Gamescom 2012 discussion [Leg-warmers and sandels are in fashion!]

[glenmcd]

I truly hope that I"m wrong, but following are my thoughts on the release of Rebirth.

Summary: Rebirth won't happen.

Egosoft is a small team. They're not like any other team either. They have a mixture of EXTREMELY talented devs, but with some really huge gaping holes in the team as a whole. One of their most prominent holes is in regard to the way in which they allow their products to be created and to grow. Specifically, the planning. Some things - such as adding additional fetures - is just fine to consider after release, as they receive ideas and inspiration from just about anywhere.

But other things such as performance considerations, really do need to be planned for and considered at every step of development. The team simply doesn't include someone that can guide the rest with this. In the past they've managed to fill gaping holes in the team, and a perfect example is interface. X2 and even moreso X3 marked the start of products which included a decent player interface. Key bindings that worked, save profile, dictionary etc.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Rebirth came about through Bernd's recognition of where the X series was heading performance wise. It came to a head in what was supposed to be "Pride of Albion", which was based on the existing X3 engine. Bernd wanted certain things in it, and as was always done in the past, features were added to an existing engine with little regard to where the end product would stand performance-wise. Very soon it became apparent to the main coding devs (2x?) that the old engine simply wasn't up to the task. Bernd was forced to look at this issue, and made a decision that a new engine was required. He knew that what he wanted in POB was possible, and if the devs couldn't deliver it with a further evolved X3 engine, that a new engine was required.

That's when the shit really hit the fan. CEOs routinely underestimate the effort and resources required for certain development tasks. But Bernd knew that he had an extremely talented team and reasoned that they could rise to the challenge of writing a new engine, with one of the main features being support of multiple CPU cores / threads. This was to be the "big fix" for performance issues in the X series. But alas this is not the case and never will be. Somewhere along the line, the team had a closer look at the old X3 engine and even the main devs themselves, wondering whether a single threaded app could do better.

The devs were happy to stay with the X3 engine as it meant that they didn't have to learn how to code for multiple threads (a huge task requiring a different way of thinking), plus they got to work with something that they both knew well and that they loved.

In order to demonstrate to Bernd that this was the way to go, they put their efforts into improving performance in what started as the TC at that time. Various small but quasi-important routines such as searching through lists of ships and stations throughout the universe were sped up by a factor of roughly eight (my guess).

But the real core issue was not addressed and as at latest info I've got to go on, continues to be ignored. Coding can be considered as a combining of logic and data structures. Yes that's right, data structures. And that's exactly where X3 got it wrong and exactly what made the first release of AP what is was: a performance nightmare. Patches managed to decrease the worst of the woes but it still meant that no real progress on AP could be made as even the latest AP demonstrates, 30 fps from a monster gaming rig costing US$30K is nothing to be proud of. This figure is experienced in the sectors that show where Bernd wants to take X, and they include all that contain the word "Albion".

Using multiple cores would of course increase performance, but it's a case of *very* quickly diminishing returns, whilst rapidly and permanently increasing pressure on devs to efficiently code for multiple cores takes their focus from what they have always done best: modelling and story. One of the things that keep an expert doing his thing better than anyone else is doing something that he loves. Love of creating multiple threads doesn't come naturally or even easily.

It's only my humble(?!) opinion that what Egosoft really need is an injection of a performance specialist, one that completely understands the importance of data structure choices, knows how to transfer this knowledge to team members, and one that knows how to transform existing products through changing of the major data structures and the many and various routines that access these structures. It's a big task but it's one that takes a limited time, with results that scale exponentially and long term.

Bernd doesn't have such a person and I doubt that he even knows that these people exist. He wouldn't even recognise one right in front of him. As talented a CEO as he is, he is young and can't possibly have the breadth of knowledge and experience that are needed in the perfect CEO.

Meanwhile there's a secret lurking in Egosoft which is most visible in the lack of official comments in threads such as these. It should be of high priority to counter any serious and growing public arguments that a major company promise is about to be broken which cannot help but to alienate a percentage of X fans.

We're now being treated to at least something we asked for, and that's bug fixes in X3 that should have been done years ago. Close the exploits. Make ships dock in the players lifetime when SETA isn't involved. Give them a reason for fighting.

These things take both effort and commitment, and in such a small team it does not come about had the decision to discontinue full-time and team-wide development of Rebirth not been made.

Bernd needs to break the news sometime, and knows that it will go over easier if it's prepared for. Decrease the reasons for players needing Rebirth, by satisfying some of the demands now in X3. It's a compromise as anything that places more pressure on the badly planned X3 engine (with regard to data structure choices) will have to take back seat. The Albion sectors with their large expanse of rocks is something to behold, and I personally would like to see more of it.

