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Mightysword
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 1933 on topic
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 Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 02:16 Post subject: |
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| quase wrote: |
Don't you think, Mightysword, that the engineering is included in the price of a car as well or the construction of the assembly line, the designers, the engineers and their software licenses they use on top, testing, developing and building the car.
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I did, that's why in the original message I said "partial R&D" cost, and a "threshold" about how many they have to sell to make a profit. 
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After all, bad example Mightysword! 
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No, I think you just misinterpret it. The point is when people buy a car, all of the car assets belong to them. You can take out the wheel and sell it to someone else, you can yank out the engine and trade it, nobody care. After all, you pay $18000 for those physical component.
A game asset, like engine, art, sound ...etc... are different, and thinking with only $50 you are given total ownership of them are quite unreasonable. Again, this is just a case of something wrong but nobody care up until now, and when it can be enforced people get pissed because now they get caught, and not because it's a new rule.
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NUKLEAR-SLUG
 
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 2279 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 03:52 Post subject: |
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| quase wrote: |
| pjknibbs wrote: |
As for that comment, the point I was making is that there is no fundamental difference between paying for a game on Steam or buying a physical disc in terms of what it offers you. The EULA for this software may not have been tested in court, but until it is so tested and found to be wanting, it is *legally binding*--it is part of the contract between yourself and the game publisher, and you don't get to ignore the terms that you dislike. |
The problem with this is that the legal twilight zone is twisting the burden of proof with account binding in favour of the publisher. Ever since, if I broke the EULA, the publisher always had the right to sue me. They never did so because they also knew that there was no legal foundation favouring any side, be it the customer or the publisher (and maybe because detecting my EULA infringement was mostly impossible). Now with account binding I have to sue the publisher, but again while there is still no legal foundation whether or not a EULA is binding or not. I can not afford to sue the publisher as long as I can not be sure if the costs for probably losing this lawsuit would then ruin me. |
That the EULA system hasn't been definitively tested in court doesn't in any way absolve you of your responsibilities to uphold your end of the contract you entered into when you agreed to the terms and conditions of use of that product. You don't have to like the terms, you don't have to even agree with them, but the moment you sign/accept them you are, as pjknibbs correctly says, legally bound by them.
Now if you want to challenge the validity of the EULA system then by all means, as you say, sue the publisher. If you win then demonstrably yes, you'll have shown the EULA to not be a legally binding agreement. Until that time tho it remains entirely valid.
If you want to argue the point that you can't afford to be suing a publisher then that may well be true but that's your problem. Tough luck. Your inability to fund your personal desire to sue a publisher again does not magically bestow upon you the right in the interim to breach your contractual obligations under the terms that you agreed to purely because you're a bit short of cash.
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quase
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 11:11 Post subject: |
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| NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote: |
| quase wrote: |
| pjknibbs wrote: |
As for that comment, the point I was making is that there is no fundamental difference between paying for a game on Steam or buying a physical disc in terms of what it offers you. The EULA for this software may not have been tested in court, but until it is so tested and found to be wanting, it is *legally binding*--it is part of the contract between yourself and the game publisher, and you don't get to ignore the terms that you dislike. |
The problem with this is that the legal twilight zone is twisting the burden of proof with account binding in favour of the publisher. Ever since, if I broke the EULA, the publisher always had the right to sue me. They never did so because they also knew that there was no legal foundation favouring any side, be it the customer or the publisher (and maybe because detecting my EULA infringement was mostly impossible). Now with account binding I have to sue the publisher, but again while there is still no legal foundation whether or not a EULA is binding or not. I can not afford to sue the publisher as long as I can not be sure if the costs for probably losing this lawsuit would then ruin me. |
That the EULA system hasn't been definitively tested in court doesn't in any way absolve you of your responsibilities to uphold your end of the contract you entered into when you agreed to the terms and conditions of use of that product. You don't have to like the terms, you don't have to even agree with them, but the moment you sign/accept them you are, as pjknibbs correctly says, legally bound by them.
