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[AP] TS/TS+ Effectiveness
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Did you find this table useful?
Yes, it's great
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 23%  [ 3 ]
Yes, but it could be improved
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 46%  [ 6 ]
No, it's useless
30%
 30%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 13

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radster01



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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 00:45    Post subject: [AP] TS/TS+ Effectiveness Reply with quote Print

[size=large]Please note that the table listed here is version 1.0, and hence has several problems. Please see my table on page 3 for a more accurate representation of TS Effectiveness[/size]

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Hi everyone! I'm a long time lurker in these forums and i've finally taken the step up to create an account. I did a search for a AP trading ship efficiency table, but i couldn't find one Sad . So I decided to make my own one:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7-f9BRobD6Tc1hIVHpJbXY0WlE/view?usp=sharing

The first table is listed in order of efficiency, and the second table in cost efficiency.

What I found interesting:
-Springblossom's efficiency is only outclassed by SF XL's and TS+'s
-Mercury has the highest cost efficiency of any ship
-The Hayabusa has higher efficiency than any other ship. GO TERRANS!
-Tanker variations seem like a waste of money.

Just because the Hayabusa has the highest efficiency, I'm not saying that you should just buy them. Every ship has distinct advantages and disadvantages. The 'cost efficiency' is meant to show you how much outlay you paid to get that efficiency. Hence, it's cheaper to buy 5 Mercuries instead of 1 Mistral SF, and you move at a higher speed, but the Mistral SF only takes one docking space, whereas 5 Mercuries take up 5 docking spaces.

This table is meant for supplying your first few factories (i.e. a full load of silicon wafers). This list is hence useless for ST/UT because often they run pretty empty. For ST/UT I only use fast ships.

My personal preferences are Springblossoms and Hayabusa's for factories in Terran space, and Caiman Haulers/Drakes for the rest of the world. I play as Terran Commander, so all those fancy Mistral ships gonna be hard to get - I have to cap them.

I hope you found this guide useful!
Spoiler




Last edited by radster01 on Fri, 17. Apr 15, 02:41; edited 1 time in total
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Sparky Sparkycorp
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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 01:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Hello!

How has efficiency been calculated?

Thanks,
Sparks


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radster01



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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 03:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

(Cargo space*speed of a ship)/(cargo space*speed of Hayabusa)*100

i.e. the index of the cargo space times the speed

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Graaf



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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 07:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I noticed that you are using the maximum cargo storage possible. And that would require us to spend a lot of extra credits on a TS with IMO not much extra benefits. So does that table change dramatically when using the stock minimum cargo space?

Also, why are several ships listed multiple times?


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radster01



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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 08:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

As most TS's ship's cargo bay extensions are proportional to the amount of cargo they have currently, it wouldn't affect it much. I would put cost of Cargo Bay Extension/Engine Tuning in if I could but I couldn't find the cost of that.

Springblossom would drastically lose efficiency.


What ships?

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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 18:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Mercury, Mistral, Caiman, Vulture, Dolphin, Angel etc


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ballti



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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 19:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Good strat, make same eficience table for 1k,2k,3k4k.... cargohold. This will be perfect.


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ancienthighway





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PostPosted: Fri, 10. Apr 15, 20:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Efficiency or Effectiveness. They are different.

I disagree with the efficiency ratings not change much from no cargo extensions to max extensions. Looking at the Mistral SF it's efficiency jumps up to 149% using your way of calculating. This is because the Hayabusa comes with 6000 hold and must be upgraded to 14300. This will also greatly increase the cost of the ship from the 2.5 million for the base model. The Mercury jumps from 32% to 57%.

Using the Hayabusa as the standard, your calculations are heavy weighted towards the ships with the big cargo holds. Apples and oranges.

Another problem I have is with the complete absence of cost in determining your ratings. Buying a 2.5 million credit ship rather than five 200k ships giving the same hold capacity and much more flexibility in use seems to be less efficient and effective than buy more of the cheaper ships.

TL;DR
I think if you take a look at what you've done and use the outfitted cost* per 1 unit of cargo hold, your comparison will become much more meaningful.

