Add Ship Boarding Combat Poll

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Should A Future X Game Allow Boarding Party Tactical/FPS Combat

Hell ya, that's an awesome idea, w00t!
64
67%
My aim sucks and I set everything on auto-turret, I'd get slaughtered in FPS combat
0
No votes
No boarding party is worth the loss of a split life!
32
33%
 
Total votes: 96

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ArgonTrustedLoony
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Post by ArgonTrustedLoony » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:06

blackflame wrote: Comments, anyone - Im not asking for anything that doesnt already exist - just link it all together!
It may well have all been done before, but never together and mostly for reasons that have already been mentioned, I seriously doubt that any current home computer is capable of handling all of these aspects in one go.

As has been implied already, a space sim graphics engine is no good for FPS games and vice versa.

I agree it would be a really cool game but something will always suffer in this sort of compromise.
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Post by blackflame » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:18

Im not asking for it all together - just linked.

I dont know how many people here have played games via the Microsoft Game Zone (its not swearing here is it, mentioning Bill?), but I always liked the way of arranging games.

Talk to each other, get in one room, launch, beat each other up for a while, then go back and start again. Made tournament easy.

So something like - but inside the game, and the bit that launches is chosen by the type of mission. Half a dozen (10, 50 - more the merrier) people accept an in-game task, go off, win or lose, come back, and the universe updates on the result.

So no compromise engine - a space sim one, if its a space task, fps etc - potentially even a strategic one if someone gets hired to command an assault too large for a real time sim. Effectively a separate game for each style...

Ok, I know Im asking for a lot - but all the elements do exist - its just the permenant universe in the background giving it all meaning that I'd like to see added.

I have played campagin style games in XWing vs Tie Fighter and Mechwarrior - but they relied on manual reporting, manual updating and eventually the poor soul who started it gets swamped by the scale and cracks. I'd love to see it automated.

Keep picking on me - I might come up with more over the top ideas yet :)
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ArgonTrustedLoony
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Post by ArgonTrustedLoony » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:22

I think you've got a good idea there, but it would take a lot of companies pulling together to make it happen. Maybe some day.
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Momaw
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Post by Momaw » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:24

Boarding missions would be neat. I'd be happy if it was just a text/menu interface though.

Get your target to 50% hull and shields down, deploy a troop ship (Command->Special->Insert Marines, select target). The ship lands, offloads the marines, and launches again. Capture chance depends on 1) the type of ship that you're trying to capture (TL's are easier than M1's, and M1's are easier than M2's, logic: M2's are basically huge boxes, largely staffed with techs and launch crew) and 2) the number of boarding parties that managed to dock, the skill level of the marines and how well equipped they are.

You'd hire them from a new installation, Marine Academy. Each "Marine Boarding Party" would take up 600XL cargo units. Rookie marines cost only ~50K credits, elite veterans cost around 2 million. Once you've hired the marines, you may buy additional weapons for them that can slightly increase their chances, such as "Fragmenting ammo" for an extra 15K credits, or "Antipersonnel grenades" for 145K.

Different types of marines have different levels of performance:
- Boron marines have the poorest capture chance per team, but have a possibility of supressing the ship's weaponry and defenses (meaning you can more easily get more troops landed)
- Teladi marines have a better capture chance than Boron, and loot the ship as they move, meaning you get a bit of cash even if the ship is not captured.
- Argon marines have a good chance of capture, but do a fair bit of damage to the ship as they're trying to take over
- Split marines have very good chances of victory, assuming they don't blow up the ship first: they're very destructive; count on losing a lot of hull and equipment if you hire Split marines
- Paranid marines... I dunno. Hm.

Once the ship carrying the party has docked to the capture target, the party is removed from the ship's cargo hold. The logic is that you only hired them for a single mission, and they went home (assuming they weren't all killed).
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JackScratch
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Post by JackScratch » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:37

Oh it's completely doable on today's computers, it's just that no one has truly done it yet. To use a less than perfect example, Earth and Beyond had both ships and interior locations, and the People looked very good too. But they didn't go the full distance and add interior combat.

And really you just need to look as recently as Freelancer to see that the engine did a great job with both People and Starships. They just missed going the extra mile and make the people sections truly interactive.

My dream game will definately be a true combination of the two. Giving your character skills that affect both being in a ship (piloting, gunnery) and off one (Trading, Marksmanship, etc.)

Having said all that, I wouldn't encourage this in X because their handling of people was truly bad to the point of damaging the rest of the experience. :)

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Post by Subjugation » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 18:40

It would take a lotta modifying to get X2's engine to do FPS sequences. I'd much prefer they spent their time on the expansion.

