British law acting on our behalf against companies like egosoft REQUIRED READING

[Tasogie]

jesus MODS can we get this rubbish removed. this forum has turned into the likes of WOW an lol...... Honestly some silly young teenager threatening law suits an criminal charges against ergosoft ROFL!!

You dont even have the ability int his forum to block people so we have to suffer these......people.

[chikatilo]

I went to my local police station, told them how I couldn't repair this freighter in a space game and how this guy from Germany was responsible. They promised me he'll be behind bars before midnight.

Thanks OP!

[giskard]

I looked in to that for a broken Oblivion disk back in 2006.

Trading Standards will not do anything for a disk issue... I tried.

Also Steam is not UK based, I believe its in Seatle USA which the wiki says is in the US state of Washington. Not to be confused with the city of that name. Yes I know, sounds a little odd. But anyway....That means the laws you need to look up are for Washington State.

I think this may be of help.... Googled it.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=1792#.UqELgeL9_Kc

[dzhedzho]

I looked in to that for a broken Oblivion disk back in 2006.

Trading Standards will not do anything for a disk issue... I tried.

Also Steam is not UK based, I believe its in Seatle USA which the wiki says is in the US state of Washington. Not to be confused with the city of that name. Yes I know, sounds a little odd. But anyway....That means the laws you need to look up are for Washington State.

I think this may be of help.... Googled it.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=1792#.UqELgeL9_Kc

EU branch of steam is based in Luxemburg, please read the quote from steam EULA, and let this die..

[BicRazor]

Most industries have a set of standards.
Unfortunately the digital gaming industry doesn't.
So until everyone presses their politicians to act no change will be forth coming.

The gaming industries days are numbered and they will need to be made accountable when future impossed standards are not met.
It's not just Egosoft but pretty much the whole industry that thinks it's acceptable to release games prematurely onto the public.

The worse part is we the consumers have come accustomed to this method of delivery.
Back in the mid 1980's to late 1990's when games came in boxes,with maps and the like the quality was higher.Games were pretty much finished and required little patching.

But by 2000 when internet bandwidth increased greed came into play from publishers cutting costs on maps,keyboard layouts and manuals and instead delivered a non physical method of a product. Bingo no more side costs and maximum profit.
Quality went out the door and publishers realized the gamers in an effort to get the latest game and be the first to play would accept unfinished products.

At first the games needed some patching.Then by 2010 games seemed to need larger patches post release.
Gamers still accepted this.
Now in the Past two years and especially 2013 has seen a whole new style of delivering games to the Public.

Early Access and paid Beta's has flurished this year.
So many games in 2013 have been released when they were far from complete.
But the wave of backlash is starting and what happend to the cigarette industry in the past will occur to the game industry.


Again contact your politicians about the whole gaming industry and ask for regulations to be implemented.
The industry is cutting corners more and more in an effort to make more profit.Hence the introduction of limiting content in games and adding launch day DLC

At present they can.There is no legislation in place to protect consumers.

[chikatilo]

BicRazor can you plz hit the enter


key at least three


times every four


words, imho


twice


doesn't cut it.

[BicRazor]

BicRazor can you plz hit the enter


key at least three


times every four


words, imho


twice


doesn't cut it.

Sorry wrote it from my iphone so it didn't appear so bad.
Now on PC so hope you happier now.

[dzhedzho]

I went to my local police station, told them how I couldn't repair this freighter in a space game and how this guy from Germany was responsible. They promised me he'll be behind bars before midnight.

Thanks OP!

I know you try to be amusing, but this is like saying
"I went to the pharmacy and asked for pizza"...
Just saying

(Though I must say OP seems just as enlightened on legal issues)

[Chips]

The original post is, as many have pointed out, going about things the wrong way.

I applaud the mod's restraint. When people were this forceful and so self assured they were right - I just told them to get on with it.

Unsurprisingly nothing ever occurred (I think about 10+ people have threatened me with legal action over various things online over the years. Nothing has ever come of it!).

[Billynomates]

I have had a right giggle at many of the for and against post here, however the sad thing is that our gaming rights are being abused should broken software continue to be sold as this clearly has been by Egosoft. Then as gamers we need to stand together not fight over this uncompleted game!