[jester6225]

well glen i really can't agree on any of your comments, less than a month a go i think in this very thread cbj stated they were working hard on rebirth, egosoft always go quiet before releases and i do believe at gamescom there will be an influx of information as there was last year.

If there is no news at gamescon then there will be complete up roar here and i would hope answers forth coming, until then patience is required.

[kilerkg]

People have gotten too used to devs revealing everything they do throughout the dev period including handing out beta access whereas egosoft don't choose to do this because they have a loyal fanbase and they are known for delivering top notch games. Just because the team have gone silent doesn't exactly mean that they have gone bump.

The game will come out its just a matter of waiting, hopefully we will see something new at this years gamescon in a few weeks. Everyone needs to just have a little patience.

[mrscribbler]

Glen, the part where you really lost me was when you said, straight out, that Egosoft were good at story.

Back on topic. Unfortunately for us, Rebirth was definitely announced last Gamescon with a video. So unless the collective memory of DS derped, Rebirth is unlikely to be the game that will be announced and playable at this year's Gamescon. Which is a pity, but I do hope it will come out some time before Christmas.

[Dreadmancer]

[BigBANGtheory]

I'm sure we'll see it soon enough, these guys are working hard to get their next title up and running its the life blood of the company. I'll bet we'll see some more trailers at the very least for Gamescon.

[Kapakio]

[glenmcd]

[Star_Raider15]

i think that x rebirth will see the light of day because to me it seems to much like a near-finished product.
you cannot not release something that is nearly finished, i think that at some point the Egosoft dev team will even forgo their salaries just so the game can be released.

[Sibilantae]

Sheer, unbridled, unadulterated speculation. Doesn't invalidate an opinion, of course, but I do disagree, based on track record and... well... would you be saying this if Egosoft weren't being quiet?

[PTR]

[Playbahnosh]

I'm not one for wild speculations, but this Rebirth thing is slowly wearing on me. What follows is just some wild assumptions and theories (because, hell, what else do we have at this point?), so please take it as such. It's NOT intended to be flame bait or a smack on Egosoft, not at all. Just, some theories...

They announced the game ages ago (not like Diablo 3, but still), opened the tap and let the screens, videos and infos flow. Even had a release date for late summer '11, then late fall '11, then early '12 then, then pushed to "sometime in '12" then pushed to "when it's done". For almost a year now. Every morsel of info that breaks through the media block is just a rehash of old news. It seems as though the development of Rebirth has stopped entirely.

What's more troubling is the mere existence of AP. There was no need for yet another expansion for TC. I know, I know, it's supposed to "bridge the gap" between X3 and Rebirth, but its just a blanket excuse, AP was pretty unnecessary. They could've "bridged the gap" with a simple block of cutscene in Rebirth's intro or a text scroll or something. They needlessly crowbared in yet another dose of a few plot missions, the "basically legal cheating" stock exchange, and added a dash of community scripts (AP is basically a showcase for RRF). It also inexplicably removed all the endgame gameplay elements, like the HUB, the UFJD, the player sector and the PHQ. Yes, some of these were kind of crowbarred back in with patches later, but still. Why divert people and expensive resources AWAY from your main project unless you really don't have another choice?

The weird thing is they did all this AFTER the announcement of Rebirth. I think most of us thought they were focusing on creating the new game and not messing around with the old one. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the excellent and continued support for TC, and all the free stuff they gave us in the patches is totally awesome, but I think most of us would've gladly sacrificed further development of TC so EGO could work on Rebirth full time. But the exact opposite seems to be happening. We got AP, then got a few other things in patches and now we are AP 2.5 with YET ANOTHER dose of nonsensical plot mission and f*ck all on the Rebirth front.

This is also in line with all the late desperate looking cash-grab attempts. The Superbox I understand, it's a well made collection of X games and it does have a place on my shelf. But all the later Steam sales and especially the release of AP is clearly a cash grab. Ego is trying to squeeze the last stale drops of milk from the TC cow. From Ego's side it's relatively easy to throw together a few extra plot missions using mostly the old resources. Yes, they made a couple of new sectors (Albion), but not much else really. They took most of the new scripts and functionality from the S&M forums and what I presume some scraps they had lying around. I won't be surprised if the live-action cutscene, the Torus explosion and the rest were originally made for Rebirth, but they somehow decided to get what they already finished for Rebirth and quickly cobble together another paid expansion for TC instead. The only sane reason to do this would be if they were flat broke, which I assume they are.

