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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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 Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 12:22 Post subject: |
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| morikaane wrote: |
| paulwheeler wrote: |
| The Mk1 Phoenix has the most firepower, but as has been said, is extremely slow and doesn't compete with modern M2s. |
Yeah... but some of those buckets need a little more speed. It'd certainly make me feel more inclined buying one. However, having said that, I'm still a little surprised they're M2s and M1s still (and can use beam weapons).
My two cents.
M. |
They are nothing like M7s in terms of ability so should remain M2s and M1s. I agree maybe about beam weapons - but that would mean creating a whole load of new TCockpits entries and, to be honest, that's far more hassle than its worth just to remove beams.
They are supposed to be cheap alternatives to the modern versions. They are not supposed to compete on any level with them.
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Honved
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 338 on topic
Location: PA, USA, Terra, Sol System
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 14:33 Post subject: |
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| paulwheeler wrote: |
NOTE -
(This is the final nail in the coffin for me for steam - the fact that Egosoft can release an update to AP just to add extra language support, but which in fact breaks all the fixes I have made to vanilla scripts without any user intervention, asking the user if they want to update, and even ignoring the "no updates" switch is ridiculous. |
From everything I've read, the "no updates" switch only affects Steam games that you're NOT currently playing, so it doesn't waste time updating old unused games. Your CURRENTLY played game will always update when you start it, whether you wish it to or not.
It's one of a host of reasons why I will NOT buy a Steam game, and don't have AP, or several other games which require a Steam account and activation. I could live with disc-based DRM, much as I disliked some of it, but this Steam thingie is an absolute "no buy" show-stopper for me.
[End Rant]
On another note entirely, I installed XRM to try it out, and I'm somewhat perplexed at a LOT of the design decisions.
First, WHY do almost all (or every last one) of the starts put you in a ship with weapons that it can't equip? As an Argon military pilot, sitting in an expensive piece of military-grade hardware with all of the engine tunings and other tweaks that only the military or a few major corporations can reasonably afford, one might assume that they'd at least put a couple of guns on it that it can actually USE.
Worse, despite flying a ship that I'm still not permitted to buy, with a Police License which I'm also not authorized to buy, I'm not even permitted to get the weapons that my ship can actually equip, other than some paltry IREs. I docked, sold the useless PACs, and bought the only thing that I could get and use: a full battery of 8 IREs, and started the Terran Plot. First confrontation with a Xenon "N", the 8 IREs couldn't even deliver enough damage at near-point-blank range to keep up with the diminutive M5's shield regeneration rate. If a Nova with 8 of them can't even hurt an M5, what's a Disco supposed to do with 2 or 4? Utterly useless weapon now, why even have it in the game if your DPS is lower than the new boosted shield regen rates?
I took 3 "defend station" missions, and sat on 6x SETA for over 5 minutes real-time on each of them, with not a single sign of enemy action. Instant gratification by having them pop out of the jumpgate the moment you accept the mission may be a bit cheezy, but 30 minutes of wasted in-game time with nothing to do but sit there on SETA? There's got to be some sort of "middle ground".
Apparently, the way to fix the "broken" missions was to break the "working" ones, so they're all equal now.
I'm going to give the mod a bit more time for me to adjust to it, since the revised visuals are a definite improvement, but at this point, I'm really not liking a lot of the changed game mechanics.
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:08 Post subject: |
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| Honved wrote: |
First, WHY do almost all (or every last one) of the starts put you in a ship with weapons that it can't equip? As an Argon military pilot, sitting in an expensive piece of military-grade hardware with all of the engine tunings and other tweaks that only the military or a few major corporations can reasonably afford, one might assume that they'd at least put a couple of guns on it that it can actually USE.
Worse, despite flying a ship that I'm still not permitted to buy, with a Police License which I'm also not authorized to buy, I'm not even permitted to get the weapons that my ship can actually equip, other than some paltry IREs. I docked, sold the useless PACs, and bought the only thing that I could get and use: a full battery of 8 IREs, and started the Terran Plot. First confrontation with a Xenon "N", the 8 IREs couldn't even deliver enough damage at near-point-blank range to keep up with the diminutive M5's shield regeneration rate. If a Nova with 8 of them can't even hurt an M5, what's a Disco supposed to do with 2 or 4? Utterly useless weapon now, why even have it in the game if your DPS is lower than the new boosted shield regen rates?
I took 3 "defend station" missions, and sat on 6x SETA for over 5 minutes real-time on each of them, with not a single sign of enemy action. Instant gratification by having them pop out of the jumpgate the moment you accept the mission may be a bit cheezy, but 30 minutes of wasted in-game time with nothing to do but sit there on SETA? There's got to be some sort of "middle ground".