Now if you want to challenge the validity of the EULA system then by all means, as you say, sue the publisher. If you win then demonstrably yes, you'll have shown the EULA to not be a legally binding agreement. Until that time tho it remains entirely valid.
If you want to argue the point that you can't afford to be suing a publisher then that may well be true but that's your problem. Tough luck. Your inability to fund your personal desire to sue a publisher again does not magically bestow upon you the right in the interim to breach your contractual obligations under the terms that you agreed to purely because you're a bit short of cash. |
What always rages me to no end is how one can so vehemently defend the position of the publisher. Fact is, the EULA is a single sided contract favouring the publisher, restricting the customer from all rights, except a very limited right of usage of a bought license. On the other hand, as long as they sell something the principle of exhaustion shifts the owner right. The license is my property, I can do whatever I want with it, as long as I do not hurt the intellectual property by a copy right infringement.
It would be arguable if they would speak about renting in the EULA.
I also do not see why the weaker position in the court, the single customer, should carry the burden to do a lawsuit. It should be the responsibility and the right of the content provider to do lawsuits against infringements, but it can not be good practice to twist this burden of proof by actually not handing out the licenses in the first place. Even though the license has been sold for example, it remains the property of the content provider because of account binding? This is just stupid if you think so, such a system is called renting.
The customer rights protection is there to avoid such situations where you are in the weaker position against a company, but with the help of account binding and the legal twilight zone, the publisher can easily undermine any customer protection ... and many customers willingly support this and even defend the position of the publisher ... nowhere, but in the gaming industry this works. 
| Mightysword wrote: |
No, I think you just misinterpret it. The point is when people buy a car, all of the car assets belong to them. You can take out the wheel and sell it to someone else, you can yank out the engine and trade it, nobody care. After all, you pay $18000 for those physical component.
A game asset, like engine, art, sound ...etc... are different, and thinking with only $50 you are given total ownership of them are quite unreasonable. Again, this is just a case of something wrong but nobody care up until now, and when it can be enforced people get pissed because now they get caught, and not because it's a new rule.
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I fail to see the difference between a car and the software. Do you think the car design, the motor technology or the car operating system is your property because you paid 18.000 €? Actually you have only bought the usage right for these components as well. Just because the car manufacturer can not enforce you, you can sell the parts? How can it apply to one thing and not to another thing? How can reselling of two bought things be restricted in one case and not in another case?
What we need is a legal foundation that digital goods are equal to physical goods. This way we would end this kind of discussion one and for all times.
Again, I have bought one license for one copy. This one license is my property. I can change the program (aka modding), I can give it away to somebody else or I can sell it (as long as I do not remain in access to this license or even still use it). If I give my license to my dad, he is then the owner of this license.
I can not however make multiple copies of one license and sell them for profit because this would be an copy right infringement. I am also not allowed to rent this license out to a friend for money. There are various rights for the customer and many things that influence each other. Fact is the rights of the customer and the content provider are balanced and fair, but with account binding the content provider is changing this balance.
_________________
Someday, somewhere, today's empires are tomorrow's ashes. |
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NUKLEAR-SLUG
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 2279 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 14:21 Post subject: |
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| quase wrote: |
What always rages me to no end is how one can so vehemently defend the position of the publisher. Fact is, the EULA is a single sided contract favouring the publisher, restricting the customer from all rights, except a very limited right of usage of a bought license. On the other hand, as long as they sell something the principle of exhaustion shifts the owner right. The license is my property, I can do whatever I want with it, as long as I do not hurt the intellectual property by a copy right infringement.
It would be arguable if they would speak about renting in the EULA. |
If I'm defending their position then it's because it's correct. You are not sold the software, you are sold a license to use the software. The fact that it came in a pretty box on a shiny disc that they let you keep so you have something to put on your shelf doesn't change that.
