Construction Vessels after construction.

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hisazul
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Construction Vessels after construction.

Post by hisazul » Mon, 23. Jun 14, 05:05

Something needs to be done about this. Currently, "building" in general is one of the best points of Rebirth. But construction ship itself is the worst part of the entire process. If it gets destroyed THAT'S IT. You are screwed period and nothing can be done about this. You can't finish station and you can't assign a new one to finish it.

Even after you finish entire building process, it is still the one and only weakness of ENTIRE station. That pile of defenseless scrap metal gets hit and that's it. Your station is now permanently screwed. You CANNOT repair it, you CANNOT buy drones, you CANNOT re-arm it.

I would take magical disappearing act with architect getting moved to the station over the current state.


Here are some ideas on how to go about it:
1. Magical disappearing act. Move architect to the station and remove the ship.
2. Integrating ship into the station structure. After everything in building plan is complete unlock "integration" stage. Where construction vessel folds back, moves to some point at the structure and turns into a small docking platform. I'm sure there is PLENTY of space where it can go though the same process in reverse as module construction only to be replaced by a docking port like repair dock or administration dock.
3. When you reach the end of building and you have only one stage left, set requirement only to weapons and FFG if they are used and construction ship gets deconstructed and used as materials for the last stage. With architect getting a ride to the station.
4. Send a boarding pod with architect to the station and spawn a super-sized noisemaker(surveillance craft) that shoots a nuke at it.
5. Make construction vessels buying/hiring a tad bit different. Instead of building it you "hire" one. Pay resources and credits needed for construction of one and place your own architect on it. Once construction is done or you don't want to build it any further you com the CV and tell it to "finish construction" at which point it will fold back the the ship mode and then dock with the station it was building move architect to it and then change ownership back to NPC faction that you bought it from. After that give it command to dock with shipyard and deconstruct it giving the resources that were used to construct it back.

#5 Sounds like the easiest option to implement since it would not require any additional work in creating new addition to the game. Just one multistage command.
None of my ideas however cover mid building CV loss. That should really be covered as well. Give architect in CV ability to get assigned to project. With that maybe even allow multiple CVs to get assigned to single construction project. Would speed up resource delivery if nothing else.
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hisazul
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Post by hisazul » Mon, 23. Jun 14, 22:25

So... everyone loves things this way? Can I at least hear if this is how its going to be? If it is... then I guess I either need to figure out how xml scripting works or not bother with building.
I can't even get money I gave architect back :o she didn't buy anything worth mentioning the entire time about as useful as if I was building in DeVries. But she got 500mil of my credits on her and she won't return it... even tho ship gets trashed as soon as I move one of my 6 arawns that sit right on top of it. Even with that I already lost 70% hull on that thing.
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IceIvan45
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Re: Construction Vessels after construction.

Post by IceIvan45 » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 00:10

hisazul wrote:...You CANNOT repair it, you CANNOT buy drones, you CANNOT re-arm it...
XR 2.1 Steam Unmodded:

you can restock drones and ammo on a CV. All you need is a Defense Officer onboard. Order the D.O. to restock it's ammo and drones from their details menu. First you need to open your properties menu, scroll to your CV, select "details" and open the Management drop menu. Highlight the D.O. and select "details". This details menu will show you the different options available, you can turn "restock ammo & drones" on from there. There is a way to get to their details screen from the Comms menu but I don't think it shows those options.

In the properties menu you can select more options related to stations and ships than through the Comms menu.

Second option for defense is to assign a few Cap Ships to the CV for protection. To do that you can go to the Cap Ship Comms and tell them " Assign A New Superior", this will ask if you want to assign from the Map or List, select list, next highlight your CV and press Select. It will then show a list of possible recipients and what job your Cap Ship will do for them. Notice the D.O. option has Protect next to them. Select that option and your Cap Ship will now Patrol around your CV looking for hostiles.

Your welcome.

