[Feature Request] "Are you sure?" for all fire and move buttons!!!

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Do you require an "Are you sure?" Question

Yes it's pretty annoying to lose crew by accidental hiting the buttom, or having them onboard
9
15%
Yes but only for "You are fired"
32
52%
Don't Care
4
7%
No, It would just bock me from firing my Crew
16
26%
 
Total votes: 61

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Vandragorax
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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 12:23

NodusCursorius wrote:Are you about to partake in actions that are important or at risk of loss? Back up the data. (quick save)
This is the exact point of the OP - and I've had this situation too.

You cannot PREDICT when you are about to "partake in actions that are important" if you just wanted to check someone's skills, or give a new order, and you accidentally press "you're fired" with a slip of the finger on the number keys. You do not expect that you are going to partake in serious actions like that just by opening one menu and pressing the wrong button once. It should take TWO wrong button presses to confirm it.

Your example is fine for when you're going to try to cap a ship, or build a new station, or something else you know could go wrong, but not for routine crew examination and order giving. It should simply not be possible to accidentally fire some crew member from their main conversation menu! Or are you saying we should be quick saving every time we want to converse with an NPC "just in case"? Because that will get tedious.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 12:50

I think he is and not only would that be an inelegant, time-consuming and over-complicated way to avoid the issue, it can also be shown to be inaccurate with the following example:

When quick-saving, a person could quick-load by mistake. If Quick-load doesn't have a "Are you sure?" option, you over-right your current game (= bad). If Quick-load does have a "Are you sure?" option, it would be a clear example that Egosoft recognises that these kinds of checks are worth using.

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NodusCursorius
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Post by NodusCursorius » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 12:51

BlackDemon wrote:You cannot PREDICT when you are about to "partake in actions that are important"
I disagree, from both a user and developer standpoint. Especially when the topic is about preventing a very specific mistake that occurs on a very specific screen, indicating (and through admission) that people are aware of the mistake, where it may occur to them, and what precaution could take place.
but not for routine crew examination and order giving.
Performing routine crew examinations permits two options that do not require speaking to the NPC:

1. The used NPC skills (1 to 3 of them, depending upon role) are displayed in the default interaction box on the top-right of your screen. It will always display the skills relevant to that specific NPC role and the number of stars per skill.

2. Showing the Details of a Crewmember through a properties menu or otherwise allows you to select [4] Details which will display a complete listing of all skills, along with the number of stars per skill

Neither require the dangerous option of actually speaking to the NPC.
BlackDemon wrote:It should simply not be possible to accidentally ...
Why not? We're punished for friendly fire, our exploration crates explode from inaccurate shots, and ejecting the wrong wares for police security will reward us with gunfire. When I'm fighting beside a station I've grown wise enough to be extra careful with my autoaiming shots because of lessons learned in the past from misfiring. This should apply to the current topic as well.

What I would rather support is a separation of commands, much like they do with [6] Goodbye; in that certain commands are set away from otherwise common commands in an effort to provide both consistency in button placement as well as minimize the player pressing the wrong button due to its positioning beside a "heavy traffic" button.
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:When quick-saving...
There is a good reason it does not ask us permission when Quick Saving.

User responsibility is important. Design is also important.

Quick Save = F5
Quick Load = F9

Do you know what is on F4 and F6? Nothing.
Do you know what is on F8 and F10? Nothing.

Separation of data choices where data alteration is occurring. That means the solution lies in layout of the menus (see my earlier idea) and not a nagging, secondary failsafe.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:01

NodusCursorius wrote: Why not? We're punished for friendly fire, our exploration crates explode from inaccurate shots, and ejecting the wrong wares for police security will reward us with gunfire.
The first two examples are not relevant because they are about repercussions related to doing the intended task (pulling the trigger).

It is hard to see how the third example is relevant either because illegal wares are marked in a different colour so either the player was to slow or didn't want to eject the illegal wares.