Your consumer rights are not being denied in any way. If you object to the licensing agreement on a particular product then you should exercise your consumer right to decline to accept that agreement and not use that software.
Last edited by NUKLEAR-SLUG on Mon, 30. Apr 12, 14:22; edited 1 time in total |
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Rabiator der II.
Joined: 14 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 14:22 Post subject: |
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| pjknibbs wrote: |
| fox jumps wrote: |
I hope this is your personal opinion.
1) ?? Under what circumstances do you view handing over hard cash acceptable in terms of reducing your existing consumer rights?
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If it's not mine, whose is it? 
As for that comment, the point I was making is that there is no fundamental difference between paying for a game on Steam or buying a physical disc in terms of what it offers you. The EULA for this software may not have been tested in court, but until it is so tested and found to be wanting, it is *legally binding*--it is part of the contract between yourself and the game publisher, and you don't get to ignore the terms that you dislike. |
But maybe you get to ignore the terms the law does not like
This may sound like splitting hairs, but a lawsuit between customer and game publisher is exactly the point where it is decided if the EULA is legally binding (and I guess it depends a lot on jurisdiction and circumstances).
Up to that point, the EULA might as well be baseless legal bluster by the publisher.
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CBJ
EGOSOFT
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Posts: 32435 on topic
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| Posted: Mon, 30. Apr 12, 15:19 Post subject: |
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No, up to that point the EULA is a legally binding contract that you agree to when you install the software, regardless of whether you bought it from Steam or elsewhere.
And that is where discussion of this is going to end, I'm afraid, because otherwise we are in danger of crossing the line that almost always gets crossed in these discussions, where people advocate illegal activities.
Edit: For clarity, the thread stays open for discussion of Steam in general.
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David Howland
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 1236 on topic
Location: YORKSHIRE, ENGLAND.
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 12:28 Post subject: Steam Difficulty? |
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Why oh why is Steam so bl***y difficult?
I have just read a thread where a moderator was advising a player in the Universe forum. The player was wondering why the Bankrupt As. start was flagging up as modified, clearly this player was no beginner, but in the opinion of the advisers he had managed to put the bonus pack in the wrong place!
I have read this thing about putting a patch or game in the wrong place with steam, on a number of occasions before. I find this sort of problem very puzzling, I would have thought the idea of using services like Steam was to make buying and using games easier not more difficult. I mean to say, when I download a patch from this site or for that matter a patch or driver for anything else, one downloads and runs it and it is all done automatically. WHY IS STEAM NOT AS EASY? Really considering it is a service supposedly specialising in this sort of thing, IT SHOULD BE EVEN EASIER!
While reading this thread I have struggled through numerous posts complaining something will not work and the page long WORKAROUND that follows. Honestly it would be easier to program the game from scratch than implement some of these WORKAROUNDs!
I just know that if you lot ever con me into joining Steam and I use it to buy (sorry rent) Rebirth, it would take me a year of frustration to get it to run properly and that is just the steam problems, the game bugs would take a few months more.
The only conclusion I can draw is that all these Happy Steamers must be IT graduates, how else could they avoid ending up in the loony bin?
_________________
The BANISHED RETURNS.
HEALTH WARNING! Steam Damages Freedom Of Speech!
Congratulations Egosoft on increasing memory usage from 2 to 3 Gb.
Bin playing X too long when Egosoft refuses to sell you their latest game?
The only steam I want is in my kettle! STEAM=GAME OVER. |
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Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 10519 on topic
Location: Stonehenge, UK
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 13:02 Post subject: |
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If you read that thread again, the OP posts that he cannot get the AP Bonus Pack to work with TC. The BPs are an Egosoft bonus download from here and are nothing to do with Steam installation. Their installation is 'automatic' if you point the installer to the correct game folder - how is that different to any DVD game patch/add-on? Also how many game application patches do you know of that work if installed in different games or folders to the one(s) intended?