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Post by IceIvan45 » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 00:22

hisazul wrote:So... everyone loves things this way? Can I at least hear if this is how its going to be? If it is... then I guess I either need to figure out how xml scripting works or not bother with building.
I can't even get money I gave architect back :o she didn't buy anything worth mentioning the entire time about as useful as if I was building in DeVries. But she got 500mil of my credits on her and she won't return it... even tho ship gets trashed as soon as I move one of my 6 arawns that sit right on top of it. Even with that I already lost 70% hull on that thing.
What do you mean you can't get your money back? Is the CV destroyed? If not you should be able to use the slider in reverse to take money from the Architect.

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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 01:27

There is (or was) a bug where a SCODA architect can share the same account as the player - they do not actually have any money, they just use the player's account directly.
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Archaeosis
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Re: Construction Vessels after construction.

Post by Archaeosis » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 03:09

IceIvan45 wrote:
hisazul wrote:...You CANNOT repair it, you CANNOT buy drones, you CANNOT re-arm it...
XR 2.1 Steam Unmodded:

you can restock drones and ammo on a CV. All you need is a Defense Officer onboard. Order the D.O. to restock it's ammo and drones from their details menu. First you need to open your properties menu, scroll to your CV, select "details" and open the Management drop menu. Highlight the D.O. and select "details". This details menu will show you the different options available, you can turn "restock ammo & drones" on from there. There is a way to get to their details screen from the Comms menu but I don't think it shows those options.

In the properties menu you can select more options related to stations and ships than through the Comms menu.

Second option for defense is to assign a few Cap Ships to the CV for protection. To do that you can go to the Cap Ship Comms and tell them " Assign A New Superior", this will ask if you want to assign from the Map or List, select list, next highlight your CV and press Select. It will then show a list of possible recipients and what job your Cap Ship will do for them. Notice the D.O. option has Protect next to them. Select that option and your Cap Ship will now Patrol around your CV looking for hostiles.

Your welcome.
I'm pretty sure the OP means that when the CV is destroyed, the station is doomed, and you cannot repair, upgrade, or restock ammo/drones on the station once that's happened - and they're right. It's a terrible problem which completely ruins a station you might have spent ages on - if you don't have saves to go back to, it's incredibly irritating.

Furthermore, assigning any combat ship under another ship in order to defend it doesn't currently work, as far as I know - there's no AI implemented for that yet. Assigning combat ships to a station's defense officer works, but to my knowledge that's it.

I sympathise with you, OP - I had three stations screwed up in this way without saves to go back to. It's terrible that this is still a problem - a very severe one, too - eight months after launch. Another sad reminder that we're still not even at release quality. Here's hoping for a fix in 2.20 - but then, I've hoped for a fix in each previous patch, too...

hisazul
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Re: Construction Vessels after construction.

Post by hisazul » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 03:22

IceIvan45 wrote:
hisazul wrote:...You CANNOT repair it, you CANNOT buy drones, you CANNOT re-arm it...
XR 2.1 Steam Unmodded:

you can restock drones and ammo on a CV. All you need is a Defense Officer onboard. Order the D.O. to restock it's ammo and drones from their details menu. First you need to open your properties menu, scroll to your CV, select "details" and open the Management drop menu. Highlight the D.O. and select "details". This details menu will show you the different options available, you can turn "restock ammo & drones" on from there. There is a way to get to their details screen from the Comms menu but I don't think it shows those options.

In the properties menu you can select more options related to stations and ships than through the Comms menu.

Second option for defense is to assign a few Cap Ships to the CV for protection. To do that you can go to the Cap Ship Comms and tell them " Assign A New Superior", this will ask if you want to assign from the Map or List, select list, next highlight your CV and press Select. It will then show a list of possible recipients and what job your Cap Ship will do for them. Notice the D.O. option has Protect next to them. Select that option and your Cap Ship will now Patrol around your CV looking for hostiles.

Your welcome.
While its true that once you do get ammo/drones you can "resupply" though stations defense officer there's a nuance even then. You can't change drone numbers or switch to different ones. If you want to try something else you can't. Guess what... construction drones get blown up... you can't restock them in CV once its deployed. So how exactly would that work? Fairly sure you can't supply them to CV only station which is counter productive. And your missing the whole point of "if construction ship is dead you are screwed" and entire station slowly but surely dies. I build one station for the sole purpose of mowing plutarch down... well... once 6 arawns at once couldn't soak enough damage to protect CV, station got drilled down by bloody Interceptor Mk1 URVs... that's PATHETIC.

