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AdrianM
  
Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 1820 on topic
Location: Here
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 Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 15:25 Post subject: |
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| Samuel Creshal wrote: |
| Morkonan wrote: |
| Parents expect the "free" school they send little Johnny to turn him into a doctor, lawyer, astronaut, Michaelangelo or the next President of the United States. |
And yet – in developed countries, it works.  |
Where?
Not in US or Europe which is still in "crisis" with all those great schools and briliant past and future pupils.You must be talkin about a different planet
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philip_hughes
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 2065 on topic
Location: In a battered urn amongst the towels at the bottom of egosofts laundry chute (Sydney branch)
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| Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 21:47 Post subject: |
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I think he was just having a dig at America. What thread is complete without that?
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Split now give me death? Nah. Just give me your ship. |
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cj-spartacus
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1088 on topic
Location: Glasgow - Scotland
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| Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 21:53 Post subject: |
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| philip_hughes wrote: |
| I think he was just having a dig at America. What thread is complete without that? |
What did America do now?
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"Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken." - Tyler Durden |
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philip_hughes
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
Posts: 2065 on topic
Location: In a battered urn amongst the towels at the bottom of egosofts laundry chute (Sydney branch)
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| Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 23:24 Post subject: |
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Let's just make something up...
They passed a law banning berets
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Samuel Creshal
Joined: 06 Mar 2004
Posts: 4328 on topic
Location: Graz, Austria
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| Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 23:28 Post subject: |
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| AdrianM wrote: |
| Samuel Creshal wrote: |
| Morkonan wrote: |
| Parents expect the "free" school they send little Johnny to turn him into a doctor, lawyer, astronaut, Michaelangelo or the next President of the United States. |
And yet – in developed countries, it works. |
Where? |
Scandinavia. 
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Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO is the answer.
Devchat UI | YakiMinecraftServer |
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Incubi
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 1852 on topic
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| Posted: Tue, 13. Mar 12, 23:30 Post subject: |
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| cj-spartacus wrote: |
| philip_hughes wrote: |
| I think he was just having a dig at America. What thread is complete without that? |
What did America do now? |
Make more lawyers.
In America lawyers, are people who know how get around the law. So they are all criminals, who only use the law if it furthers their criminal gains.
Shame really, they where suppossed to improve a legal system.
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Tracker001
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 838 on topic
Location: The Cave
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 01:49 Post subject: |
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Source BBC
MOST HATED PROFESSIONS
1.Traffic wardens
2.Bouncers
3.Estate agents
4.Motorcycle couriers
5.Bus drivers
6.Footballers
7.Tele-sales reps
8.PR people
9.Politicians
10.Reality TV show contestants
U.S.
- Chosen by Asker
Top ten:
10. Congressmen
9.Business Executives
8.Senators
7.Auto Mechanics
6.Stockbrokers
5.Lawyers
4.Labor Union Leaders
3. Insurance Salesmen
2. Advertising practitioners
and in first place for the X X year in a row . .....
1. Car salesman
_________________
Book TV
https://www.coursera.org/#
I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
David Herbert Lawrence |
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Xander Cade
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 807 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 05:32 Post subject: |
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I think one of the biggest problems in American education is the local School Board. Local funding and curricula are awful ideas that can only lead to parochial education. It creates a distinct gap between populations. Education needs to be equal regardless of local factors like income. Education is the single most important investment a nation can make in it's future and should be treated as such.
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"What he doesn't understand is that the Welsh are a subject people, put on Earth to do menial tasks for the English." - John Cleese |
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Incubi
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 1852 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 07:01 Post subject: |
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| Xander Cade wrote: |
| I think one of the biggest problems in American education is the local School Board. Local funding and curricula are awful ideas that can only lead to parochial education. It creates a distinct gap between populations. Education needs to be equal regardless of local factors like income. Education is the single most important investment a nation can make in it's future and should be treated as such. |
It is one of the first things our states cuts when short on money. Well any "socialistic" program gets cut first to be honest.
I quoted "socialistic" because our anti socialism right wing are rather paranoid and call anything generous and nice as socialistic. Even social security for the old This survival of the fittest attitude in American has got to stop before things get any worse. I can't say I am sure how capitalism became darwinism.... but I have a feeling it has its roots in the "red" scare.
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Tracker001
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 838 on topic
Location: The Cave
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 08:56 Post subject: |
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(Money is often spoken of as capital, but is actually a symbolic medium of exchange that stands in for the real goods that comprise the actual capital.)
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On the island on which Crusoe finds himself nothing readily accommodates the basic requirements of human life. Because of this, Crusoe, is faced with the necessity of feeding, clothing, and sheltering himself. He is able to salvage a few tools from the wreckage of his ship, and sets out to provide these basics for himself. When economists speak of "production", they are most fundamentally referring to this sort of Crusoe-like effort to provide for oneself (and perhaps for one's family) because human needs cannot normally be met without toil.