If we the consumer allow any software companies to get away with what Egosoft have done then we may as well lie down and give up all our rights now.
The other sad thing is the people who don't want a refund and whining at the people who do and most probably have different machines and are clearly not having the same issues as others are. therefor they are screaming traitor and the guys having the issues are trying to get help and through frustration are firing salvos back and forth.

The fact the OP is quoting UK law he is quite within his right to do this, whether it had the desired effect and gets him or anyone else the refund they seek should be irrelevant. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it may not be the same as others but why oh why has this turned into a flame war with each other when the anger is being misplaced.

I've stop coming to the boards daily now as all I am reading is your fault, this is his fault, that's getting very boring indeed and as for the odd person showing distaste of other countrymen voicing their opinions they feel ashamed to be of that same country, I find that rather bizarre personally. I'm just glad I didn't waste my money as I too would of got very frustrated had I paid for it and it failed to work.

It's obvious now that the reason that little feed-back was seen prior to the game going live is that they knew the game was faulty. If they claim as Bernd has that they didn't know it was like that on high end machines, I find very difficult to believe and the whole saga has ethical implication in my opinion. One thing Egosoft have failed to count for and could see in the future is that the people they have let down this time could be their demise in the future.

The right thing to do as a company would of been to address issues in here and refund the people who could prove issues and then that would of saved all these post which this OP and others have written. That would of got them far better credibility and also kept the unhappy gamers on side to and they would of trusted Bernd in the future, now he has lost all their trust and the forums are a laughing stock!

WARNING THIS PARAGRAPH COULD OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, PLEASE DO NOT READ ON IF YOUR ARE EASLY OFFENDED...I have noticed lots of the people who are defending the game are in fact now new moderators. Or were beta testers who got the game for free anyway so they have no reason to worry about a refund and feel loyal even though they know what the problems were.

[Nanook]

...
WARNING THIS PARAGRAPH COULD OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, PLEASE DO NOT READ ON IF YOUR ARE EASLY OFFENDED...I have noticed lots of the people who are defending the game are in fact now new moderators. Or were beta testers who got the game for free anyway so they have no reason to worry about a refund and feel loyal even though they know what the problems were.

Care to give examples of your claim so they can properly respond to your slander? Or are you just making an anonymous claim with no basis in reality?

[Philbie]

I have had a right giggle at many of the for and against post here, however the sad thing is that our gaming rights are being abused should broken software continue to be sold as this clearly has been by Egosoft. Then as gamers we need to stand together not fight over this uncompleted game!

If we the consumer allow any software companies to get away with what Egosoft have done then we may as well lie down and give up all our rights now.
The other sad thing is the people who don't want a refund and whining at the people who do and most probably have different machines and are clearly not having the same issues as others are. therefor they are screaming traitor and the guys having the issues are trying to get help and through frustration are firing salvos back and forth.

The fact the OP is quoting UK law he is quite within his right to do this, whether it had the desired effect and gets him or anyone else the refund they seek should be irrelevant. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it may not be the same as others but why oh why has this turned into a flame war with each other when the anger is being misplaced.

I've stop coming to the boards daily now as all I am reading is your fault, this is his fault, that's getting very boring indeed and as for the odd person showing distaste of other countrymen voicing their opinions they feel ashamed to be of that same country, I find that rather bizarre personally. I'm just glad I didn't waste my money as I too would of got very frustrated had I paid for it and it failed to work.

It's obvious now that the reason that little feed-back was seen prior to the game going live is that they knew the game was faulty. If they claim as Bernd has that they didn't know it was like that on high end machines, I find very difficult to believe and the whole saga has ethical implication in my opinion. One thing Egosoft have failed to count for and could see in the future is that the people they have let down this time could be their demise in the future.

The right thing to do as a company would of been to address issues in here and refund the people who could prove issues and then that would of saved all these post which this OP and others have written. That would of got them far better credibility and also kept the unhappy gamers on side to and they would of trusted Bernd in the future, now he has lost all their trust and the forums are a laughing stock!

WARNING THIS PARAGRAPH COULD OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, PLEASE DO NOT READ ON IF YOUR ARE EASLY OFFENDED...I have noticed lots of the people who are defending the game are in fact now new moderators. Or were beta testers who got the game for free anyway so they have no reason to worry about a refund and feel loyal even though they know what the problems were.