* outfitted cost: cost of ship, speed and turning upgrades, max shields. Software is a wash assuming you equip all ships same, but if you want a basic package, Nav, Trading MkII, special command, triplex scanner. If you put lasers on transports, you'd have to include their cost and the fight command packages as well.

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radster01



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PostPosted: Sat, 11. Apr 15, 00:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@AncientHighway

I'll try that, but wouldn't that make speed redundant? i.e. it would make the Tern a really good ship, but it have terrible speed. What about overall cost divided by cargo all divided by speed (and then take the index)

Is there a formula for calculating the cost of engine tuning / cargo bay extension?

I don't put weapons or Fight Command Software on my TS's but sometimes i'll arm my UT Springblossoms with EEMPC's for when they fly through Asteroid Belt/Jupiter etc...

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ancienthighway





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PostPosted: Sat, 11. Apr 15, 02:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

This post, http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4036694, should get you started.

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radster01



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PostPosted: Sat, 11. Apr 15, 02:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Tried all the formulas there, but the only answers I got for the cost of fully upgrading a Mercury's cargo to be either -1000 or half a million Confused

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ancienthighway





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PostPosted: Sat, 11. Apr 15, 03:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Scroll down in the linked thread to Fluff's post. It appears to have the cost of cargo hold for TC.

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radster01



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PostPosted: Sat, 11. Apr 15, 04:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ancienthighway wrote:
Scroll down in the linked thread to Fluff's post. It appears to have the cost of cargo hold for TC.


Still doesn't have Engine Tuning or TS+ ships.

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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Apr 15, 01:10    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Using jlehtone's approximate formula for cargo, speed and steering costs in this post, I made two Haulage Efficiency (HE) lists that may help. Working assumptions are described at the end. The Excel 2013 spreadsheet containing workings and graphs for comment, use and error-reporting is here.


Key
HE: Haulage Efficiency: (k m3/M Cr) * (speed/100).
M Cr: Total cost of ship in millions (hull and equipment plus varied numbers of cargo expansions).
k m3: Size of empty cargobay at optimal haulage efficiency in thousands.
m/s: Maximum speed.
GJ: Maximum shield capacity.


Top 10 TS/TS+ for Universe Traders, based on haulage efficiency
1: Argon Mistral Super Freighter
2: Split Caiman Hauler
3: Paranid Demeter Hauler
4: Paranid Demeter Super Freighter XL
5: Argon Mercury Hauler
6: Split Caiman Super Freighter XL
7: Argon Mercury Super Freighter XL
8: Teladi Vulture Hauler
9: Boron Dolphin Hauler
10: Argon Mercury Prototype

_1: 3.53 HE_2.31 M Cr__78 m/s_150 GJ_10463 m3_Argon Mistral Super Freighter
_2: 3.45 HE_1.44 M Cr_100 m/s__75 GJ__5003 m3_Split Caiman Hauler
_3: 3.35 HE_1.45 M Cr__88 m/s_100 GJ__5533 m3_Paranid Demeter Hauler
_4: 3.29 HE_2.00 M Cr__79 m/s_125 GJ__8361 m3_Paranid Demeter Super Freighter XL
_5: 3.21 HE_1.47 M Cr__80 m/s_100 GJ__5913 m3_Argon Mercury Hauler
_6: 3.20 HE_2.13 M Cr__90 m/s_100 GJ__7604 m3_Split Caiman Super Freighter XL
_7: 3.10 HE_2.07 M Cr__72 m/s_125 GJ__8922 m3_Argon Mercury Super Freighter XL
_8: 3.07 HE_1.42 M Cr__64 m/s__75 GJ__6843 m3_Teladi Vulture Hauler
_9: 3.02 HE_1.54 M Cr__60 m/s_100 GJ__7813 m3_Boron Dolphin Hauler
10: 2.99 HE_1.53 M Cr_120 m/s_100 GJ__3823 m3_Argon Mercury Prototype