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Post by grandgnu » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 19:32

Another cool aspect could be that you know your ship or station is losing to the boarding party and will fall into enemy hands soon.

They haven't been able to activate the self-destruction sequence, so you use your fleet ships to blow the resource and jump out of the losing battle in the system, denying your enemy additional resources (scorched earth campaign). Plus you might take some of their elite troops with the destruction.

And no, I don't expect them to add this to X2, but perhaps a future X game it would be cool.

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Post by Redjack » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 19:55

sq_paradox wrote:Appartently you have not seen any games that try to mix genres in that way ie Universal Combat, Operation Flashpoint. When developers are forced to put to game engines into one both engines suffer. and don't give me the whole it could be one engine thing, it doesn't work.
I don't know what your definition of engine is, but Operation Flashpoint did a great job at merging infantry, tank, and chopper combat all into one game engine.

Edit: The difference between the idea presented in the thread and OFP is that OFP was designed from the ground up to contain all aspects of combat.

While it would be really cool to be able to board ships or walk around your own ship, I don't think it's a good idea to add something this extensive to the game as an afterthought. All you'll get is a horrible mess.

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Post by Golden_Gonads » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 20:52

A game that did something similar to this, was Pirates of the Caribbean (A.K.A. Sea Dogs II) OK, it was a lousy game, but you could grapple onto enemy ships & board them. Then kill the captain, and the ship was yours - IF you had an officer to assign to it...

A different way to do it, is the way its done in Pirates! Gold! Just you vs. the enemy captain with your 'strength' 'Endurance' and 'HitPoints' worked out by the strength of your crew compared to that of the other vessel...


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Post by beefsteaks » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 22:20

I don't see any reason the whole X2 Universe couldn't be built on an FPS engine?

All X2 is, is an FPS game in space. Instead of trees and buildings you have stations and planets, instead of tanks and jeeps and infantry you have space ships.

Theres no reason you couldnt do X2 in an engine like the Unreal engine lets say.

Also it wouldn't get boring because you dont HAVE to do the infantry missions and the insertion missions.


I remember playing Star Trek Comman (i think that was the name of it). I loved buyilding up my huge empire and sending spies and emisarries and soldiers into planet misisons, and I always wondered how cool it would have been if I could take over command of one of those misisons.

Instead of sending Skywalker on a spying mission, better to take him there myself, Jedi Academy style :D

When I'm done, maybe I will go back and do some tradiong or send my fleets against another planet or whatever. Imagine the endless gameplay :D

As for becoming a space strategy game insterad of a trading game, it wouldnt have to if the economy was done well.


If there were clever ways to make quick money, and 'special' trade opportunities and routes to be found, trading would always have its value.

In Elite trading was much better because it was very dynamic, you could always find new ways to make a quick buck. Planets having war needed firearms, and then after they needed medical supplies.....even moreso when you pirated their supplies ;)


Everyone is right that it would take some devs working together and would have its teething troubles to set up, but hell it would be worth it.

Even something like the SOF II random mission generator would be cool, that could randomly seed a whole level in a few seconds. No huge load times with that either :)

Anyway, it would be great if it ever happened I bet. Something for everyone and plenty variety to chop and change depoending on how you feel like playing.

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JackScratch
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Post by JackScratch » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 22:23

A different way to do it, is the way its done in Pirates! Gold! Just you vs. the enemy captain with your 'strength' 'Endurance' and 'HitPoints' worked out by the strength of your crew compared to that of the other vessel...

Which reminds me...Sid Meyer is finally doing an updated full 3D version of Pirates. Looks pretty nifty from what I've seen. Not only are they upgrading the boarding system, but are doing a variation of those Captain vs. Captain battles where you can woo the governor's daughter through dance. Should be a complete riot.

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Post by Redjack » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 22:36

beefsteaks wrote: Theres no reason you couldnt do X2 in an engine like the Unreal engine lets say.
It would certainly be possible, but you would have to rip out a lot of the gameplay code and write new code to have it work anything at all like a flgiht sim. X2 may have simplistic flying and combat, but codewise, I'm sure it's not much like an FPS. (This is from experience, working with the Quake engine code.)

That's the problem with implementing this idea. Whether you start with the X2 engine or an FPS engine, you'd have to write whole new gameplay code for the section the engine is missing.

You would probably be better off writing the game from the ground up with FPS and flight in mind. The end result would be a lot less messy.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a lot of the stuff mentioned in this thread. It's just not that feasible.