I agree for the most part, but that last paragraph was unnecessary.

I think Egosoft has revealed their true colours in how they handled the release of X-Rebirth. The longer and longer this refund issue drags out the more and more I feel they don’t care about good will business ethics.

[Shenzo]

I looked in to that for a broken Oblivion disk back in 2006.

Trading Standards will not do anything for a disk issue... I tried.

Also Steam is not UK based, I believe its in Seatle USA which the wiki says is in the US state of Washington. Not to be confused with the city of that name. Yes I know, sounds a little odd. But anyway....That means the laws you need to look up are for Washington State.

I think this may be of help.... Googled it.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=1792#.UqELgeL9_Kc

EU branch of steam is based in Luxemburg, please read the quote from steam EULA, and let this die..

This I find funny. Egosoft being such a "small company" yet they have branches in different Country's.

Office in Germany, UK, US and where else? and they only have 20 employees? There offices janitor closets or something? Hard to figure out what's the truth on the trusty old internet lol

Any way back to topic.. I am glad to see that it's not just the United States that's Sue happy/entitled these days. So much rage over $50 on this forum, it costs way more than that to take the family out for a meal.

Not to mention if anyone gets the guts to actually attempt legal action. If you have the money for the lawyers, that $50 you spent on the game is nothing. huge waste of time lol

[WeriTis]

This I find funny. Egosoft being such a "small company" yet they have branches in different Country's.

Office in Germany, UK, US and where else? and they only have 20 employees? There offices janitor closets or something? Hard to figure out what's the truth on the trusty old internet lol

Any way back to topic.. I am glad to see that it's not just the United States that's Sue happy/entitled these days. So much rage over $50 on this forum, it costs way more than that to take the family out for a meal.

Not to mention if anyone gets the guts to actually attempt legal action. If you have the money for the lawyers, that $50 you spent on the game is nothing. huge waste of time lol

I think you may have confused Steam/Valve with Egosoft. Also, pc games are cheaper in the US.

And if you do not care about having or not having 50$, i'll be happy to provide you with my paypal account where you can offload all that excess money of yours

[lancing99]

Most industries have a set of standards.
Unfortunately the digital gaming industry doesn't.
So until everyone presses their politicians to act no change will be forth coming.

The gaming industries days are numbered and they will need to be made accountable when future impossed standards are not met.
It's not just Egosoft but pretty much the whole industry that thinks it's acceptable to release games prematurely onto the public.

The worse part is we the consumers have come accustomed to this method of delivery.
Back in the mid 1980's to late 1990's when games came in boxes,with maps and the like the quality was higher.Games were pretty much finished and required little patching.

But by 2000 when internet bandwidth increased greed came into play from publishers cutting costs on maps,keyboard layouts and manuals and instead delivered a non physical method of a product. Bingo no more side costs and maximum profit.
Quality went out the door and publishers realized the gamers in an effort to get the latest game and be the first to play would accept unfinished products.

At first the games needed some patching.Then by 2010 games seemed to need larger patches post release.
Gamers still accepted this.
Now in the Past two years and especially 2013 has seen a whole new style of delivering games to the Public.

Early Access and paid Beta's has flurished this year.
So many games in 2013 have been released when they were far from complete.
But the wave of backlash is starting and what happend to the cigarette industry in the past will occur to the game industry.


Again contact your politicians about the whole gaming industry and ask for regulations to be implemented.
The industry is cutting corners more and more in an effort to make more profit.Hence the introduction of limiting content in games and adding launch day DLC

At present they can.There is no legislation in place to protect consumers.

Its happening, just slowly. As the problem gets worse with more companies doing what Egosoft just did more people are complaining and its getting noticed.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/04/30/sega- ... s-lawsuit/

[Shenzo]

This I find funny. Egosoft being such a "small company" yet they have branches in different Country's.

Office in Germany, UK, US and where else? and they only have 20 employees? There offices janitor closets or something? Hard to figure out what's the truth on the trusty old internet lol

Any way back to topic.. I am glad to see that it's not just the United States that's Sue happy/entitled these days. So much rage over $50 on this forum, it costs way more than that to take the family out for a meal.