It was another Player who assisted and advised the OP, I just said that if he had incorrectly installed or misplaced a BP then it might be responsible for his unexpected modified flag but that I was not sure.
Neither the OP nor the helpers once mentioned or blamed Steam. Draw your own conclusions - Oh, you already have.
_________________
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.
Last edited by Alan Phipps on Tue, 1. May 12, 14:16; edited 1 time in total |
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NUKLEAR-SLUG
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 2279 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 14:01 Post subject: |
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So... in summary the 'Steam' problem turned out to actually be a simple user error and not a Steam problem at all, and the 'page long WORKAROUND that follow(ed)' amounted to 'Please install the correct Bonuspack'.
I don't know how the average user is expected to cope with such IT graduate level demands! 
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KextV8
Joined: 13 Oct 2010
Posts: 94 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 16:06 Post subject: |
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I use Steam constantly. My Favorite digital distributor.
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EmperorJon
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 6666 on topic
Location: Leicester
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jrd417
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 324 on topic
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 19:44 Post subject: |
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Hi all, I've been reading the arguments for and against steam in this thread and here is my opinion about Egosoft using steam to distribute it's games.
I think it is great that Egosoft found a way to get it's product in front of more people. I only wish they would give us a choice. Not the choice of if you want to play the game you must have Steam but the choice of buying a physical copy of the game (X3AP or X Rebirth) and being able to install the game without any connection to Steam and the internet at all or just buy it from Steam. Now i am not well educated in the game publishing side of this but it would seem that Egosoft could have negotiated with Deep Silver to be able to distribute the games in both ways. I wouldn't mind having to enter a number from inside the game package to install the game or registering my game on the Egosoft web site to download patches or other content. But the requirement that i have an internet connection pretty much prevents me from playing. I miss out on a lot of the new games because of my lack of internet connection. If it wasn't for the public library I couldn't even read this forum.
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the-danzorz
Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 300 on topic
Location: Home of Light
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| Posted: Tue, 1. May 12, 21:19 Post subject: |
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| jrd417 wrote: |
Hi all, I've been reading the arguments for and against steam in this thread and here is my opinion about Egosoft using steam to distribute it's games.
I think it is great that Egosoft found a way to get it's product in front of more people. I only wish they would give us a choice. Not the choice of if you want to play the game you must have Steam but the choice of buying a physical copy of the game (X3AP or X Rebirth) and being able to install the game without any connection to Steam and the internet at all or just buy it from Steam. Now i am not well educated in the game publishing side of this but it would seem that Egosoft could have negotiated with Deep Silver to be able to distribute the games in both ways. I wouldn't mind having to enter a number from inside the game package to install the game or registering my game on the Egosoft web site to download patches or other content. But the requirement that i have an internet connection pretty much prevents me from playing. I miss out on a lot of the new games because of my lack of internet connection. If it wasn't for the public library I couldn't even read this forum. |
There will be a Physical copy of the game, you also don't need to be online to play, save your game or anything. Just to verify the game is legit from time to time.
All you will be asked to download is patches, which it seems you will be doing anyway?
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NUKLEAR-SLUG
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 2279 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 2. May 12, 02:26 Post subject: |
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| the-danzorz wrote: |
There will be a Physical copy of the game, you also don't need to be online to play, save your game or anything. Just to verify the game is legit from time to time.
All you will be asked to download is patches, which it seems you will be doing anyway? |
Quite possibly not if the only net access he has is through a library machine. They might not take kindly to installing Steam on there.
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thetack
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 787 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 2. May 12, 11:55 Post subject: |
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or your only good internet conection is at work where you would get your p45 the same day.
without wasting my time going through this lot of over reaction and hissi fits has Bernd said anything about the steam requirments yet as he is only realy the one who can sort this out and let us know exactly how mutch infection is required
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