And all those are just work arounds for glaring issue. If your arawns engineer was not on arawn but on some civ ship tagging behind that would be equally absurd. And dedicating obscene amount of forces to protect that just negates any point in using arawn in the first place.... those forces you waste defending something that isn't even part of arawn could be used as force on its own w/o wasting time and resources on defending something that absurd.

@Roger thx on that tip, I was baffled by that bit but also couldn't even find architects account... guess now I know why lol.

Anyhoo I just want to know if ES plants to remedy this or leave it this way. And yes I do realize that 64bit conversion will probably eat away most of dev time for foreseeable future.
Archaeosis wrote:
IceIvan45 wrote:
hisazul wrote:...You CANNOT repair it, you CANNOT buy drones, you CANNOT re-arm it...
XR 2.1 Steam Unmodded:

you can restock drones and ammo on a CV. All you need is a Defense Officer onboard. Order the D.O. to restock it's ammo and drones from their details menu. First you need to open your properties menu, scroll to your CV, select "details" and open the Management drop menu. Highlight the D.O. and select "details". This details menu will show you the different options available, you can turn "restock ammo & drones" on from there. There is a way to get to their details screen from the Comms menu but I don't think it shows those options.

In the properties menu you can select more options related to stations and ships than through the Comms menu.

Second option for defense is to assign a few Cap Ships to the CV for protection. To do that you can go to the Cap Ship Comms and tell them " Assign A New Superior", this will ask if you want to assign from the Map or List, select list, next highlight your CV and press Select. It will then show a list of possible recipients and what job your Cap Ship will do for them. Notice the D.O. option has Protect next to them. Select that option and your Cap Ship will now Patrol around your CV looking for hostiles.

Your welcome.
I'm pretty sure the OP means that when the CV is destroyed, the station is doomed, and you cannot repair, upgrade, or restock ammo/drones on the station once that's happened - and they're right. It's a terrible problem which completely ruins a station you might have spent ages on - if you don't have saves to go back to, it's incredibly irritating.

Furthermore, assigning any combat ship under another ship in order to defend it doesn't currently work, as far as I know - there's no AI implemented for that yet. Assigning combat ships to a station's defense officer works, but to my knowledge that's it.

I sympathise with you, OP - I had three stations screwed up in this way without saves to go back to. It's terrible that this is still a problem - a very severe one, too - eight months after launch. Another sad reminder that we're still not even at release quality. Here's hoping for a fix in 2.20 - but then, I've hoped for a fix in each previous patch, too...
I feel you if you played this since day 1. While it's true I pre-ordered my copy lol I played for maybe 40 hours total at day one and left it alone till first content patch... been here since BtF so long enough to know that playing day one product w/o MD modding knowledge is masochism.
Fun fact... you still by this day in some places loose HoA rep for defending against PMC.... /facepalm

Doesn't help that once you enter OL I get a sudden urge to wipe argon out just for being backstabbing sneaky terrorist bigots. But then... where am I going to get ships? Reinforced metal? Ahh.... well... those are minor things lol.
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Archaeosis
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Post by Archaeosis » Tue, 24. Jun 14, 03:56

CBJ mentioned a while back that they're very much aware of this issue, so I presume they have some plan to fix it once they have time. Apparently the 2.20 patch will be focusing on the 64-bit release going public, so yeah - your guess is as good as mine as to when they'll improve the CV system.

hisazul
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Post by hisazul » Wed, 25. Jun 14, 01:01

Huh... I tried searching for any official responses involving CVs and didn't find anything. German forum? Was it worded in a funny way?

Nvm I found topic you were talking about.
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=4353606

Not interested in nitpicking words but it really doesn't say much except they know how it works.