Not to mention if anyone gets the guts to actually attempt legal action. If you have the money for the lawyers, that $50 you spent on the game is nothing. huge waste of time lol

I think you may have confused Steam/Valve with Egosoft. Also, pc games are cheaper in the US.

And if you do not care about having or not having 50$, i'll be happy to provide you with my paypal account where you can offload all that excess money of yours

Ya got me! .. See so much negativity I have read. Ego soft and Steam are now the same company to me when I read these complaint threads.

It's not that $50 is nothing to me.. It's just not worth the time and energy lost raging on a forum when there are so many other things to do. I have never seen nerd rage reach such an epic level before until release day of this game. I was there opening day when WOW came out and it took like 15 minutes to loot a corpse, 30 minute que after crashing out of the game, people were more civil then on these forums.

This community used to be so helpful and positive, very sad what has happened over this last month to morale. Sure it was a let down on some levels due to not living up to expectations. Some act as if it's the end of their lives because this game isn't what they wanted it to be.

[Chips]

WARNING THIS PARAGRAPH COULD OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, PLEASE DO NOT READ ON IF YOUR ARE EASLY OFFENDED...I have noticed lots of the people who are defending the game are in fact now new moderators. Or were beta testers who got the game for free anyway so they have no reason to worry about a refund and feel loyal even though they know what the problems were.

Apart from the obvious issue of proving what you've said (there's none) - another question is:

How should you choose your moderators? Lets look at the options:
1) Should you choose someone who threatens legal action?
2) Should you choose someone who attacks others and argues vehemently about how awful the game is?
3) Should you choose someone you've no knowledge about as they're recent posters?

Or should you:
4) Choose someone who's shown restraint in their post behaviour?
5) Choose someone who's shown the ability to help others?
6) Choose someone who's done both of the above for years without having to be warned about bad posting behaviour.
7) Shown the ability not to be interested in stifling discussion and indeed allows discussions to continue when most (on either side of the fence) would have locked it and banned their ass.
8.) Someone who doesn't attack the poster, but will show the flaws in their claims (on either side).

As per usual, I think there's one significant factor playing to your perception.

"If you're not with us you must be against us".

The idea that if someone doesn't agree with your claims, then they must be on the other side.

Things aren't so "black and white". Those who see like this (yourself, apparently, included) should not become a moderator.

I've seen one or two moderators post how badly bugged the game was - but exercise restraint instead of going all para-legal jargon. Don't blame moderators for trying to maintain at least some semblance of use of the forum through addressing random spam, and in doing so it doesn't mean they're "against" you, either.

Nor does the fact that they may ask difficult questions - also known as "proof", or probe into claims which are clearly bluster (such as deleting this thread would be illegal... which was utterly laughable).

Bottom line - if you guys want a refund - get requesting. If you are so sure about your legal rights in the face of not getting a refund, then exercise them.

In other words, stop yabbering on and making hollow threats and just get on with it.

[naisha]

WARNING THIS PARAGRAPH COULD OFFEND SOME PEOPLE, PLEASE DO NOT READ ON IF YOUR ARE EASLY OFFENDED...I have noticed lots of the people who are defending the game are in fact now new moderators. Or were beta testers who got the game for free anyway so they have no reason to worry about a refund and feel loyal even though they know what the problems were.

Apart from the obvious issue of proving what you've said (there's none) - another question is:

How should you choose your moderators? Lets look at the options:
1) Should you choose someone who threatens legal action?
2) Should you choose someone who attacks others and argues vehemently about how awful the game is?
3) Should you choose someone you've no knowledge about as they're recent posters?

Or should you:
4) Choose someone who's shown restraint in their post behaviour?
5) Choose someone who's shown the ability to help others?
6) Choose someone who's done both of the above for years without having to be warned about bad posting behaviour.
7) Shown the ability not to be interested in stifling discussion and indeed allows discussions to continue when most (on either side of the fence) would have locked it and banned their ass.
8.) Someone who doesn't attack the poster, but will show the flaws in their claims (on either side).

As per usual, I think there's one significant factor playing to your perception.

"If you're not with us you must be against us".