Apparently, the way to fix the "broken" missions was to break the "working" ones, so they're all equal now.
I'm going to give the mod a bit more time for me to adjust to it, since the revised visuals are a definite improvement, but at this point, I'm really not liking a lot of the changed game mechanics. |
Well it sounds like you have either not installed the XRM correctly or you have a conflicting mod installed.
All starts give you weapons that you can mount - if you are not seeing this something is wrong. PACs can be installed on all commonwealth ships of M4 class and above (and many M5s).
No missions have been changed at all - again it sounds like something is wrong with your installation.
I mean, do you honestly think this mod would be as popular as it is if there were that many basic, school boy errors?
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Last edited by paulwheeler on Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:22; edited 1 time in total |
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greypanther
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Posts: 1059 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:14 Post subject: |
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@ zhukov032186; no worries mate. 
No sorry cannot agree with you guys, I honestly feel the some of the pricing needs to be reviewed, Some of the M7s are way overpriced for what they offer; as are some of the M6s. However I think we will have to agree to differ, I suspect and I will have to have a little work around to get things where they should be.
As for the Thresher being worth so much more than the Shrike, what you on guys? The Thresher has some good stats and on paper its a better ship in most ways, however you forget the Threshers ridiculous size. Yes it can mount cap ship weapons and the Shrike cannot any more, but those ten forward guns, on the Thresher, are not good, they have suce a stupidly large spread that many will miss. Further the sheer size of the Thresher makes it a very easy target, you just cannot miss hitting the thing! The Shrike has a much smaller profile, which counts for a lot, imo. Also you seem to be forgetting the 8 IBLs on the forward mount of the Shrike. Whats more the Shrike can carry 8 fighters.
I have always thought the Thresher should have been updated/buffed, to a light destroyer; which incidently according to the lore, ( I seem to remember reading, ) is what the Boron intended in the design of the ship.
Just checked and the threser in Kingdoms End is going for 58,123,313; the Shrike in Grand Exchange is going for 41,338, 410; the Mk1 phoenix is going for 65,507,603. As I said the price of the M7s needs to be reviewed. I do not mean with that either, that some of them need to be increased, but some to be lowered, imo. Neither should the Mk1s be increased.
The same problem with some of the M6s, some of them are just sill prices. You can actueally buy some M7s for less than you can buy som M6s, if I remember correctly.
I feel the problem is that the price range for bothe M7s and M6s is just too great. I can understand such huge price differences among the M1s and M2s, the stat differences account for that.
If I remember correctly, the price range of M6s varies from just under 6 million to just under 40 million. There is no way the dearest M6 is worth so much more than the cheapest, in any way, shape or form.
Similar with M7s; again if I remember correctly, the cheapest is about 37 mil, the dearest 64 mil? In my opinion that is too big a range, for not enough gain.
I think I will test just how some of these compare in the hands of the AI, when fighting each other, could be eye opening for me.
As for the look of the Mk1s, well as a fan of Teladi ships, I quite like the Phoenix mk1! Don't you dare nerf it Paul! 
The Boron MK1 Shark and Ray, are in fact great looking ships, perhaps even my favourite of the ones you added; I loves them. For that matter I love the look of the Thresher, its just such a wimp.
Size of the Thresher: unless Paul has reduced the size, ( which perhaps it needs, ) is in fact longer that the Titan; easily twice the length of the Shrike. From above the Thresher is easily 4 times the size of the Titan, 6 times the size of the Shrike? From the front the thresher is twice the size of the Titan and 8 times the size of the Shrike?
the above assumption comes from the size comparison chart of ships; dunno for sure how acurate it is. 
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=244972
Whats more the Threshers wings are a nuisance at times; talk about fighter and M6 swatters or what?
Last edited by greypanther on Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:17; edited 1 time in total |
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TrixX
Joined: 18 Aug 2010
Posts: 1893 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:15 Post subject: |
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| Honved wrote: |
From everything I've read, the "no updates" switch only affects Steam games that you're NOT currently playing, so it doesn't waste time updating old unused games. Your CURRENTLY played game will always update when you start it, whether you wish it to or not.
It's one of a host of reasons why I will NOT buy a Steam game, and don't have AP, or several other games which require a Steam account and activation. I could live with disc-based DRM, much as I disliked some of it, but this Steam thingie is an absolute "no buy" show-stopper for me.