Same as http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0 tho there response gives a bad vibe, "buy new one, they are cheap, problem solved" yippe lol

Also I really hope they aren't popping 64bit out in 2.20... that will be so buggy. They need a few months at least to work out conversion bugs. And... if they convert... that means I'll need to make a new bloody assembly scripts for cheats >_<
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Post by BlackRain » Wed, 25. Jun 14, 02:16

64 bit has been out for a while already. They are just making it the default version with the upcoming patch. Not sure yet what is going to be done with CV's and concerns have been mentioned.

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Post by linolafett » Wed, 25. Jun 14, 13:36

For 2.20 there will be probably no fix for the CV issue as the 2.20 beta patch is now already avaliable.
I am pretty sure, that this issue will be solved in an following patch!

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Post by Praefectus classis » Wed, 25. Jun 14, 18:21

At this stage, editing the save file to set a minimum hull value like some of the plot ships have is a workaround. I've done it myself and I haven't noticed it causing any problems with the building of the station. I know it's a bit of a cheat but it does give peace of mind. I wonder if that could be done for CV's in general.
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Post by wwdragon » Wed, 25. Jun 14, 21:25

I agree with OP's #1 point. Once the first station component is completed, your architect should be on-station and the construction ship should be deconstructed (if we still lose it).
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Post by hisazul » Thu, 26. Jun 14, 03:01

linolafett wrote:For 2.20 there will be probably no fix for the CV issue as the 2.20 beta patch is now already avaliable.
I am pretty sure, that this issue will be solved in an following patch!
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Post by Virusboy » Mon, 1. Dec 14, 21:43

I`m not sure, but has this been fixed yet? Having terrible problems trying to re assign an new CV to my station. Either the menus freeze or all it does is trade. no longer is there an option for proudction or building?

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Post by wysiwyg » Mon, 1. Dec 14, 21:47

Virusboy wrote:I`m not sure, but has this been fixed yet? Having terrible problems trying to re assign an new CV to my station. Either the menus freeze or all it does is trade. no longer is there an option for proudction or building?
Add the CV to your squad
Comm it
Select new order
Select "deploy to station"
Select the station with no (destroyed) CV

Should be good to go. Only works if station has no CV i.e. the old one got destroyed!

Hope that helps!

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Post by nalim27 » Tue, 2. Dec 14, 11:23

Hello,
you can assign new CV if first one was destroyed. now.

But I still agree with OP, that CV should be integrated into station (probably into first module) and stay defended by big station shields.

I can even imagine that CV crew will transform into station crew when first part was finished (so you do not buy another defense officer and engineer for the station).

Visual integration into station will require some not trivial developers effort - and this can bring new set of bugs.
So I think that magical CV disappear (and crew and wares and assigned ships migration to the station) should be enough and easy to develop.
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Tue, 2. Dec 14, 12:27

Yeah, I'd vote for either of:
1. Should disappear via a reversal of their construction animation.
2. Architect transfers after final stage is complete, and the CV un-deploys.

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Post by Virusboy » Tue, 2. Dec 14, 14:36

ok, well i got a big big problem then. I can assign the CV to the station but it doesnt give me the offer of for production or for building. Its default to Production. When i try to deploy station the menu goes to change to map / list but then freezes and i dont get the screen. The game freezes kind of. I can alt tab out to force a UI reload, which does indeed get rid of the freeze but i still cant assign the CV back to anyone?

Running v3.00 Beta 5 un modded.

Luckily for me i saved prior to starting building so i just replaced the save and started again, but its not totally fixed for sure.

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Post by wysiwyg » Tue, 2. Dec 14, 14:43

Virusboy wrote:ok, well i got a big big problem then. I can assign the CV to the station but it doesnt give me the offer of for production or for building. Its default to Production. When i try to deploy station the menu goes to change to map / list but then freezes and i dont get the screen. The game freezes kind of. I can alt tab out to force a UI reload, which does indeed get rid of the freeze but i still cant assign the CV back to anyone?

Running v3.00 Beta 5 un modded.

Luckily for me i saved prior to starting building so i just replaced the save and started again, but its not totally fixed for sure.
That's more than likely a bug and I would say report it in the beta section.

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