X-Tutorial

[Aragosnat]

Jests about plot and game name aside. And this goes out to the community(nice if devs looked).

If there was a seperate tutorial function available before we start a new game and that updates as we find new ship / game function with basic game before we start our very first game.

Reason coming from a DiD game perspective of having it is:

-To reply how use each function. RL and in game dirstractions have made me miss hearing / reading what was being said. That and well all forget unless we use it a lot.

-Being able to keep trying the new fucntion without worrying about cost and limited wares. As well as try a differant load out to see which one matches with how I want to play that time around. As well as setting up my short cuts in safety. (Yes. I have run into stations and other ships and getting killed by a random passerby while setting up).

-No worring if I failed to save before, a or accidently saved over the game that.

-Possably an area for Modders to test out their mods without fear of corrupting their saved games and core game files.

Tutorial Examples that could be available before even starting the main game:

-Basic fly control on ship controls and drone using starting ship

Reason: To get the basic feel without need to see the into for the X time and seeing that evil flight school instructor as well. (Yes those ships and stations will be jumping right at me.)

-Basic Ship and Drone Combat using starting ship

Reason: Since in the interview Benrd said our drones will be hard to come by and chances are it will take a while to get a full load of one type and keep it. And to give us an idea on some tactics we can try out.

-Basic Enconomy instructions on how to trade that is availble before starting a new game.
Reason: Even a decent text explanation cannot get people to what is needed. And a visual hold the players hand can go a long way.

-Ship(s) Paintshop with the ability to repaint the skunk to start with.
Reason: Personal amusement (paint ship black with two white stripes runing along top with three slim short white stripes along the left side of the ships nose and another three slim short white stripes along right side of the nose Edit: and with green engine glow) and as we gain new ship chassis. Testing what color scheams we want on them while not worrying about out mighty empire.

Advance Tutorials Examples that can become unlocked with the plot:

-Ship Design / Creaation
Reason: Simple. So one does not have to worry about their empire crashing around their ears while designing.

-Station Complex use / Construction and to test any defense on said complex.
. Reason: While the station manager might be able to explain the ware manage ment part. Being able to see a in progress or completed look of (completed as far as available funds / ware needs go) complex one is planning on building. (Would be nice if functioned like the complex calculators most of us players use.)

Would you use such feature? Yes, I also realize it would add to development time if they don't have such and I did not mention all the known game functions. Oh yeah. Mods feel free to merg it with what ever thread this needs to be in if any or even lock it so it can die quietly. (hides)

[Max1045]

Actually, I think that's a really cool idea. I'm not sure quite how you mean what you said, but as far I read, you want there to be a series of tutorials to cover the various aspects.

I think a better version would be a "sandbox" area, with tutorials in the forms of ships floating in the same constant space, and with stations that produce products for free. Or maybe there could be some basic settings that changed it slightly, such as products costing money, ships returning fire, etc. I think the sandbox would make it an excellent test ground for modders, or just for some nonsensical chaos.

TL;DR: Really cool idea, I think a sandbox would work better

[ThommoHawk]

Both X2 The Theat and X3 Reunion have seperate, discreet 'training simulations', which are not part of the game (have to be launched outside of the game itself). As a total newby to both games when they came out, I enjoyed these little 'sims'. It helped me to form a good opinion of the game, and added a touch of class too imo.... I'd do the same when Rebirth comes out, and would be happy for such a tutorial/tutorials be included in the game when it is released, ..

..Edited out some comments not applicable to OP (were due to my mis-reading error)...

[brucewarren]

Nice idea.

In terms of advanced tutorials, I'd like to see ones for various s/w upgrades when you get them (I'm looking at you CAG and CLS) and how to do combat with a wing once you've put some ships in one. (Assuming such features still exist in rebirth of course)

[BigMistake]

I think the "VR Training" option outside of the main game/saves would be a good addition for flight, drones and weapons training. Especially for these specialized drones like the shield drone and espionage drones.

However, I think for things like Economy or "How to Recruit crew members" might be better off in text or a short video form. Kept in the same area as the sims of course.

The best part of these sorts of things is: they are completely optional. Those of us who wish to figure things out as we go, can still do so. (Sorry, that's should read: "Attempt to figure it out, get frustrated and head to the forums for help.")

I would imagine something like this wouldn't be terribly hard to add later (as I really don't want to delay things any longer) but then again I don't know anything about programing on a large scale.

[amtie]

Maybe use a clean save/new game, hack in a ton of cash/items like how the cheat script works with X3, and do these sandboxy things. However, something I miss in TC/AP is the legit ship tryout 'start' that was an empty universe with messages that would be sent to you that spawned whatever ship you desired to test out in flight or combat.