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NodusCursorius
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Post by NodusCursorius » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:07

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:The first two examples are not relevant because they are about repercussions related to doing the intended task (pulling the trigger).
And if the player misfires, such as launching a missile when they forgot to open the Longrange Scanner first? Pulling the trigger doesn't alter the relevancy because either a physical or mental mistake occurred contrary to what the player wanted. That is precisely what is being discussed.
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:It is hard to see how the third example is relevant either because illegal wares are marked in a different colour so either the player was to slow or didn't want to eject the illegal wares.
And the "You're Fired!" is marked under a different button, with a different hotkey. A completely different area of space. Yet the player could still select and eject the wrong wares by mistake.

I feel like you're being intellectually dishonest with me, or there's a miscommunication. We agree that there needs to be a solution, and disagree about which solution may produce more efficient results.

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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:32

Nodus, you took half of my sentence as a quote, completely out of context from the rest of the sentence... please don't leave out the part in bold:

"You cannot PREDICT when you are about to "partake in actions that are important" if you just wanted to check someone's skills" - this is a ROUTINE TASK.

You are saying that it is a predictable action to fire someone. I posit that it is not, it is a serious and irreversible action which can be entirely unpredictable due to the fact that I can perform this action accidentally from the same menu where ALL THE OTHER npc functions are listed, therefore this is bad design.

It is a ROUTINE task to check npc skills, or issue them new orders. It should not be required that I quick save before this every time on the off chance that I might accidentally press 3 instead of 2 (they happen to be next to each other on the keyboard and when giving 100 different orders to different npcs, mistakes can happen easily).

It's all a matter of risk. I don't want to have to draw up a risk table here to show you the point (although I may have to :P) but essentially the risk is too high to accidentally fire someone during routine NPC conversations.

I happen to agree with you that separation of the options may be a preferable solution. But you seem to be arguing against the solution being needed in the first place!

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Post by Tamina » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:39

Voted "No"
Less ressources for taping something totally broken, overloaded and slow.
Instead invest those ressources in a completly better UI.

It is slow and annoying to navigate through the menus already. Please don't add even more submenus.

Improve UI first, then add luxury stuff like that if you can afford it.

Code: Select all

  /l、 
゙(゚、 。 7 
 l、゙ ~ヽ   / 
 じしf_, )ノ 
This is Tamina. Copy Tamina to your signature to help her achieve world domination.

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Post by NodusCursorius » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:49

BlackDemon wrote:Nodus, you took half of my sentence as a quote, completely out of context
No. I did not. In fact what I responded with on the first quote, and the second quote, and then provided alternative methods to check NPC skills directly relates to checking someone's skills.

As in: I addressed that specific point (of checking an NPCs skills) topic three times, and provided two alternative interaction possibilities. That's hardly taking something out of context when I'm interacting with it directly.
BlackDemon wrote:You are saying that it is a predictable action to fire someone.
No. I said that if you have messed it up in the past you can predict that you may mess it up again in the future. You are fully aware of when, and where, the exact conditions are met that allow you to accidentally fire someone. That completely dismisses the issue of something being predictable or not.
BlackDemon wrote:due to the fact that I can perform this action accidentally from the same menu where ALL THE OTHER npc functions are listed, therefore this is bad design.
This is where we agree. Looking back to my Quicksave/Quickload hotkey discussion and the proposed solution we can borrow from that, the "You're Fired" hotkey should be separate. Just like Quickload is F9 and Quicksave is placed very far away on F5, perhaps "You're Fired" should be nowhere near the other buttons.

And that is where we differ. I disagree that providing a confirmation box is the right solution because it is inconsistent with everything else in the game. Every mistake we make is our own doing, unless we've saved prior. Be it mechanical, accidental, or otherwise - the responsibility is our own, for the default UI, everywhere else.

So let's keep it consistent and keep the responsibility with the user, but provide them a better interface to interact with.

Example, placing You're Fired on a the menu away from other options, on a key that is not next to other "used" keys:

Code: Select all

  [1] Come on board			[4] Take out the trash
[2] Buy McDonalds			    [5] Brush your teeth
  [3] Show me your skills	[6] Stop stealing my lunch
 				[0]You're fired
Remember: I'm on your side. These are just brainy discussions, nothing intended to harm.