Top 10 TS/TS+ for Station Traders, based on haulage efficiency
1: Split Caiman Hauler
2: Paranid Demeter Hauler
3: Paranid Demeter Miner
4: Argon Mercury Hauler
5: Teladi Vulture Miner
6: Teladi Vulture Hauler
7: Split Caiman / Split Caiman Tanker (tied)
...
9: Argon Mistral Super Freighter
10: Boron Dolphin Hauler

_1: 5.22 HE_0.91 M Cr_100 m/s__75 GJ__4803 m3_Split Caiman Hauler
_2: 5.06 HE_0.92 M Cr__88 m/s_100 GJ__5353 m3_Paranid Demeter Hauler
_3: 4.82 HE_0.71 M Cr_117 m/s__75 GJ__2927 m3_Paranid Demeter Miner
_4: 4.80 HE_0.95 M Cr__80 m/s_100 GJ__5733 m3_Argon Mercury Hauler
_5: 4.77 HE_0.65 M Cr__86 m/s__50 GJ__3673 m3_Teladi Vulture Miner
_6: 4.66 HE_0.92 M Cr__64 m/s__75 GJ__6703 m3_Teladi Vulture Hauler
_7: 4.60 HE_0.60 M Cr_124 m/s__50 GJ__2213 m3_Split Caiman / Split Caiman Tanker (identical stats)
...
_9: 4.47 HE_1.78 M Cr__78 m/s_150 GJ_10213 m3_Argon Mistral Super Freighter
10: 4.41 HE_1.04 M Cr__60 m/s_100 GJ__7673 m3_Boron Dolphin Hauler


Top 10 TS/TS+ for Local Traders, based on haulage efficiency
1: Split Caiman Hauler
2: Argon Mistral Super Freighter
3: Paranid Demeter Hauler
4: Paranid Demeter Super Freighter XL
5: Argon Mercury Hauler
6: Split Caiman Super Freighter XL
7: Argon Mercury Prototype
8: Paranid Demeter Miner
9: Teladi Vulture Hauler
10: Argon Mercury Super Freighter XL

_1: 3.74 HE_1.43 M Cr_100 m/s__75 GJ__5363 m3_Split Caiman Hauler
_2: 3.67 HE_2.29 M Cr__78 m/s_150 GJ_10813 m3_Argon Mistral Super Freighter
_3: 3.61 HE_1.43 M Cr__88 m/s_100 GJ__5893 m3_Paranid Demeter Hauler
_4: 3.46 HE_1.99 M Cr__79 m/s_125 GJ__8732 m3_Paranid Demeter Super Freighter XL
_5: 3.44 HE_1.45 M Cr__80 m/s_100 GJ__6273 m3_Argon Mercury Hauler
_6: 3.38 HE_2.11 M Cr__90 m/s_100 GJ__7975 m3_Split Caiman Super Freighter XL
_7: 3.32 HE_1.51 M Cr_120 m/s_100 GJ__4183 m3_Argon Mercury Prototype
_8: 3.31 HE_1.23 M Cr_117 m/s__75 GJ__3465 m3_Paranid Demeter Miner
_9: 3.26 HE_1.41 M Cr__64 m/s__75 GJ__7223 m3_Teladi Vulture Hauler
10: 3.25 HE_2.05 M Cr__72 m/s_125 GJ__9292 m3_Argon Mercury Super Freighter XL


Known issues
Some of displayed stats above have a slight rounding issue with their last numbers. They are accurate in the spreadsheet so it makes no difference to the order. I just can't be bothered to manually edit the pasted numbers Smile


Working assumptions
1. Since estimated max speed and steering costs on a TS are relatively trivial (<14k and <10k, respectively) and aid survival, they are assumed to be purchased in full. Full shielding also applied. 12 drones were also added to each ship since, IIRC, that is the number UTs aim to buy.

2. 50 jumps of fuel (500 m3) and a jumpdrive picked for each ship. Jump fuel volume is relatively less important for larger ships so maybe a player would rather adjust that number per ship type but I didn't want to go into that level of ship-specific, subjective detail.