[BigMistake]

To continue on my line of thought, I was thinking about a tutorial/training system similar to Metal Gear Solid 4. Think, the training vids for the "boring" non-combat stuff and a "flight simulator" for testing-out/learning-how drones and weapons work.

[Aragosnat]

Thank you all that responded so far. Decided to play my DiD game while in hiding. And sorry if what I was writing was hard to follow. It is something I know I need to work on dispite English being my main and only form of communication...

The only reason for lack of complete sandbox is the lack of a controlled environment not saying it should not be complete either. I know we the players can make such a thing happen. But, not everyone has the time to find and try and set-up certain situations like ship capping 101.

The vid idea should work for the economic and some non-combat parts. But, sometimes it is nice having your hands held and working on a rail system.

Also agree it should not be to hard to add in as we know they are testing how this screen shot of the week for capital ship combat could easily be used as a tutorial for sub-system combat as well as ordering a ship.
http://www.egosoft.com/games/x_rebirth/ ... en_034.jpg

Also if any part needs to be made clearer as I was trying to avoid a wall of text in my first post. I'll try my best to in a non-dyslexia way possable.

[Oldman]

...Ship(s) Paintshop with the ability to repaint the skunk to start with.
Reason: Personal amusement (paint ship black with two white stripes runing along top with three slim short white stripes along the left side of the ships nose and another three slim short white stripes along right side of the nose) and as we gain new ship chassis. Testing what color scheams we want on them while not worrying about out mighty empire...

I like this one!
It's been mentioned here and there for quite some time now, but I'd love to see the return of design and import personal 'logo's' to your ship and stations.
I suppose you could use this Paintshop to integrate this as well perhaps?

I'm all for a separate tutorial on the game disk, but I'm also a 'dinosaur' when it comes to game manuals and other game paraphernalia, I also like hard copies as well.
No, I don't really think hard copy manuals will be available btw. I think these are a thing of the past now unfortunately
Would even settle for a printable version as downloaded or on disk content though, where you could choose parts of a tutorial, basic control or even star maps & stuff to print off.

I suppose it's a catch 22 question for tutorials, how much of the game can you reveal without giving too much information away of the game itself. Some of the excitement and mystery is in finding out stuff for yourself, but the basics of the game should be easy to learn of course.
I'm hoping (hands clasped in prayer ) that the new game will have so much good content you'll HAVE to have a few tutorials on the disk!

Oldman

[Aragosnat]

...Ship(s) Paintshop with the ability to repaint the skunk to start with.
Reason: Personal amusement (paint ship black with two white stripes runing along top with three slim short white stripes along the left side of the ships nose and another three slim short white stripes along right side of the nose) and as we gain new ship chassis. Testing what color scheams we want on them while not worrying about out mighty empire...

I like this one!
It's been mentioned here and there for quite some time now, but I'd love to see the return of design and import personal 'logo's' to your ship and stations.
I suppose you could use this Paintshop to integrate this as well perhaps?

I'm all for a separate tutorial on the game disk, but I'm also a 'dinosaur' when it comes to game manuals and other game paraphernalia, I also like hard copies as well.
No, I don't really think hard copy manuals will be available btw. I think these are a thing of the past now unfortunately
Would even settle for a printable version as downloaded or on disk content though, where you could choose parts of a tutorial, basic control or even star maps & stuff to print off.

I suppose it's a catch 22 question for tutorials, how much of the game can you reveal without giving too much information away of the game itself. Some of the excitement and mystery is in finding out stuff for yourself, but the basics of the game should be easy to learn of course.
I'm hoping (hands clasped in prayer ) that the new game will have so much good content you'll HAVE to have a few tutorials on the disk!

Oldman

Thanks and sounds like a great idea too.

I'm a bit of a dino to the gaming industry as well and can see the problem with tutorials giving away to much to soon. Then again. If people looked at this forum. I don't think it would make to much differnce. As long as a tutorial is locked and not shown in the tutorial area till you reach the part of the plot where it is learned. It then might not be a big problem.

[Ketraar]

I'm absolutely against tutorials in the classic sense of it, usually found in separate environment and rules set of the game. Having said that now on to explaining.

I too am a dino, and not just in terms of gaming. I run through most phases of gaming, from having to make your game in order to play (commodore 64), where most time is spent trying to load and have the thing work than actually play it. Tutorials were nowhere to be seen. Then to an area where most games had a tutorial section AND came with odd things printed on paper, called handbooks or game manual, with all sorts of instruction on how to play the game. Rarely it was the case that I did not speed by both just to go straight into the game without much delay, other than maybe adjust some things in the options menu. The manual I used to read a bit, mostly due to the enormous amount of time spent installing or loading the game.

