[MOD] [TC/AP] X3 Rebalance Mod (XRM) - Total conversion - v1.29c (30.05.13)

[paulwheeler]

[paulwheeler]

@ Alkeena

I found that the really slow projectiles needed a much larger change in percentage than the faster projectiles. Looking at your list, your PPC and PSP are very similar. That will make Terran capitals much more powerful. There needs to be a bigger percentage difference between those two. Currently in the XRM i have PPC at 10% and PSP at 7.5%. Ive currently got the PPC at 20% and PSP at 15% although i think these values are a little too high.

[Alkeena]

PPC is honestly not much faster than the PSP--it's only only 20 m/s, or 4%, faster than the PSP.

Compare an FPD to an EMPC, where the difference is closer to a 42% (630 vs 900) speed difference, or an EMPC vs a HEPT with a 22% bullet speed difference (900 vs1100) but the OOS/IS damage ratios in XRM for these weapons are constant at 10%. Why is a 4% difference enough to call PSPs unbalanced, but a 42% difference overlooked?

If PPC/PSP are unbalanced, I would suggest that it's not in their hit percentages. The real issue is that the Terran ships are simply better than their Argon counterparts, though they're much more restrictive in loadouts and generally more expensive, and so _should_ win. The proper balance point for a generalist vs a by-design-top-tier is numbers, not artificial gimping.

If you're worried about the Argon losing, Increase the size of their defensive jobs.

[paulwheeler]

Its not just about projectile speed - nor can it be reduced to a simple equation. For instance the Gauss cannon has relatively low damage for its class to compensate for the huge range and the fact that it rarely misses. Thats fine for in sector, but it means it needs a bit of a boost for out of sector.

The PSP may only be slightly slower, but youll be amazed how much more often it misses in sector than the PPC - that evens out the fact that it does more damage. It also has a much slower fire rate and damage per shot is much, much higher, so when a shot misses it hurts overall damage much more than when a PPC misses.

All OOS sees is the damage per second. All other stats are essentially ignored.

An Osaka should beat a Titan one on one, but it shouldnt be a walk in the park. I think youll find with your values the Titan will barely scratch the Osaka.

[Aegyen]

[Alkeena]

[zhukov032186]

As a bystander...

With the evidence at hand, in the form of Alkeena's tests, and Paul's statements of current damage model...

I'm inclined to agree with Alkeena, at least in part.

Observing the exchange, I would suggest increasing the overall damage values, while retaining the mild "nerf", as it were, to PSPs to compensate for the manner in which OOS is calculated. It seems to be very realistic, that with the OOS damage values set too low, it is itself influencing the outcome unduly as a result of shield regeneration.

As for the "length" of OOS battles, aside from affecting the ability of the player to arrive and attempt to influence the outcome, I do not see the point of dragging out OOS battles. If the player is concerned about participating in a particular potential battle, then he should be there... If he's not... Then... It's just the simple logistics that he's too far away to get there in time. I don't see what relevance the "length" of the battle persay has on the accuracy of the results. If it's a 30 sec battle IS, it ideally should only last 30 sec OOS, as long as the end result is relatively accurate.

Realistically, a perfect solution to this issue will never be found, due to the manner in which OOS is calculated and the variable nature of ship load outs. If ships were hard set with certain weapons, a viable formula could be reasonably achieved. As it is, no matter what settings you choose, there will always be combinations/flukes that "win" when they shouldn't. You can only ever hope for the philosophy driving most of X decisions, namely, "it's good enough... most the time"

-edit

On an unrelated note:

I noticed that the Morrigu, which is now a light carrier design capable of docking 15 ships:

#1 Indicates in the description it only carries one fighter
#2 Does not appear to spawn with any fighters.

[Osiris454]

In general the OOS damage values need to be increased. My own testing of 50% was only as long as I was able, and that was only a few hours. I'll probably reduce that number later, but so far, battles seem a bit more 'realistic' for when I'm IS and actually watching it.

[Aegyen]

[Alkeena]

Some more tinkering done.

An OOS ratio of 12% for the PSP and 12.175% for the PPC (so the exact same functional form as I produced above, just with a new minimum of 12, max of 19, and the extra damage arising because of the bullet speed function I used) produces the following result:

2x tests, OOS, Titan vs Osaka as before. This is with the medium hull pack, which I should have mentioned before.

1st test: Osaka wins in 5:50 with 40% hull remaining
2nd test: Osaka wins in 6:10 with 25% hull remaining

Besides moving a bit faster than IS that's just about perfect fidelity from my perspective (remember, IS it was Osaka winning in 6:50 with 38% hull), without a nerf to the PSP. It's just a matter of raising base damage enough to allow the Titan to actually break the shields of the Osaka. The Osaka, meanwhile, tears through the Titan shields, but stalls on the greater Titan hull for ages, whereas the lesser hull values of the Osaka are readily apparent once the shields drop.

Bottom line, this appears to work without a nerf to the PSP. The issue is the nonlinear relationship introduced by shield recharge--you either have enough to break it, and a fair fight, or you don't have enough resulting in either a stalemate or a blowout. Raising both equally to the point that recharge doesnt dominate, without further nerfs, seems to work quite well. It just so happens that 10% was a saddle point for when PSPs can break shields and PPCs cant.

My functional form likely needs work, because the Pirate Katana vs Scimitar test was now again too highly skewed towards the Katana since the FPDs basically one-shot the scimitar shields at a 13.5% level, completely eliminating the role of recharge. I think a base value of 12ish% for Capital (PSP, PPC, etc))and medium weapons (FPD, CIG, etc), and 17-18ish% for fighter weapons (EMPC, PACs, etc) tends to produce the best results. Naturally some leeway can be given for sniper weapons, like the MAM and Gauss Canon, where the extra range and hit probability doesnt really show through in OOS (meaning they should probably be classed as fighter weapons, effectively).

[Osiris454]

[bmwfan]

When I try to change the stats for a ship or weapon nothing happens. i even change it for all the tships/tbullets included in the mod and hull pack. Is there a way to make this work?

[paulwheeler]

[paulwheeler]

[greypanther]

Fascinating!

This forum never ceases to amaze me, there is so much talent here.
Thank you Alkeena for taking the time to look at the annoying OOS battles, it could be the final step to make XRM perfect . Please continue if you have the time, for your work will be much apreciated.

Paul thank you for being open minded and for your continued peerless support for your mod. It just gets better and better.
I will say again, Egosoft would have been much better off getting behind your mod, than releasing the flawed AP.

I just wish I could get my head properly around what you guys are doing with the figures. I really will have to find some time away from real life obligations, to sit down and have a good look at what is done, to see if I am able to add to things.

Inspirational.