[Feature Request] "Are you sure?" for all fire and move buttons!!!
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- Vandragorax
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 04:25
Nodus, you took half of my sentence as a quote, completely out of context from the rest of the sentence... please don't leave out the part in bold:
"You cannot PREDICT when you are about to "partake in actions that are important" if you just wanted to check someone's skills" - this is a ROUTINE TASK.
You are saying that it is a predictable action to fire someone. I posit that it is not, it is a serious and irreversible action which can be entirely unpredictable due to the fact that I can perform this action accidentally from the same menu where ALL THE OTHER npc functions are listed, therefore this is bad design.
It is a ROUTINE task to check npc skills, or issue them new orders. It should not be required that I quick save before this every time on the off chance that I might accidentally press 3 instead of 2 (they happen to be next to each other on the keyboard and when giving 100 different orders to different npcs, mistakes can happen easily).
It's all a matter of risk. I don't want to have to draw up a risk table here to show you the point (although I may have to ) but essentially the risk is too high to accidentally fire someone during routine NPC conversations.
I happen to agree with you that separation of the options may be a preferable solution. But you seem to be arguing against the solution being needed in the first place!
"You cannot PREDICT when you are about to "partake in actions that are important" if you just wanted to check someone's skills" - this is a ROUTINE TASK.
You are saying that it is a predictable action to fire someone. I posit that it is not, it is a serious and irreversible action which can be entirely unpredictable due to the fact that I can perform this action accidentally from the same menu where ALL THE OTHER npc functions are listed, therefore this is bad design.
It is a ROUTINE task to check npc skills, or issue them new orders. It should not be required that I quick save before this every time on the off chance that I might accidentally press 3 instead of 2 (they happen to be next to each other on the keyboard and when giving 100 different orders to different npcs, mistakes can happen easily).
It's all a matter of risk. I don't want to have to draw up a risk table here to show you the point (although I may have to ) but essentially the risk is too high to accidentally fire someone during routine NPC conversations.
I happen to agree with you that separation of the options may be a preferable solution. But you seem to be arguing against the solution being needed in the first place!
Voted "No"
Less ressources for taping something totally broken, overloaded and slow.
Instead invest those ressources in a completly better UI.
It is slow and annoying to navigate through the menus already. Please don't add even more submenus.
Improve UI first, then add luxury stuff like that if you can afford it.
Less ressources for taping something totally broken, overloaded and slow.
Instead invest those ressources in a completly better UI.
It is slow and annoying to navigate through the menus already. Please don't add even more submenus.
Improve UI first, then add luxury stuff like that if you can afford it.
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Und wenn ein Forenbösewicht, was Ungezogenes spricht, dann hol' ich meinen Kaktus und der sticht sticht sticht.
/l、
゙(゚、 。 7
l、゙ ~ヽ /
じしf_, )ノ
- NodusCursorius
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon, 13. Jan 14, 15:51
No. I did not. In fact what I responded with on the first quote, and the second quote, and then provided alternative methods to check NPC skills directly relates to checking someone's skills.BlackDemon wrote:Nodus, you took half of my sentence as a quote, completely out of context
As in: I addressed that specific point (of checking an NPCs skills) topic three times, and provided two alternative interaction possibilities. That's hardly taking something out of context when I'm interacting with it directly.
No. I said that if you have messed it up in the past you can predict that you may mess it up again in the future. You are fully aware of when, and where, the exact conditions are met that allow you to accidentally fire someone. That completely dismisses the issue of something being predictable or not.BlackDemon wrote:You are saying that it is a predictable action to fire someone.
This is where we agree. Looking back to my Quicksave/Quickload hotkey discussion and the proposed solution we can borrow from that, the "You're Fired" hotkey should be separate. Just like Quickload is F9 and Quicksave is placed very far away on F5, perhaps "You're Fired" should be nowhere near the other buttons.BlackDemon wrote:due to the fact that I can perform this action accidentally from the same menu where ALL THE OTHER npc functions are listed, therefore this is bad design.
And that is where we differ. I disagree that providing a confirmation box is the right solution because it is inconsistent with everything else in the game. Every mistake we make is our own doing, unless we've saved prior. Be it mechanical, accidental, or otherwise - the responsibility is our own, for the default UI, everywhere else.
So let's keep it consistent and keep the responsibility with the user, but provide them a better interface to interact with.
Example, placing You're Fired on a the menu away from other options, on a key that is not next to other "used" keys:
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[1] Come on board [4] Take out the trash
[2] Buy McDonalds [5] Brush your teeth
[3] Show me your skills [6] Stop stealing my lunch
[0]You're fired
- Vandragorax
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 04:25
BlackDemon wrote:I happen to agree with you that separation of the options may be a preferable solution.