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Now, Crusoe was initially the only inhabitant of his island. For so long as that was the case, he could not have become a capitalist in the conventional sense, because a capitalist of this sort is someone who profits from the economic employment of his capital, even though he does no work with that capital himself. However, if Crusoe had rented the use of the shovel to a later inhabitant of the island, the man known as "Friday", he would then have become a capitalist as we usually understand that term. That is, economic benefit would have accrued to him from the employment of his capital (the shovel) without further labor on his own part.
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Quite surprisingly for most, any economy that is capital-centric may be properly referred to as capitalistic. Thus, in nearly all cases, both socialistic and communistic economies have actually been forms of capitalism. The distinction among these three economic systems does not arise from the distinction between labor-centric and capital-centric economic orientations. It arises, rather, from differences in the ownership and control of the means of production, and in the way that these differences are rationalized. (Whether in principle any given economy should be labor-centric or capital-centric depends initially upon its resource base. Obviously, Crusoe had no choice but to begin from a labor-centric economy because of his very limited capital. Many so-called "third world" nations are in the same position.)
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Interesting so far . Must share even if not completed reading Link>>
A Progressive Living Essay.
Me not know if I'll agree with subtitle "Capitalism, Socialism & Communism:
What They Are, Why They Don't Work, "What Works Better"
| Quote: |
Definition: Any economy that derives most of its production from the employment of capital may be said to be capitalistic. There is no true "opposite" of capitalism, but capitalism stands in most direct contrast with "laborism", or economies that derive most of their production from human labor. In practice, there are no economies that are purely capitalistic or purely "laboristic". |
Gorg.
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https://www.coursera.org/#
I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
David Herbert Lawrence |
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Xander Cade
Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 807 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 08:59 Post subject: |
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Because Americans have had it hammered into them for decades that "socialism" = "communism" = "Stalinism" and seem to think it's a short step from having things like a minimum wage to gulags.
If I were a tin-foil hatter I would be pointing out how equating education spending with socialism keeps the masses stupid and pliable. Since I'm not I will settle for pointing out that a highly educated populace does more for an economy than any amount of tax breaks for corporations.
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"What he doesn't understand is that the Welsh are a subject people, put on Earth to do menial tasks for the English." - John Cleese |
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Usenko
Moderator (English)
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 371 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 10:03 Post subject: |
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| Morkonan wrote: |
| Usenko wrote: |
| Morkonan wrote: |
Oh, I didn't know that! All you guys with an accent sound alike, to me....  |
I understand. All you Spaniards sound similar to me too.  |
It's the tentacles. They make it difficult to pronounce certain consonants. See? Damn Martian ancestor was hiding in the woodpile,just before the War of Northern Aggression. (American Civil War for you Yankees and "ferners.")
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What's an "International Baccalaureate?"
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Ironically, considering that you don't know it, it's a high school qualification that is accepted internationally. I know that the USA is one of the countries that accept it, but if what happens in Australia is anything to go by, it's poorly promoted (hence the fact that you don't know about it!). It's a good qualification though.
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| Quote: |
| ...NSW has a well established curriculum, and a quarter of the population of the country; heaven knows WE don't need to change, so our Board of Studies is basically saying "We'll implement the new curriculum when it meets our standards, thank you very much". |
Ah, that's somewhere between "Soon" and "When Hell freezes over" I take it?
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You have a good grasp of the political realities, I see . .
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Here's some zingers for you:
1) What is your opinion on "tenure" programs for teachers?
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I don't really have an opinion on it. It isn't really part of the teaching structure in Australia, except for the fact that (as discussed previously in other threads) it's really hard to sack ANYONE for ANYTHING.
To be perfectly honest, I had to read the link just to figure out what it means (in specifics - we hear the word all the time in overseas TV and movies! ). . .
| Quote: |
2) Are you in favor of results oriented education and/or critical performance evaluations for teachers based on their student's performance?
(Some call this "Teaching to the test" in a worst-case scenario. But, feel free to introduce whatever scenarios you wish for discussion.) |
Great question!
I am already in a performance based pay structure (and if I may brag a little, I have reached the top of said pay scale!). This is a part of the deal in Independent schools in NSW. And it's not a part of the state school system. I think it is one of the many reasons why our system is superior to the state system.
However, the performance that I am graded on is nothing so simple as "lots of your kids get good marks". The reason for this is something a lot of people miss.