[End Rant] |
Rant is kinda pointless. You can purchase AP on steam (or in a store) and download the No Steam EXE supplied directly from Egosoft in the Albion Prelude downloads section of this very site.
Steam can be frustrating but that little EXE allows you to make a copy of the install directory and move it to another location and run a standalone game from there quite easily. You could even have two copies to allow for a modded game too.
TBH I'm utterly bored of all the fallacious Anti-Steam crap flying about. It's not the best thing in the world but it doesn't take much to find ways around it either. Just a bit of googling...
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:26 Post subject: |
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| greypanther wrote: |
Size of the Thresher: unless Paul has reduced the size, ( which perhaps it needs, ) is in fact longer that the Titan; easily twice the length of the Shrike. From above the Thresher is easily 4 times the size of the Titan, 6 times the size of the Shrike? From the front the thresher is twice the size of the Titan and 8 times the size of the Shrike?
the above assumption comes from the size comparison chart of ships; dunno for sure how acurate it is.
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=244972
Whats more the Threshers wings are a nuisance at times; talk about fighter and M6 swatters or what? |
Now that is a fair point and something I will look at. I can easily shrink it to perhaps 80% of its current size - it is huge! Its pricing is right though, and is consistent with other heavy assault M7s, of which the Shrike is NOT one.
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greypanther
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Posts: 1059 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:34 Post subject: |
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Well thank you for considering a Thresher size change anyway! It would increase its value.
We will have to agree to differ I think, cos I feel very strongly that some M6 and M7 prices are just very silly.
Incidently, the Shrike was the best of the M7s in vanilla, Panther aside. only the Tiger came close.
if you won't even consider lowering some of the M6/M7 prices, no worries, I will just work around it. 
( Any M6 worth more than a M7?   )
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:36 Post subject: |
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X3 Rebalance Mod v1.23
----------------------------
Update for TC and AP users.
IF RUNNING A STEAM INSTALL PLEASE ENSURE YOU HAVE UPDATED ALBION PRELUDE TO 2.0a AND TC TO 3.2a BEFORE UPDATING.
(This is to ensure that steam is not going to overwrite any XRM scripts, so if you are running a separate non-steam install, there is no need to worry)
If continuing a 1.22 XRM save it is essential that you follow the update instructions below.
!!PLEASE READ THE PATCH INSTRUCTIONS!!
COMPONENTS THAT REQUIRE UPDATING:
XRM Part 2
XRM Backgrounds Pack
Please ensure that you recopy all scripts from Part 2 as many have changed. Just copy and paste them into your scripts folder overwriting the originals. This is especially important with this update due to the recent Steam updates.
AP Users - copy scripts from the folder "scripts_AP"
TC Users - copy scripts from the folder "scripts_TC"
SHIPS THAT REQUIRE CLONING:
If continuing a save game
None
SHIPS THAT MUST NOT BE IN SECTOR DURING UPGRADE:
If continuing a save game
None
Changelog:
Fixed - Refreshed all RRF jobs to make sure they are running the fixed XRM scripts after the AP update.
Fixed - Removed USC licence requirement for Terran Military Intel Network in TC.
Fixed - Updated Litcube's Missile Boat Resupply script to latest version.
Fixed - Adjusted balance of System Override Software and added hackerchip and ecell requirements. Price of hackerchips has been increased.
Fixed - Smoothed out all background textures to remove as many compression artifacts as possible (backgrounds pack).
Added - Polish translation.
Added - Hackerchips for sale at many locations.
SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS IF CONTINUING A V1.22 XRM GAME - BOTH TC AND AP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please follow these instructions to fully benefit from all the above fixes in a continuing game.
- Update all XRM components required
- Load your save.
- If not already enabled, enable the script editor (change pilot name to "Thereshallbewings")
If running Albion Prelude:
- Open the script editor and scroll down to the following script: "temp.xrm.1.22to1.23patch.AP".
- Hit "r" then enter twice to run the script
If running Terran Conflict:
- Open the script editor and scroll down to the following script: "temp.xrm.1.22to1.23patch.TC".
- Hit "r" then enter twice to run the script
A new game does not require these patches to be run.
NOTES:-
As you may have spotted, when steam versions of AP or TC update, they will verify all files in the cache and so overwrite all XRM modified versions.
You will need to recopy all scripts from Part 2 whenever TC or AP update - BEFORE loading an XRM save. Also steam will put the 00044 file back into the mov folder so this will need removing again.
Best practise is to create a completely separate installation for the XRM and keep your main steam install as vanilla.