[ external image ]
- NodusCursorius
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Mon, 13. Jan 14, 15:51
Can you imagine having to do a smalltalk before firing them, and failing? In Ren's voice:BlackDemon wrote:http://www.webpurchase.co.uk/Graham/CFA ... -fired.jpg
"I gotta admit, you make a pretty convincing argument. How about you get that idea of yours rolling before the PMC does?"
- Vandragorax
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 04:25
- ubuntufreakdragon
- Posts: 5189
- Joined: Thu, 23. Jun 11, 14:57
Read the startpost, I'm pretty sure it doesn't some serious resources, as the solution is already there, by the way ever heard of the mighty mystic salami tactic?Tamina wrote:Voted "No"
Less ressources for taping something totally broken, overloaded and slow.
Instead invest those ressources in a completly better UI.
It is slow and annoying to navigate through the menus already. Please don't add even more submenus.
Improve UI first, then add luxury stuff like that if you can afford it.
My X3 Mods
XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist
XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist
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- Posts: 7776
- Joined: Sat, 14. Feb 04, 23:07
Voted NO.
Don't want an extra stage to go through just to confirm. However would really like it of they could shift the "You're fired" option off 3. I frequently use the 4-3-1 sequence to Plot Course to ships, etc from the map. Also a 4-3 sequence from within the ship Details screen is used to open comms with the crew on board. These hotkey sequences are fairly heavily programmed into muscle memory & can be rattled off very fast.
Unfortunately in the wrong context it can also lead to rapidly firing crew. Don't want another button to press, just move it almost anywhere apart from 3 & I'd be happy. Maybe swap it round with 4 (work here)?
Don't want an extra stage to go through just to confirm. However would really like it of they could shift the "You're fired" option off 3. I frequently use the 4-3-1 sequence to Plot Course to ships, etc from the map. Also a 4-3 sequence from within the ship Details screen is used to open comms with the crew on board. These hotkey sequences are fairly heavily programmed into muscle memory & can be rattled off very fast.
Unfortunately in the wrong context it can also lead to rapidly firing crew. Don't want another button to press, just move it almost anywhere apart from 3 & I'd be happy. Maybe swap it round with 4 (work here)?
- Vandragorax
- Posts: 1183
- Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 04:25
I agree that anything irreversible without a lot of effort (firing, work here, etc.) should be moved far away from numbers 1-4 so that we need to think about it and move our hands to hit the right number.
That's all they need to do. As stated above, there is a lot of muscle memory that goes into all these menus and hitting the wrong combo once can be disastrous, when it shouldn't be.
That's all they need to do. As stated above, there is a lot of muscle memory that goes into all these menus and hitting the wrong combo once can be disastrous, when it shouldn't be.
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- Moderator (English)
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- Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
I decided to wait a while before replying as I found that first sentence a bit rude despite the caveat. Nevertheless, I can accept that wasn't your aim. And in retrospect, my earlier sentence starting "I think he is..." was probably a bit rude first. Sorry about that.NodusCursorius wrote: I feel like you're being intellectually dishonest with me, or there's a miscommunication. We agree that there needs to be a solution, and disagree about which solution may produce more efficient results.
I agree with the OP that a different solution is needed, it seems/seemed like you felt that there was already a solution. You chose to explain in detail why you didn't agree and I chose to reply why I personally didn't think your points were valid. Not trying to be dishonest, just disagreeing with the rationale (with examples that can then be scrutinised rather than just "I think that is wrong" which doesn't help).
As mentioned by others, I also had in mind the muscle memory aspect of clicking icons and key shortcuts, not just the positions on the keyboard. Although I think that it is possible for someone regularly quick saving to also to get into the habit of using quick load and then it is possible for someone to press the wrong one when in real life "autopilot" or if distracted.
Muscle memory was my the reason behind asking for "You're fired" to be removed from the radial memory and whilst I can see that putting it back as something like "0" in your diagram would solve that, I personally don't think Egosoft are going to move away from their standardised 6 or less system (for aesthetic and/or control pad reasons).
Fundamentally, one of the reasons why I happen to think that adding a different step to "you're fired" only isn't a big deal is because I don't use it much and I would be surprised if many other people do.
Although that is perhaps because I have either not made huge fleets in vanilla, or in modded games, i have used Show Me Your Skills mod. Although whilst recognising that, I also feel that it would be better to know skills in vanilla easier than to keep it easy to fire just for skill checking purposes. If for whatever reason there are people wanting to do a lot of regular firing I can certainly understand them wanting to keep the option clean.
This is easily solved with an undo action.
Most times you press the 'fire npc' button you do so on purpose, 2nd guessing user actions always makes for a bad user experience "eg: are you sureeee you want to delete this file? and this one too?" etc.