Of course IF true, Ego would never admit this, but I think they are pretty much broke. IMHO there is no better explanation for what's been happening in the past year or so. I think they had the idea for Rebirth a little too late after they released TC, and the dwindling sales were not really enough to keep them afloat. Remember, even when we were quite sure there was another game in the works (TNBT), they explicitly told us many times it's NOT X4, "there's not going to be another X game!". A few months later, Rebirth happened. A little odd. But it seems development on Rebirth went well for a while, they were happy to share info, screens and details about what they are working on....at first. Then the info stream slowly dried up and then stopped entirely. I think that's when development on Rebirth was just about shut down. They were pushing the Superbox and Steam sales as much as they could, but apparently it wasn't enough either. I think that's where they came up with AP as a desperate attempt to get more money and at least break even on the development costs. I think they went "okay guys, we are not going to finish Rebirth like this, and if we go like this, there won't be any Egosoft. We either get more money or we are screwed. Let's gather up what we have already completed for Rebirth, rehash it a little to fit TC and release it as a new expansion for a budget price. Maybe we can sell enough to come out of the red." Thus, AP was quickly kicked outta the door, full of game breaking bugs, with a few nonsensical plot missions that effectively crippled gameplay by removing most of what was fun in TC, a totally unnecessary cheat station and a few community scripts. Egosoft was never so brash with content and expansions before, it's clear something is wrong.

At frist I thought they could start taking pre-orders for Rebirth to get some cash flowing in, but then I started thinking. Pre-orders are basically selling the game before it's released. In a word, it's revenue they would've gotten no matter what. It comes directly off of the revenue they will be getting after release, since pre-orderers already paid for the game, they get it free at release time, so Egosoft would basically take a forward payment on Rebirth's after-release revenue, which wouldn't make them MORE money but get them a part of the SAME money a little earlier. It's a good move for games already in post-production, to get a little cash-burst just before release, but I think with all the butchering of the Rebirth project they did for AP, they are far from thinking about even an approximate release date. If they'd start taking pre-orders now, they could infuse the development and finish it in due time, but then they won't get much from sales when they release it, because most of the people who wanted to buy Rebirth, already paid for it in pre-order.

Yes, to some people this might sound like a wild fever-dream, and I may very well be wrong (oh god PLEASE let me be wrong), but all this secrecy and media ban is quite disconcerting. Egosoft is the most open and community-friendly developer team in existence that I know of. They always worked closely with the community every step of the way. The DO listen to fans, they do everything to listen to concerns and nudge gameplay features one way or the other depending on fan reaction. They made the game wide open to modders and helped them achieve a lot of things, which added enormous value to the game and helped ensure longevity and replayability. If it wasn't for the community and the modders, there wouldn't be any X-Tended expansions, no Bonus Packs, no extra mods, no nothing. Even during the development of TC they talked to the community a lot more, they answered questions and quelled concerns.

But not anymore. With Rebirth, they shut up tight. Not a peep from the Ego people for a long time now. Releasing one measly screenshot a month is basically nothing. The original release date was 10 months ago. I understand, that there could be certain hickups that might warrant some extra time in development, but devs usually tell this to their community. If indeed the only thing with Rebirth is that the Ego guys want to make sure it's totally awesome before they release it and want to put some more polish on the game, I'd understand that. I think we'd all do. But if this is the case, they should come out and tell us. "Hey guys, yea we are still alive and Rebirth is still going strong, we just need a little more time to [do this and that], don't worry. But hey, here is some more info on what we are working on..."

I won't go as far as Glen, I don't think Rebirth won't be made at all, I just think the Ego guys are in a bit of jam and won't talk about it, quite understandibly. If the dev world would know Egosoft has financial problems, publishers and large dev conglomerates would line up to buy them up. And we all know what would happen if, say, EA would buy Egosoft. *shudder* Let's hope I'm totally wrong and Rebirth is right on track and Egosoft will go to develop a whole new generation of space simulators for years to come.

[NUKLEAR-SLUG]

[ajax34i]

My CEO is nothing like that. We're not a software company but we are a small company.

I don't know what you're imagining, but there's no disconnect between the CEO and the production team at small companies; the guy knows every single detail about what's going on without having to "read our faces" and instead of making faces we go talk to him casually about what's going on whenever we feel like doing so. Almost daily.

Stop imagining how things are and stop speculating. Spend some time away from this website; you're too addicted to it / the game; it's unhealthy. The game will be published when it will be published. Nothing you can do about it.

[DarkKlown77]

Ok, here's the URL:

http://www.deepsilver.com/us/news/newsdetails/article/deep-silver-at-gamescom-2012-1/

Now here's my question, it states there that "A new title will be revealed shortly before gamescom that will be playable already at the Deep Silver public booth."

Does this mean that they'll have a playable demo of X:Rebirth?

<Merged with this thread which contains this. Alan Phipps>