SOS adjustments - Hacking a derelict ship is unchanged and remains free. Hacking and active ship now requires 1x hackerchip and 10x energy cells per encryption layer. So a fighter requires 2xHCs and 20xECs, an M6 requires 3xHCs and 30xECs etc. I have also slightly reduced the failure rate and corvettes, fighters and transports now have a higher shield threshold.
I cannot push the price of hackerchips any higher, otherwise the amount that can be stored for sale at a dock will reduce to unusable levels.
The update script will destroy all current RRF ships so they respawn using the correct fixed XRM scripts.
Thanks to Yacek for the Polish translation.
There is no need to update Part 1 or Hull Packs with this release.
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Last edited by paulwheeler on Tue, 19. Jun 12, 17:37; edited 4 times in total |
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greypanther
Joined: 24 Nov 2010
Posts: 1059 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 15:56 Post subject: |
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Thank you for the update paul.
Don't supose you managed to change the Thresher size before you uploaded did you?
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 16:07 Post subject: |
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| greypanther wrote: |
Thank you for the update paul.
Don't supose you managed to change the Thresher size before you uploaded did you? |
No. This update was rushed out just to refresh everyone's RRF in case steam broke it.
I'll look into that for 1.24.
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Aegyen
Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 245 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 17:33 Post subject: |
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Paul,
You have a typo up there in the install instructions. You DID make a new patch for the save games..
Run "temp.xrm.1.22to1.23patch.AP(TC)".
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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Arbiter Kane
Joined: 05 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 20:59 Post subject: |
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sigh...ok...about the missing hull sections and the spikes on everything, I uninstalled everything, re-installed TC and AP, updated video and sound drivers, and verified all files on both games through steam and still, there are chunks missing from ships and spikes on everything and it's just junk. I looked in tech forum, and all over the place and can't find a fix. I figured you all are the brainiest of the bunch and would know wtf I could do about it, cause as it sits now, I can't play the game with how crappy it looks. I tried lowering all graphics settings and that didn't work either. The game has been working just fine for months, and has worked fine with XRM and Paul's latest patches. It was after the stupid steam patch that this started happening. I love this game and especially the XRM universe and this is making me sad. Sad is stupid. Thanks folks.
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paulwheeler
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 7197 on topic
Location: London
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 22:00 Post subject: |
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Can you post a few screenshots of the problem? Im still not convinced this is an X3 or an XRM issue... have you tried vanilla? Might be worth posting a dxdiag in the tech support forum (no point posting it here - ive no idea about it).
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zhukov032186
Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 114 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 19. Jun 12, 22:04 Post subject: |
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@greypanther
I was using the Modelviewer, it has a tab for scale comparison. Click it, and the largest ship is shown at whatever zoom you are at, and the other ships are shrunk to scale. The Thresher is extremely large, as you mentioned I don't know how I thought it was not...
Regarding the Modelviewer, the stats are reliable on it except for the price. I've repeatedly noticed discrepancy on pricing, and I'm not sure if it's because of inaccuracy on the program's side, or if race standing affects ship price. I know it affects wares for a certainty after last night.
I had never paid much attention before, but after I group upgraded some fighters and noticed my empty wallet, I went back and noticed that they were not even bothering to lube up for me... Bastards... But I digress.
Regarding the Shrike, you're right. I didn't notice the fighter complement. That definitely gives it the edge there. Having seen the Thresher in more detail, I agree it needs either a buff or a shrinking. On that note, you can make alterations with X3 Editor 2 to your Tships. Since I got it a few days ago, I've already made a number of tweaks to my taste.
Added a few non-XRM ships... Adding boarding pod capability to all capital ships (because it just odd that only corvettes and personnel transports can send guys with guns to attack other ships???). I also intend to slightly reduce M7 maneuverability.
[pointless rambling] If X3 AI was capable of handling it, I'd increase the speeds of all capital ships to several times what they are. I've never understood why so many games are built on a WWII style mentality (buzzing fighters, and slow, lumbering capital ships) when in space it's not like that at all. In fact, in-RL, it's unlikely "fighters" persay would even exist in space, due to insufficient life support and inadequate power capacity... [/pointless rambling]
-edit
I think I'm one of the only people on this forum that didn't total screw up their X install I'm still running X3AP from before the patch, and still running XRM 1.22b with no problems and no immediate intentions to upgrade I also am confident that when I get around to it, I'll be able to upgrade smoothly
In everyone's defense, however... There was no way to know that it was going to overwrite your CAT and no reason to think you needed to check for that.
Still, I find the chaos amusing, while I stand here sipping my martini.
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