03

These points wont describe the game, just give a setting for it.

I never said anything about having war mods integrated into the game.
And not all such late game mods create an open conflict anyway.
I was talking about the direction they went (and which is the same for all): having an opponent AI that reacts to the player and can present challenge.
Which can potentially act in both the economic and fight aspect of the game.

Having a war, or peaceful coexistence (symbiosis even) should be up to the player, via plots or depending on player actions. Same with the nature of that war (eco vs military).
Point is that it can give reason for having that plex chain, the trade fleet and military assets. That there is something to play with.

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Post by spankahontis » Sun, 5. Jul 15, 03:03

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:There is no real accepted X4 concept, there is only the myriad of imaginary ones people have in their heads... That is part of the underlying problem IMO, it seems at least some are so fixated on their ideal vision of an X4 that they can not see (or seem to be able to talk about) anything else. To put things bluntly, X4 is irrelevant as a game title and as a general concept. What is not irrelevant are the individual features and aspects of gameplay we are individually looking for. More arguments have been caused by the over-use of the X4 moniker than any other in these forums.

X-Rebirth was as the name implies, a new start and a clean slate. With a new start and a clean slate you have to start small and build carefully from there otherwise there is a VERY strong risk of not too far down the road ending up repeating the same old problems.

The single biggest mistake made in a lot of development projects is to rush things and not consider all the angles. It would appear that Egosoft realise this and while slow progress may put some people's noses out of joint it would probably be worse in the long run if they tried to rush things.

The sole reason there is no single vision for future X-Rebirth titles is probably for similar reasons to why there is no single vision for X4. We all have different views on the way the series should develop. What we will probably end up with in the long run is probably something along the lines of a hybrid of all our views, but that is the long game and it makes no sense to pontificate about what a hypothetical XR3/XR4 might be when we have little idea about what XR2/??? (i.e. the X-Rebirth sequel) is going to be.


Maybe it needs it's own diagnosis?

Schroedinger's X4?
Phantom X4 Syndrome?
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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