3. Volume of equipment and fuel was subtracted from cargo space after expansion prior to estimating Haulage Efficiency (EF). For that I used the following equation:

(spare cargo space/total cost of ship)*(max speed/100)

Haulage Efficiency was calculated for each percentage point of max hull upgrades (e.g. 100 times per ship) and the most efficient percentage for each ship was picked. Since in the end that meant usage of only 18-58% (UTs) or 13-40% (station traders) of the available cargo expansions, depending on ship, comments relating to whether the game or a players interaction with the economy would work better with fewer, larger ships can apply.

4. No weapons were added. Personally, I have used missile-only, cheap guns in the past for IZ but apparently weapons can lead to bad results OOZ so I left them off. If using multiple weapons of significant value is preferred, a player would need to fine-tune costs more than I was willing to.

5. I appreciate that 'haulage efficiency' as described above is not the be-all and end-all of things. I've prefixed cost, speed, shield capacity and empty cargo space after haulage efficiency to ship names to provide further info.

6. Equipment for Universe Traders (~533 m3 and ~750k Cr):
Best Buys Locator
Best Selling Price Locator
Boost Extension
Fighter Drone x12 (Commonwealth hulls only)
Jumpdrive
Keris x12 (Terran hulls only)
Navigation Command Software MK1
Singularity Engine Time Accelerator
Special Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK2
Trade Command Software MK3
Triplex Scanner
Jump fuel (500 ECs)
No weapons

7. Equipment for Station Traders (~533 m3 and ~270k Cr):
Best Buys Locator
Best Selling Price Locator
Boost Extension
Fighter Drone x12 (Commonwealth hulls only)
Jumpdrive
Keris x12 (Terran hulls only)
Navigation Command Software MK1
Singularity Engine Time Accelerator
Special Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK2
CLS Mk1
CLS Mk2
Triplex Scanner
Jump fuel (500 ECs)
No weapons

8. Equipment for Local Traders (~133 m3 and ~745k Cr):
Best Buys Locator
Best Selling Price Locator
Boost Extension
Fighter Drone x12 (Commonwealth hulls only)
Jumpdrive
Keris x12 (Terran hulls only)
Navigation Command Software MK1
Singularity Engine Time Accelerator
Special Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK1
Trade Command Software MK2
Trade Command Software MK3
Triplex Scanner
Jump fuel (100 ECs)
No weapons


Change log
v1.0 - 13.04.2015 - Initial release (Universe Traders and Station Traders).
v1.1 - 14.04.2015 - Listed cargo values now 'spare cargo'; Remove redundant equipment.
v1.2 - 14.04.2015 - Added Local Traders.
v1.3 - 15.04.2015 - Fixed Drake shields, counted free shield (egosoftuserdude); used accurate hull costs; merged tabs; minor streamlining.
v1.4 - 21.04.2015 - Fixed missing accounting for shield volume; simplified some cell code.


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Last edited by Sparky Sparkycorp on Tue, 21. Apr 15, 14:01; edited 24 times in total
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radster01



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PostPosted: Tue, 14. Apr 15, 01:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Top 10 TS/TS+ UTs based on haulage efficiency:
1: Argon Mistral Super Freighter (most haulage-efficient but a little slow and high initial costs)
2: Split Caiman Hauler ((light on shields but cheaper and faster (less likely overtaken by competitors and hostiles))
3: Paranid Demeter Hauler (a mid-point for the above two; also relatively cheap)


According to the X3 Wiki:

Mistral Super Freighters are a lackluster choice for Universe Traders. With the weakest shields and fewest guns of any TS+ and only average cargo and speed, the MSF might not be the best choice for this role. Its biggest claim to fame is the simplicity of supplying a freshly purchased Mistral with a jumpdrive, as they are available right there at the shipyard.

Are you sure that other TS+'s would'nt surpass the haulage efficncy of the Caiman Hauler? Both the Paranid Snotra and the Split Drake seem to outclass the Caiman Hauler.

What formula did you use for haulage efficiency?

Regarding this formula:

B = price of first
M = price after last
N = max number of buyable tunings
k = number of tunings already bought

price = B + k * (M-B)/N

How do you find the max no. of tunings? I've got it to work for cargo, but tunings no luck.

BTW, I don't put Rudder Tunings on my freighters, can't be bothered Laughing

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