Russians Close Mcdonalds in former Ukraine and Russia

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fiksal
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Post by fiksal » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 19:14

Timsup2nothin wrote: Understandable. My argument wasn't really in favor of government micromanagement, it was just against the idea that 'as McD's goes, so all foreign investors should be afraid they will as well'. I'm expecting most of the major agribusiness firms to invest heavily in Russia over the next decade, and they would be silly to draw comparisons between themselves and a fast food distributor so I doubt this will have any effect on them.
Fair enough. On my part it's just a speculation, we'll just have to see how it goes.

If mcdonalds thing is a result of other laws and regulations, I'm more worried about them rather than mcdonalds itself.

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Incubi
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Post by Incubi » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 19:32

Did they ban coke?

Russian Coke Commercial. They look so happy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBh-J3ec7Mw

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fiksal
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Post by fiksal » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 19:59

Incubi wrote:Did they ban coke?

Russian Coke Commercial. They look so happy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBh-J3ec7Mw
Good question, not as far as I know.

Dont know about right now, but coke in some cities in Russia was made by local soft drink factories. It was coke only in the label and not much else.


Fun ad. I was at that park before. The space shuttle is parked there now.

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felter
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Post by felter » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 20:19

Timsup2nothin wrote: Buns may be the least effective example, because even McD's has limits on how far they will ship buns in order to consolidate bun production into a giant factory bakery. Frozen meat patties are a different matter (thanks to Fiksal for sourcing the Russian meat supplier, well done) since they can be shipped further.
I'm sorry but it is a valid and an effective example, just because you do not like it, does not make it bad. The example was there to show that it is not just minimum wage staff that is effected from such closures, which was what someone was trying to say, and the example does this quite fine. I have no idea where Mcd's buy their buns, I never made any kind of statement saying I did, I didn't even know they made them in a giant factory bakery.

I can comment about where the buns come from in the UK, those buns are made either in Heywood near Manchester or Banbury, Oxfordshire and neither of these bakery's have anything to do with McDonalds, apart from they supply them with bakery produce, McDonalds don't own them.

As far as I'm aware Burger King gets their burgers from someone else. So if you were to shut MacDonalds down and burger king took over from them, then the people making the burgers for McDonalds would loose their jobs. This fits in perfectly with my example.

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Post by Timsup2nothin » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 21:09

felter wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote: Buns may be the least effective example, because even McD's has limits on how far they will ship buns in order to consolidate bun production into a giant factory bakery. Frozen meat patties are a different matter (thanks to Fiksal for sourcing the Russian meat supplier, well done) since they can be shipped further.
I'm sorry but it is a valid and an effective example, just because you do not like it, does not make it bad. The example was there to show that it is not just minimum wage staff that is effected from such closures, which was what someone was trying to say, and the example does this quite fine. I have no idea where Mcd's buy their buns, I never made any kind of statement saying I did, I didn't even know they made them in a giant factory bakery.

I can comment about where the buns come from in the UK, those buns are made either in Heywood near Manchester or Banbury, Oxfordshire and neither of these bakery's have anything to do with McDonalds, apart from they supply them with bakery produce, McDonalds don't own them.

As far as I'm aware Burger King gets their burgers from someone else. So if you were to shut MacDonalds down and burger king took over from them, then the people making the burgers for McDonalds would loose their jobs. This fits in perfectly with my example.
My apologies. I meant that the buns were the least effective example for the point I've been making, which in effect makes them the best example for your point. I thought that was clear from the context but should have been more diligent.

Looking at your UK situation, as already noted the buns support your argument well, as they are produced in the UK. Supplies of a less perishable nature may not be as supportive of the local economy.

Ultimately, even if every supply is produced in the same domestic market the particular McD outlet serves, the franchise fees are lost. This means that a domestic fast food chain is still going to be superior to an international corporation.

Again, my main point is that while this holds true for fast food, it does not apply to most industries. I pointed out that DuPont Chemical brings technologies and their own credibility to the marketplace, so they aren't subject to the sort of exile that McDonald's is.

The major agribusiness corporations I mentioned earlier are similar. They will be bringing technology to bear on a market that is grossly underserved in Russia (as demonstrated by the much discussed effects of sanctions). They will invest because the potential for profit in this market is huge, and they will do so without concern for what happens to McDonald's because they cannot be replaced by Russian agribusiness because there is none with comparable technology and experience.
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Olterin
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Post by Olterin » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 21:22

Timsup2nothin wrote:The major agribusiness corporations I mentioned earlier are similar. They will be bringing technology to bear on a market that is grossly underserved in Russia (as demonstrated by the much discussed effects of sanctions). They will invest because the potential for profit in this market is huge, and they will do so without concern for what happens to McDonald's because they cannot be replaced by Russian agribusiness because there is none with comparable technology and experience.
The cynic in me can't help but wonder how long that technology will stay in the hands of the investors - because that same cynic says that as soon as the tech is there (or even "just" the hardware), the corporations will be kicked out with all their assets confiscated. Not that that has ever happened in Russia before :roll:


... Sorry to go off on a tangent. But the closure of (some) McD's in Russia does seem to indicate there might be a return to this kind of policy.
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Wed, 22. Oct 14, 21:38