True sometimes it happened that I missed some function, maybe even got stuck because of it, but it never was a factor for frustration. Grab the handbook and lookup if I missed something and then move on once figured out. For me having to "learn" the game was always thought as part of the experience, but I do like puzzles and stuff. Anyone remembering Myst, where you literally are dropped into the game with absolutely ZERO clue or indications of what the heck you need to do. So after that, all games are kinda "easy" to get in to.

This does not mean that games should not introduce you to the mechanics and functions properly and preferably when you need them. The best way is to do it seamlessly integrated into the game. On of the best examples is Portal, most Strategy games do that too (even if they have classic tutorials). You get units or mechanics, piece by piece, so that you dont choke on it. Most of these games are very simple in structure and rather linear in play, so the devs have absolute control of the games pace and can "feed" you the things when needed. Problem in X is that there are so many ways you CAN play the game not even the devs are aware of all the possibilities. This complicates things extremely and is not a task easy done.

Any tutorial will only tell you which buttons to press to go from A to B, open a Box, reload etc., they will NOT tell you how to think and how to play the game. If a game tells you how to play it fails imo, all the game should tell you is how you can interact with it. And any good manual will do that, but its you that should do the learning and exploring, specially in X. The long flights are a good way to read up on guides and manuals in addition to the info you get when doing the plots, even though its not going to explain how the universe really tiks, that is a long term task for you, if you are willing.

X in general is not for the gamer that goes for a quick run, unlike say Portal, where you load up the game and do 1-2 maps and get out (even though they are quite addictive), in X you go in and just to catch up on your last play session, depending on how many notes you make or time passed between sessions, it will take up quite some time. So yes a good way to make X more enjoyable for those with less endurance and patience is to limit their options in the early game and open the universe as you go, that was true in older X based mostly on lack of money on reputation, but now with money not being an issue quite soon, is actually something that will frustrate players in the long run, even if you think that getting faster into action is a good thing.

MFG

Ketraar

[Aragosnat]

First of off. Thank you for the good counter argument which does bring some good points against as well as for. At least to my point of view.

This does not mean that games should not introduce you to the mechanics and functions properly and preferably when you need them. The best way is to do it seamlessly integrated into the game. On of the best examples is Portal, most Strategy games do that too (even if they have classic tutorials). You get units or mechanics, piece by piece, so that you dont choke on it. Most of these games are very simple in structure and rather linear in play, so the devs have absolute control of the games pace and can "feed" you the things when needed. Problem in X is that there are so many ways you CAN play the game not even the devs are aware of all the possibilities. This complicates things extremely and is not a task easy done.

Yes. Is X a complex beastie that can choke a horse and us players find niftie ways to play the game that the devs may or may not have thought of. As to why to have a seprate is the same thing. To limit the amount and give a chance for the new information to sink in.

Any tutorial will only tell you which buttons to press to go from A to B, open a Box, reload etc., they will NOT tell you how to think and how to play the game. If a game tells you how to play it fails imo, all the game should tell you is how you can interact with it.

I know it may just be me. But, from my point of view that sounds like what a manual should have mentioned how to do to while waiting for the game to install. For myself a well made tutorial would do not only that. But, then let you figure out how best to apply that knowladge in a somewhat controlled environment which if done right could progressively become more challanging and complex (without it being modded in,; would be nice if the player choose how hard and complex it would become). (Star Wars: Tie Fighter had a tutorial for bombing runs which became harder the longer you lived as well as another mission which did basicly the same thing.) Something like that may or maybe not even be nomally possable within the game's plot and or mechanics (like seeing 70 Q's gunning towards a lone TS, while it is something we can do to an NPC, it is not likely something that would happen to us.)

From a modding point of view. It should be easier to mess around with a tutorial file then the full blown game. (Hopefully the tutorial file would be separate.)

Sidenote: X games can be debatalbe on weither or not it is for those who want a quick run. I do agree in its current state. It can be hard even on those who have a lot of endurance and patience when playing a vanilla game. Just the game mechanics showing their age (and for some our own). Yeah I remember Myst, never played it (sort of certain on that). Heard it was similar in the sense like the 7th Guest, Which I have played.
Edit: My first pc was an Apple II while I never had to create a game for it. Not as old as somene who used a punch card pc.

[thyco]

One tutorial that id really like see thats fleshed out is one for the trading and Station building section of the game.
Something that would give a good but basic explanation of how the economy works and teaches you about supply and demand.

For Example: Step 1. go to X Zone and map it. Step 2. GO to X station and order a SPP. Step 4. go back to zone you mapped out and build the SPP.

Then from there have advanced tutorials that teach you how to set up the SPP and then after that move on Complex building

[Doomforce]

yes.. tutorials.
please for the love of god.

i learn better seeing something.. then .. RTFM.
make a type of video. or a temp HUD where we get shown
how to do stuff.

am playing atm. X3 TC. and i am sooo lost.
its sad, cause i have no tutorials on how to do stuff.

so YES with the tutorials!!

edit ; make 1 tutorial for every thing. or at the very least.
a set of tutorials. so we can get well underway. and have a firm grasp
of the functions , options. abilities and such. before were thrown in the deep end.