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Post by Constipated_Vigilante » Fri, 2. Apr 04, 22:38

I would love that. I'm both a huge space sim and FPS fan. Before I found Freespace 1, I was playing a ton of Quake II, Duke Nukem, etc. I think we should be able to have commando parties for boarding, or, if you want, have the comp calculate outcome based on exp of your soldiers, weapons, scenario, etc. Another aspect I would like to see in the future is doing combined air/ground assaults on planets. For example, you could go in with your Colossus and a fleet of Novas inside over a large battle for an installation with troops on the ground. Then, you could either pilot a Nova, or beam yourself to the ground, or even beam yourself to a destroyer in orbit of the planet that's blasting away with its lasers and missiles. THAT would be cool. I might be the only one here who actually plays Savage, but I love it. It combines FPS and RTS into one game. I agree the RTS isn't quite as good as the FPS not because of the combination of engines, but because the commander (RTS) doesn't have total control, unlike most RTS's.
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Post by grandgnu » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 05:20

Why would it be SO difficult and/or impossible for X2 to incorporate flight and FPS? Look at Battlefield 1942 or its' Desert Combat mod.

You can be a soldier on the ground, you can hop into ground vehicles, command boats or fly in a jet or chopper. There's flight, sea and ground combat, what would be the problem?

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Post by Redjack » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 06:33

The problem is that BF1942 was designed from the ground up to support all of those things. They were all part of the design from the beginning, and the game was built around the concept of being able to fly, drive, and shoot everything. Because of that, everything fit together perfectly. It wasn't bolted on as an afterthought like an FPS element in X2 would be.

Just imagine how much code would have to be written and rewritten to add in FPS sequences at this stage of X2's development. You'd need to code the FPS element from scratch. Enemy AI, weapon functionality, movement code. Not to mention all the modifications you'd have to make to existing code to get it all to fit together.

Don't forget about all the graphical content that would need to be created. You'd need to model and animate crewmen from each race, each ship's interior, weapons.

It's a nightmare from a logistical standpoint.

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Post by B2-The Player » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 06:45

If there is an X-pansion i hope you can find bret in some remote galaxy

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Post by khanis » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 06:58

I think they should do two things:
1. Make M1's and M2's much more resistant to fightercraft fire and increase capital ship weaponry.
2. Introduce the M7 Frigate class ship. Between the size of an M2 and an M6, with each race having its own special mix of weapons. In other words, Argon could have lots of turrets covering every angle, but not great guns. Paranid could have very powerful weapons, but very few, with only the large ones capable of fitting to a front position(capital ship killers). Teladi could have a frigate capable of firing a new missile that is much more powerful than a Hornet.

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Post by maestro4202 » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 07:08

Isnt going in you spacesuit considered FPS? Cough! Ya u know it is... anyways.. invovling ground combat and inside ship combat is an argument that predates X2 itself. I'm not trying to say your dumb for bringing it up again, its a great idea..just saying the general consensus seems to be youre trying to do a thing that is done better with 2 separate games instead of one. But hey, busting into a first person mode to explore a planet surface might be a revolutionary thing..its just that any respectable publisher is terrified of the idea..it just doesnt look good in there sales projection models. I know it sux but Egosoft has still taken gaming to a new level with X2 if ya ask me. :wink:

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Post by grandgnu » Sat, 3. Apr 04, 11:57

I'm not saying to add this feature to X2, I'm saying to add it to a future X game so it does wind up being figured into the code in the beginning.

And since it can be done (i.e. BF 1942) I don't see how it would be as large of a problem as some are making it out to be.

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Post by Sleeper Service » Sun, 4. Apr 04, 17:18

The thing which really bugs me about this whole scheme is that, yes it would be cool. But to do this you would need to turn X into a RTS, simply to have resources enough to have large fleet combat.

The closest thing ive got to fleet combat in X2 is my Titan to plough through wave after wave of ks while my idiot escort crusiers fly in a rediculusly futile attack pattern doing diddly squat to the enemy crusiers an visa versa.

Can you imagen losing your pride and joy which cost you upwards of 60mill to a boarding party. The only way i can see this making the game really better is if the player gets a shipyard and a relible source of waeponary.

Good idea, just mildy unsutible at present.

As for FPSing missions, after a while you would get used to ship layout, then you'ed get bored of going into enemy ships, then you'ed get your marines to go in on their own, then your marines that cost you loads would die very quickly in a sort of buggered OOS combat. Then you'ed scream at the computer for its comleat lack of sanity and storm off to find a cliff somewhere.

Its happend to my freighters.
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