Olterin wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote:The major agribusiness corporations I mentioned earlier are similar. They will be bringing technology to bear on a market that is grossly underserved in Russia (as demonstrated by the much discussed effects of sanctions). They will invest because the potential for profit in this market is huge, and they will do so without concern for what happens to McDonald's because they cannot be replaced by Russian agribusiness because there is none with comparable technology and experience.
The cynic in me can't help but wonder how long that technology will stay in the hands of the investors - because that same cynic says that as soon as the tech is there (or even "just" the hardware), the corporations will be kicked out with all their assets confiscated. Not that that has ever happened in Russia before :roll:


... Sorry to go off on a tangent. But the closure of (some) McD's in Russia does seem to indicate there might be a return to this kind of policy.
The thing is that seizing the technology to fry a burger is different from seizing the technology to run a factory farm, and I think the Russians know it. There is a chance that domestic competitors could grow, eventually, but corporations like those tend to play the 'protect our patents or we pull out overnight' card. Even if competition starts to look viable there is a huge setback involved. Obviously McDs doesn't have those cards in their hands.
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 23. Oct 14, 01:56

Timsup2nothin wrote:Absolutely. Adam Smith's pin factory has overtaken every enterprise.
Well, if it works...
..McDonald's doesn't create the market for hamburgers, they just supply the hamburgers. In the absence of McDonald's someone else will supply hamburgers. That someone else will still need buns, and those buns are more likely to come from local sources and support local jobs.
ROFL ROFL ROFL! You can't be serious! Look, man, you're smarter than this. You can't honestly believe that McDonald's doesn't create its own market? Have you ever eaten a McDonald's hamburger? They suck! They're dry, the buns are tasteless and the only thing good about them are the condiments and the onions... That's it. The patty, itself, is like old spackling paste. And, I should know - I've eaten old spackling paste.

But, get a car-full of kids and you just try to drive by a McDonald's without the little brats screaming their bloody heads off! Go ahead, try it! Do you think McDonald's puts "Play Areas" in its stores because there is a demand for "Play Areas" and they're just serving that demand? Do you think that a guy dresses up as a pedophilic clown because there is a demand for pedophilic clowns?

Companies who "win the game" do not rely on "demand" in order to sell their products. That's just self-defeating and leaving far to much up to chance. No, companies who "win the game" create their own markets and then exploit the heck out of them. That is what McDonald's does.

No, that's not to say that everything is bad with McDonald's food. I like a few items on their menu. I like the salads and some of the breakfast items. I like the apple pies and chocolate shakes. I even like the french fries, some of the time. So, they do have some menu items that you can't get somewhere else and that are worthy of paying attention to. Here, they've also created their own market by selling desirable food. But, it's not "burgers" and that's for sure.
The packaging is another matter. A McDonald's franchise buys everything with a McD's logo from the corporation, which is one of the world's largest suppliers of paper products. That entire part of the business does nothing at all for the local economy, and any McDonald's franchisee will tell you that the most expensive part of a McDonald's hamburger is the wrapper.
Dude... McDonald's is not going to ship paper from the United States to Russia... They're not going to ship styrofoam or plastic, either. These are very expensive items to ship! No, these products are going to be manufactured according to McDonald's specifications by regional manufacturers. That's how "Big Restaurant" supply systems work. I know this because I have dealt with these sorts of suppliers and manufacturers for a very long time. McDonald's is not going to desire to waste money by shipping low-margin "air" overseas. Ain't gonna happen; They'll have a regional manufacturer make that stuff.
The benefit to the local economy of replacing McD's with a local chain isn't as big as replacing them with independent hamburger stands that actually draw from all local sources, but it is still beneficial.
Raising the bar, eh? Where are these "independent hamburger stands" and why is McDonald's able to muscle in on their territory? You can't make comparisons against something that doesn't exist.

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Post by Timsup2nothin » Thu, 23. Oct 14, 02:37

Morkonan wrote:
Raising the bar, eh? Where are these "independent hamburger stands" and why is McDonald's able to muscle in on their territory? You can't make comparisons against something that doesn't exist.
McD's muscles in using the power of the pin factory.

It is far cheaper to mass produce 'hamburger' patties out of spackling paste in a factory that serves a thousand McD's outlets than it is to make a hamburger patty to order. So the independent hamburger stand is extinct. Doesn't change the fact that if they still existed they would be better for the local economy, and also make better burgers.

Because of their enormous economies of scale McD's can afford to drive competitors into the ground with advertising (which kids are susceptible to)...but they aren't creating a market, just crushing competition.
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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 23. Oct 14, 03:31

Timsup2nothin wrote:...Doesn't change the fact that if they still existed they would be better for the local economy,...
And then...
Because of their enormous economies of scale McD's ...
/sigh

It's OK, man. We can agree to disagree on this. I don't believe we're going to progress past "economics."

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Post by Timsup2nothin » Thu, 23. Oct 14, 05:09

Morkonan wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote:...Doesn't change the fact that if they still existed they would be better for the local economy,...
And then...
Because of their enormous economies of scale McD's ...
/sigh

It's OK, man. We can agree to disagree on this. I don't believe we're going to progress past "economics."
Economies of scale are great for an enterprise, but not particularly good for the economy as a whole. This is easily illustrated by taking the economy of scale to its logical limit...the monopoly...which is recognized as the kryptonite of capitalism.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

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Post by wwdragon » Fri, 24. Oct 14, 22:31

mickyd's should be closed because it sells crap, not because it's a u.s. staple. :D
Editing posts since long before I remember.

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