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Vandragorax
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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 13:59

BlackDemon wrote:I happen to agree with you that separation of the options may be a preferable solution.

Image

:D

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NodusCursorius
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Post by NodusCursorius » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 14:06

Can you imagine having to do a smalltalk before firing them, and failing? In Ren's voice:

"I gotta admit, you make a pretty convincing argument. How about you get that idea of yours rolling before the PMC does?"

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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 14:20

If they all called me "Lord Ren" I'd be much more inclined to keep them in my workforce instead of "accidentally" firing them anyway! Yes that's right... sometimes I even fire them ON PURPOSE!!! Mwahwaahahahaha :P

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Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 14:44

Tamina wrote:Voted "No"
Less ressources for taping something totally broken, overloaded and slow.
Instead invest those ressources in a completly better UI.

It is slow and annoying to navigate through the menus already. Please don't add even more submenus.

Improve UI first, then add luxury stuff like that if you can afford it.
Read the startpost, I'm pretty sure it doesn't some serious resources, as the solution is already there, by the way ever heard of the mighty mystic salami tactic?
My X3 Mods

XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 14:53

Voted NO.

Don't want an extra stage to go through just to confirm. However would really like it of they could shift the "You're fired" option off 3. I frequently use the 4-3-1 sequence to Plot Course to ships, etc from the map. Also a 4-3 sequence from within the ship Details screen is used to open comms with the crew on board. These hotkey sequences are fairly heavily programmed into muscle memory & can be rattled off very fast.

Unfortunately in the wrong context it can also lead to rapidly firing crew. Don't want another button to press, just move it almost anywhere apart from 3 & I'd be happy. Maybe swap it round with 4 (work here)?

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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 16:07

I agree that anything irreversible without a lot of effort (firing, work here, etc.) should be moved far away from numbers 1-4 so that we need to think about it and move our hands to hit the right number.

That's all they need to do. As stated above, there is a lot of muscle memory that goes into all these menus and hitting the wrong combo once can be disastrous, when it shouldn't be.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Mon, 16. Mar 15, 21:14

NodusCursorius wrote: I feel like you're being intellectually dishonest with me, or there's a miscommunication. We agree that there needs to be a solution, and disagree about which solution may produce more efficient results.
I decided to wait a while before replying as I found that first sentence a bit rude despite the caveat. Nevertheless, I can accept that wasn't your aim. And in retrospect, my earlier sentence starting "I think he is..." was probably a bit rude first. Sorry about that.

I agree with the OP that a different solution is needed, it seems/seemed like you felt that there was already a solution. You chose to explain in detail why you didn't agree and I chose to reply why I personally didn't think your points were valid. Not trying to be dishonest, just disagreeing with the rationale (with examples that can then be scrutinised rather than just "I think that is wrong" which doesn't help).

As mentioned by others, I also had in mind the muscle memory aspect of clicking icons and key shortcuts, not just the positions on the keyboard. Although I think that it is possible for someone regularly quick saving to also to get into the habit of using quick load and then it is possible for someone to press the wrong one when in real life "autopilot" or if distracted.

Muscle memory was my the reason behind asking for "You're fired" to be removed from the radial memory and whilst I can see that putting it back as something like "0" in your diagram would solve that, I personally don't think Egosoft are going to move away from their standardised 6 or less system (for aesthetic and/or control pad reasons).

Fundamentally, one of the reasons why I happen to think that adding a different step to "you're fired" only isn't a big deal is because I don't use it much and I would be surprised if many other people do.

Although that is perhaps because I have either not made huge fleets in vanilla, or in modded games, i have used Show Me Your Skills mod. Although whilst recognising that, I also feel that it would be better to know skills in vanilla easier than to keep it easy to fire just for skill checking purposes. If for whatever reason there are people wanting to do a lot of regular firing I can certainly understand them wanting to keep the option clean.

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