If you want to ensure that a lot of your kids get good marks, your best bet is to select the kids ahead of time. We have selective schools in NSW. Their stats in the HSC results are impressive - but do they actually add any value at all to the kids who are sent there? Jury is out, but I'd suggest no.
In short, results of the students are too easy to manipulate.
Now, some people would say "Well, then, change it - make it so that teachers get rewarded for the number of marks raised. So if you have an average rise from 20% to 50%, you get rewarded just like the person who raises them from 65% to 95%." But this ignores the fact that 1) it's exponentially harder to get each mark the higher you get, and 2) a teacher working with really disadvantaged kids (for whom each mark won deserves a George Cross) or enrichment kids (who are already on 95%, where else can they go?) is disadvantaged.
What we do instead is better. We've had an academic review produce a document of the seven elements of good teaching (which has been agreed to by teaching peak bodies), and each element is broken down into a number of standards. We've mapped out what is expected of a beginning teacher, a competent teacher and an experienced teacher in each standard. To be moved up a pay grade (from beginning to competent, and from competent to experienced) you have to satisfy the Teacher Accreditation Authority that your teaching content, practice and commitment is in line with the standards (enclosed here if you want all the info!) by the suggested evidence.
Putting the stuff together for my Experienced Teacher qualification was a big job - when I'd bound the book, I remember showing a class and pointing out that they'd better not complain about how much work an assignment is . . .
_________________
| Morkonan wrote: |
What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)
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Morkonan
Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 1387 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 10:13 Post subject: |
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Interesting, but 'tis poo, nonetheless... For instance:
| Quote: |
| ...What we mean, then, by "economic success" is minimally something like this: an economic system that is sufficiently and properly motivating to be sufficiently efficient to produce at least some modicum of wealth, but which is at the same time just. In practical terms, it cannot be just if it results in grossly disparate incomes because great concentrations of wealth in the hands of a few invariably lead to political corruption. Furthermore, no credible, moral rationale for enormous differences in compensation has ever been advanced. ... |
My, a lot of unfounded and unquantifiable assumptions here. There have to be, because the premise is filled with poo and the odor is difficult to mask, otherwise. "Just" in regards to what measure? Concentrations of wealth invariably leads to political corruption? No moral rationale for enormous differences in compensation (for what, I wonder) has ever been advanced? Gee.. That's a lot of.. poo.
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| ...We have now seen that nearly all definitions of capitalism, socialism, and communism are grossly misleading and confusing. ... |
That depends on the definition one uses... If one intentionally confuse the definition in one's essay, of course it will appear confusing. But, if other people run around with the wrong definition in their heads, that doesn't mean that the foundations of each of those economic policies is "confusing." It simply means that some people are confused. For myself, I am not confused.
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| ...Finally, we have pointed the way to a better economic system (genuine socialism) strengthened by a better core institution, the Mondragon cooperative or worker-controlled ESOP. .. |
Ah, now we get to it - The workers control the means of production. Simply stated, simply evidenced and doesn't require a drawn out essay in order to attempt to convince someone that "progressiveness" is "socialism." Socialism, in itself, isn't a bad thing. It's just an idea. Unfortunately, the idea of socialism has been implemented badly, just about everywhere.
Now, with the system the essay champions, I'll give an example of why I believe it is "wrongheaded."
I start a business. Most of the employment in the United States is done by small and medium sized businesses and most of those have been started by individuals and small groups of people.
My business does well and begins to grow. But, as with any business, there are lean times, hard times as well as good times. But, it takes a lot of work to keep a business operating and business owners and principles sacrifice a great deal of their own lives towards pushing their business forwards. I work, very hard, for decades, slowly building up my business and hiring new employees. In order to attract the best employees, I get smart and start offering compensation plans, insurance and even profit sharing. Because of this, I am able to attract the best workers and, thus, gain an advantage over the competition.
Still, I have to make sacrifices. I work, just like any other principles in my company, 60 hours a week or more. I don't go on many vacations with my family, miss important events and, generally, risk a heart-attack every day.. But, the business continues to grow and my labor begins to pay off. After decades of hard work, personal sacrifice and exposure to very real, personal financial risk, my business blooms from a one-man shop to a large concern that is ready to make the leap from Small Business to Big Business. I hire my 100'th employee and deposit the last dollar of 10 million in revenue. (Or, whatever the current limit is.)
The next day, my secretary tells me there are some men in suites with badges here to see me... I panic, but realize everything is as it should be - The bills are paid, OSHA is happy, the EPA is fine, DOT doesn't bother me, the IRS happily cashes my checks and I have done nothing illegal. Hmm, I wonder who these guys are? I tell her to let them in..
"Hello, Mr. Morkonan. We are from the Government and are here to help."
"Great! It's good to meet you. What can I do for you?"