The idea that if someone doesn't agree with your claims, then they must be on the other side.

Things aren't so "black and white". Those who see like this (yourself, apparently, included) should not become a moderator.

I've seen one or two moderators post how badly bugged the game was - but exercise restraint instead of going all para-legal jargon. Don't blame moderators for trying to maintain at least some semblance of use of the forum through addressing random spam, and in doing so it doesn't mean they're "against" you, either.

Nor does the fact that they may ask difficult questions - also known as "proof", or probe into claims which are clearly bluster (such as deleting this thread would be illegal... which was utterly laughable).

Bottom line - if you guys want a refund - get requesting. If you are so sure about your legal rights in the face of not getting a refund, then exercise them.

In other words, stop yabbering on and making hollow threats and just get on with it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

+1

Altho im pretty sure what you've said will fall on deaf ears.

[B_O_L_T]

I looked in to that for a broken Oblivion disk back in 2006.

Trading Standards will not do anything for a disk issue... I tried.

Also Steam is not UK based, I believe its in Seatle USA which the wiki says is in the US state of Washington. Not to be confused with the city of that name. Yes I know, sounds a little odd. But anyway....That means the laws you need to look up are for Washington State.

I think this may be of help.... Googled it.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=1792#.UqELgeL9_Kc

EU branch of steam is based in Luxemburg, please read the quote from steam EULA, and let this die..

This I find funny. Egosoft being such a "small company" yet they have branches in different Country's.

Office in Germany, UK, US and where else? and they only have 20 employees? There offices janitor closets or something? Hard to figure out what's the truth on the trusty old internet lol

Any way back to topic.. I am glad to see that it's not just the United States that's Sue happy/entitled these days. So much rage over $50 on this forum, it costs way more than that to take the family out for a meal.

Not to mention if anyone gets the guts to actually attempt legal action. If you have the money for the lawyers, that $50 you spent on the game is nothing. huge waste of time lol

Under international trade agreements a company has to abide by the consumer rights of participating countries, and face any charges brought against them within that country. This responsibility ultimately falls on the developers regardless of 3rd party vendors; as far as the law is concerned Vendors are simply acting as agents for the sale of goods. Microsoft tried for years to have their EU cases heard in the US but ultimately failed, and in due course were fined Millions by the EU courts, more than once.

Further, Under the UK system you include all costs of brining a suit as part of the damages you seek, if you win, you pay nothing, its the litigant that foots the bill for the entire thing.

[Shenzo]

I looked in to that for a broken Oblivion disk back in 2006.

Trading Standards will not do anything for a disk issue... I tried.

Also Steam is not UK based, I believe its in Seatle USA which the wiki says is in the US state of Washington. Not to be confused with the city of that name. Yes I know, sounds a little odd. But anyway....That means the laws you need to look up are for Washington State.

I think this may be of help.... Googled it.
http://www.atg.wa.gov/page.aspx?id=1792#.UqELgeL9_Kc

EU branch of steam is based in Luxemburg, please read the quote from steam EULA, and let this die..

This I find funny. Egosoft being such a "small company" yet they have branches in different Country's.

Office in Germany, UK, US and where else? and they only have 20 employees? There offices janitor closets or something? Hard to figure out what's the truth on the trusty old internet lol

Any way back to topic.. I am glad to see that it's not just the United States that's Sue happy/entitled these days. So much rage over $50 on this forum, it costs way more than that to take the family out for a meal.

Not to mention if anyone gets the guts to actually attempt legal action. If you have the money for the lawyers, that $50 you spent on the game is nothing. huge waste of time lol

Under international trade agreements a company has to abide by the consumer rights of participating countries, and face any charges brought against them within that country. This responsibility ultimately falls on the developers regardless of 3rd party vendors; as far as the law is concerned Vendors are simply acting as agents for the sale of goods. Microsoft tried for years to have their EU cases heard in the US but ultimately failed, and in due course were fined Millions by the EU courts, more than once.

Further, Under the UK system you include all costs of brining a suit as part of the damages you seek, if you win, you pay nothing, its the litigant that foots the bill for the entire thing.

Wow that's a nice setup. Here in the states the little guy gets the short end of the stick win or lose lol