Of course on the other hand losing a great npc because of a twitch movement (or tiny menu on 1440p monitor...) is also a bad user experience.
The answer is to have the npc fired when you fire them. On the off chance you want them back, there should be a time limited option to call them back.
For example: You ask Betty/Yisha for a roster of all people your currently hiring ("give me the list, please!".. no I'm jk, please, no more). In this list, people you've recently fired are still listed for a day or so thus allowing you the opportunity to call them and hire them back.
On another note, hello everyone, I'm new here, recently discovered this amazing gem of a game and can't wait to get into modding it.
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edited for clarity
Most times you press the 'fire npc' button you do so on purpose, 2nd guessing user actions always makes for a bad user experience "eg: are you sureeee you want to delete this file? and this one too?" etc.
Of course on the other hand losing a great npc because of a twitch movement (or tiny menu on 1440p monitor...) is also a bad user experience.
The answer is to have the npc fired when you fire them. On the off chance you want them back, there should be a time limited option to call them back.
For example: You ask Betty/Yisha for a roster of all people your currently hiring ("give me the list, please!".. no I'm jk, please, no more). In this list, people you've recently fired are still listed for a day or so thus allowing you the opportunity to call them and hire them back.
On another note, hello everyone, I'm new here, recently discovered this amazing gem of a game and can't wait to get into modding it.
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edited for clarity
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- Moderator (English)
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- Joined: Tue, 30. Mar 04, 12:28
Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy the game!Taleth wrote: On another note, hello everyone, I'm new here, recently discovered this amazing gem of a game and can't wait to get into modding it.
Easily overlooked but this thread was last replied to just over a year ago and bumping really old threads is kinda naughty. Don't let that discourage you from making new threads to ask questions etc, or to reply to other, newer thread
The Rebirth wiki, with various player and Egosoft info here:
https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... birth+Wiki
A Q&A thread listing some player info on page 1 is here:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=347917
- ubuntufreakdragon
- Posts: 5189
- Joined: Thu, 23. Jun 11, 14:57
I hope the thread won't get closed as the Request is still pending.
@Are you sure for Quicksaves You should only be asked if the Save is old enough e.g. a new full Save was made since that point.
That rehire idea is pretty good.
@Are you sure for Quicksaves You should only be asked if the Save is old enough e.g. a new full Save was made since that point.
That rehire idea is pretty good.
My X3 Mods
XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist
XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist
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- Posts: 2585
- Joined: Mon, 20. Jun 11, 13:16
The way I see it, the cost of such a "feature" (new incarnation of Microsoft animated paper-clip? "It looks like you are trying to fire a minion...") would outweigh the benefit:
The cost = additional mouse click on EVERY firing - I fire waaaaaay more than I keep, as I really chew through candidates (I'm sure many/most do)
The benefit = prevention of accidental and irreversible loss of good candidates - this will vary from person to person: to some this happens often, to some never, most probably somewhere in the middle ie. occasionally (I voted 'no', and then 10mins later accidentally fired a 5-star greasemonkey, lol!) For me, it's a VERY uncommon occasion, so the inconvenience would heavily outweigh the benefit.
The "undo" option seems ok, or some form of rehire. I think, ideally, a fired candidate shouldn't be sunk from the labour pool, but should be returned to it - after all, when a job-seeker is interviewed and not hired, they generally keep looking! One catch, though: I think that fired staff shouldn't go straight into the normal lists, but go into a separate waiting list (accessible, but separate) for a short time (maybe until player leaves that zone), to prevent having to dodge that name repeatedly while going through candidates. This may require a non-trivial programming tweak, however.
The cost = additional mouse click on EVERY firing - I fire waaaaaay more than I keep, as I really chew through candidates (I'm sure many/most do)
The benefit = prevention of accidental and irreversible loss of good candidates - this will vary from person to person: to some this happens often, to some never, most probably somewhere in the middle ie. occasionally (I voted 'no', and then 10mins later accidentally fired a 5-star greasemonkey, lol!) For me, it's a VERY uncommon occasion, so the inconvenience would heavily outweigh the benefit.
The "undo" option seems ok, or some form of rehire. I think, ideally, a fired candidate shouldn't be sunk from the labour pool, but should be returned to it - after all, when a job-seeker is interviewed and not hired, they generally keep looking! One catch, though: I think that fired staff shouldn't go straight into the normal lists, but go into a separate waiting list (accessible, but separate) for a short time (maybe until player leaves that zone), to prevent having to dodge that name repeatedly while going through candidates. This may require a non-trivial programming tweak, however.
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Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
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Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
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The Write Stuff
Boron passenger: "You must hurry - my testicles are drying out!"
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Born on Lave, raised on Freeport 7...
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The Write Stuff