"Well, first off, you have now moved out of the protective sphere our Progressive Government grants to Small Businesses. We are here to inform you that you must now abide with additional regulations."
"Uh, OK. What are those?"
"Well, now you must turn over your business to your workers."
"Huh? What do you mean?"
"It's time to get with the program, Mr. Morkonan! Your workers deserve a just and fair wage and should also be able to direct their own future!"
"But, I pay them more than anyone else in the industry. I give them profit sharing plans, insurance, baby-sitting and college scholarship opportunities and retraining incentives. We have employee recommendation meetings every month and a great safety council. In fact, making sure my employees have a stable job, are rewarded well for their labor and have a voice in the operations of our business ensure me that I have a competitive edge over my competition!"
"Sorry, Mr. Morkonan. But, you see, that is not enough. Your workers must now control your business and its future."
"But, I put my life into this. Without me, they wouldn't have a job! Many of them haven't the faintest idea how to do more than the job they already do! Even management doesn't have my rolodex and my contact lists that have enabled me to take advantage of all of my resources to make this business what it is today! Why? Why do I now have to give up control of that which I built?"
"Well, we understand that you can't possibly be very intelligent, Mr. Morkonan, since you are so lazy in benefiting from all the work of others. So, we will explain it to you - The only fair economy is one that is fair to everyone, regardless of the value of the labor that they put into it."
"Oh..."
"Yes, see? Now, don't you feel better, knowing that everything is fair?"
"No. Now I wonder why I sacrificed and worked so hard all my life to create something of value."
Oh, don't be so grumpy! After all, this is e-c-o-n-o-m-i-c-s we're talking about. It's about having the best economic solution for everyone! I realize you can't be too smart, if you didn't figure that out. So, what do you think, now that you've heard it?"
"I think that if everything and everyone is equal and there is absolutely no disparity in the value of anything, then there aren't any e-c-o-n-o-m-i-c-s involved..."
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Morkonan
Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 1387 on topic
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 10:26 Post subject: |
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| Usenko wrote: |
| ... To be moved up a pay grade (from beginning to competent, and from competent to experienced) you have to satisfy the Teacher Accreditation Authority that your teaching content, practice and commitment is in line with the standards (enclosed here if you want all the info!) by the suggested evidence... |
Absolutely, I want the info! Downloaded for perusal at my earliest convenience. (Probably tomorrow.)
Tenure is a sore subject, here. Once a teacher attains it, it's very difficult to get rid of them. Teacher's Unions don't help the matter, either. Now, I do agree that a teacher puts in a heck of a lot of time and their experience is critical to the education process. They should receive some sort of assurance of stability in their job that isn't always directly effected by the performance of their students. Hey, not every group of kids is going to have the same potential, no matter what you do.
But, a bad teacher is a risk that a school can not afford, since it goes directly against their Mission Statement. (Well, if they're actually concerned with mentioning "Education" in their Mission Statement.) Bad teachers are just like bad employees or bad contractors. Either you "fix" them or your "fire" them. There is no other option.
Teachers have to maintain their certificates, have to attain continuing education classes every once-in-awhile and have to stay abreast of new developments in their chosen discipline. But, the success of a teacher's efforts in those areas are almost impossible to gauge.
I guess it comes down to this - We have a reluctance to "test" our teachers and establish quality-based performance standards. That reluctance shows when we compare our student's performance internationally...
(I'll read the pdf and get back to you, on that.)
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Tracker001
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 838 on topic
Location: The Cave
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| Posted: Wed, 14. Mar 12, 10:51 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| 1) What is your opinion on "tenure" programs for teachers? |
If you thought your teacher was to tough or couldn't teach thier way out of a wet paper bag . Just wait until you get a boss .He or she doesn't have Tenure .
@ Morkonan .
| Quote: |
| Interesting, but 'tis poo, nonetheless... For instance: |
Agree ! One thing is that a true conservative capitlalist is going to teach friday how to fish not just give friday a fish throughout time in memorial .
Why ? Because the conservitive realizes that once Friday learns to fish , they can pool the knowlage and Effort becomeing more productive . Thus makeing a profit for both .
I did notice how conservative changed to Corporate Capitalism with out much fan fair . Corporate Capitalism is to me Communistic the same way the politco is .
Edit :
""Ah, now we get to it - The workers control the means of production.""
SHowing up for work-a-day world and work efficiently or is this the day for the slow down ???? 
>> Stock options ??? BONUSES ???
Oh ya , once the general workers get controling intrest in a company , they find out all the regulations the company has to abide by . Also there is not and endless supply of cash .
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I never saw a wild thing feel sorry for itself. A small bird will drop frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself.
David Herbert Lawrence |
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