[Ketraar]

make 1 tutorial for every thing. or at the very least.
a set of tutorials. so we can get well underway. and have a firm grasp
of the functions , options. abilities and such. before were thrown in the deep end.

You mean make 2 games then?

MFG

Ketraar

[Wraith_Magus]

It isn't really two games. At least, it would take only marginally more effort than one.

You use the exact same engine, disable some of the features, put the player in some completely empty space (except for whatever obstacle course you need players to run through) as a training area, and let them play around with different things.

Disabling features isn't nearly as hard as creating them in the first place, and creating a special area map that's mostly empty isn't terribly time-consuming at all.

[Ketraar]

Its only "not that hard" if its not you doing it. Everything else takes time and effort, aka money. And yes making a tutorial takes the same amount of work as to do, say a plot, chances are it takes more effort, as you need to include all the bits that you need to explain, whereas in a plot you leave those out.

It only LOOKS like its easy.

MFG

Ketraar

[Wraith_Magus]

Its only "not that hard" if its not you doing it. Everything else takes time and effort, aka money. And yes making a tutorial takes the same amount of work as to do, say a plot, chances are it takes more effort, as you need to include all the bits that you need to explain, whereas in a plot you leave those out.

It only LOOKS like its easy.

MFG

Ketraar

Except it IS far easier to add a new sector or add a few more lines of dialogue to a dialogue tree than it is to write a whole new game engine.

Adding a tutorial mode isn't totally effortless, but it takes about as much effort as a moderate-level mod, which is far less than making a whole new game from scratch, which is why mods exist in the first place, rather than everyone just making their own personal games all the time.

I'm only talking about this in relative terms, and call me trivializing the effort of making a tutorial all you want, but I think you're trivializing the amount of effort that goes into a full game in the first place.

Besides which, if this game is going to extraordinary lengths to introduce new players to the game by having a restrictive plot and plot-based equipment and powers where the designer says (paraphrasing) "I expect hardcore players will want to get the plot over with as soon as possible so that they have their freedom," (which implies a crippling of the sandbox notion of this sandbox game that is ill-advised,) then I'd say that Egosoft already sees the value in brining players up to speed in order to make their game appeal to a fresh audience, rather than merely milking their current audience ad infinitum. I'd also be willing to bet taking the time to just give players an empty box to test things in would take less effort than building the whole plot around being a tutorial (and be more useful to the players, besides) and any scripted events and voice acting that requires.

[Ketraar]

Except it IS far easier to add a new sector or add a few more lines of dialogue to a dialogue tree than it is to write a whole new game engine.

Its also easier as going to the moon.

Without engine there is no tutorial at all, so you cant go and compare things out of the blue just to try to make a point. A tutorial is only compared to not having a tutorial, not to making the game. We assume if you have a tutorial, somewhere is a game for it.

No one buys a game for the tutorial, you want the game, a classical tutorial will ALWAYS have to be in addition, so thats more effort, aka money, like I said above. If that means I get whatever feature less in the game for a tutorial, scrap the tutorial.

Hope that clarified things a bit more.

MFG

Ketraar

[Wraith_Magus]

Without engine there is no tutorial at all, so you cant go and compare things out of the blue just to try to make a point.

Except I'm not pulling this out of the blue:

You mean make 2 games then?

MFG

Ketraar

Here, you first compare the effort used to create a tutorial to the effort used to create the whole game.

Its only "not that hard" if its not you doing it. Everything else takes time and effort, aka money. And yes making a tutorial takes the same amount of work as to do, say a plot, chances are it takes more effort, as you need to include all the bits that you need to explain, whereas in a plot you leave those out.

It only LOOKS like its easy.

MFG

Ketraar

Then, here, to the effort used to create the plot.

Hence, when I say, "No, a tutorial takes far less effort to create than a whole game or even just writing a whole plot/content for a game," I am not pulling things out of the blue and I do have a point I am making.

If we want to talk about this as a financial decision, meanwhile, (which wasn't the point you were originally making,) then tutorials can still entirely make financial sense. The X-series is always being introduced as having "a steep learning curve" or having reviewers say "I had fun as soon as I could figure things out". (As a player of Dwarf Fortress, I have to chortle at these wimps, this game didn't seem all THAT hard to learn. The game could just really use a much more easily accessed and informative in-game encyclopedia.) Putting in a nice, soft tutorial mode to coddle the newbies and make the reviewers avoid using ominous terms that might scare players off can be well worth the money spent on new customers gained.