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| What would you prefer? |
| I like the idea to fly only one kind of ship and be able to upgrade it. |
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37% |
[ 416 ] |
| I like to be able to buy and fly any ships like the old days |
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62% |
[ 695 ] |
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| Total Votes : 1111 |
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Al Zheimer
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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 Posted: Thu, 1. Mar 12, 23:28 Post subject: |
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| Chris0132 wrote: |
| Your poll wording is far from unbiased. |
This.
We will still be piloting different ships. The game simply won't "kill" you if the ship gets destroyed, because you're piloting those ships via remote control. That's all "drone" means - an unmanned ship. You're still piloting it, and there will still be several different models, with different abilities and different handling. Plus you get a "mothership" that you can walk around and customise. How is that bad?
In other words, the poll options should be:
1. I like the idea of staying in a customisable mothership from where I can launch and control other ships.
2. I prefer to have no mothership and die whenever the ship I'm controlling gets destroyed.
The main point of this change is to handle mission failure in a different way. Instead of dying and reloading, you will just have to launch a second ship (costing you money, resources, time to build, etc.).
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Nanook
Moderator (English)
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 22504 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
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| Posted: Thu, 1. Mar 12, 23:43 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| Chris0132 wrote: |
| Your poll wording is far from unbiased. |
This.
We will still be piloting different ships. The game simply won't "kill" you if the ship gets destroyed, because you're piloting those ships via remote control. That's all "drone" means - an unmanned ship. You're still piloting it, and there will still be several different models, with different abilities and different handling. Plus you get a "mothership" that you can walk around and customise. How is that bad?
In other words, the poll options should be:
1. I like the idea of staying in a customisable mothership from where I can launch and control other ships.
2. I prefer to have no mothership and die whenever the ship I'm controlling gets destroyed.... |
And that's not biased??? As for the wording of the poll, it's actually quite accurate. There's a big difference between 'flying' as the poll says, and 'piloting' a ship. If you don't know the difference, I'd suggest talking to a real fighter jock and ask him about it. 
_________________
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Al Zheimer
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 01:14 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| There's a big difference between 'flying' as the poll says, and 'piloting' a ship. |
I'm pretty sure that, in both cases, I'll be at home, sitting in front of a screen, looking at images being rendered by my computer. And there's a pretty big difference between that (a game) and actually piloting a real spaceship (which is incredibly boring). BTW, technically you can't "fly" a spaceship; there's no air in space.
And I'm also pretty sure that, when playing Rebirth, you'll be free to pretend that you "died" and reload a saved game every time your unmanned ships are destroyed. I'm not sure what you think that adds to the game, but hey, I don't really care.
The fact is, the change from "piloting a ship" to "remotely controlling a ship" is purely conceptual. You'll still be able to get a 1st person view from the ship you're controlling and you'll still be in control of that ship in real time; the only difference is you won't "die" and reload when the ship gets destroyed.
Now, the important questions are: What types of unmanned ships will Rebirth include? How customisable are they? How responsive are the controls? How intuitive is the user interface? Etc., etc., etc....
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Jumee
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 2145 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 01:50 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
The fact is, the change from "piloting a ship" to "remotely controlling a ship" is purely conceptual. You'll still be able to get a 1st person view from the ship you're controlling and you'll still be in control of that ship in real time; the only difference is you won't "die" and reload when the ship gets destroyed. |
you keep saying ship, but for now we only know that we can remote pilot drones  but nevermind that everyone here assumes that we can remote control any ship even though I do not remember seeing anyone from Egosoft say that nor do I remember it being said or written in any of the stickies
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Al Zheimer
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 02:17 Post subject: |
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| Jumee wrote: |
| you keep saying ship, but for now we only know that we can remote pilot drones |
Drone = Unmanned ship
From the (relative) safety of your capital ship, you grab your joystick (or whatever), put on your virtual reality goggles, and you're now "inside" the unmanned ship, which you can control just as you controlled small ships in previous games. The difference is, if you die, you can just launch another drone instead of reloading a previous save.
And since they are unmanned, there isn't even a "realism requirement" for the ships to have cockpits or life-support systems, which means Egosoft would be free to do any ship design they want (ex., microscopic ships for spying missions, kamikaze torpedo ships designed to fly into the engine of enemy capital ships, etc.).
Capital ships (which are not much fun to "pilot", since they turn very slowly, etc.) will be controlled through a bridge, where you just set destinations, etc.. Possibly, you'll also be able to control individual turrets, but it's probably more fun to launch some drones instead.
This is mentioned in the Rebirth announcement and was mentioned in several interviews, but people just read "drone", assume "oh, no, every ship will now be a gray box controlled by AI!" (as if Egosoft would be that stupid) and start ranting.
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=306576
Last edited by Al Zheimer on Fri, 2. Mar 12, 02:27; edited 1 time in total |
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Nanook
Moderator (English)
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 22504 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 02:21 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| Nanook wrote: |
| There's a big difference between 'flying' as the poll says, and 'piloting' a ship. |
I'm pretty sure that, in both cases, I'll be at home, sitting in front of a screen, looking at images being rendered by my computer. And there's a pretty big difference between that (a game) and actually piloting a real spaceship (which is incredibly boring). BTW, technically you can't "fly" a spaceship; there's no air in space..... |
Now you're just being ridiculous. You know what I meant. 
_________________
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Al Zheimer
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 02:30 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| Now you're just being ridiculous. You know what I meant. |
No, I don't.
In both cases, what I'm seeing is already a "virtual reality" view from inside a ship that doesn't really exist in my universe. It makes absolutely no difference if the game tells me that I'm seeing that (virtual) 1st person view through the eyes of my in-game avatar or through a camera mounted on an unmanned ship.
The end result is exactly the same: a 1st person view from inside the ship gets rendered on my computer's screen, and I control that ship.
If the new system saves me the trouble of reloading when the ship is destroyed, adds new kinds of ships (like microsocopic ships or kamikaze ships) and makes storytelling easier (because the developers don't need to constantly worry about dealing with player death - and can even make "suicide missions" part of the plot), so much the better.
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Jumee
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 2145 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 02:46 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| Nanook wrote: |
| Now you're just being ridiculous. You know what I meant. |
No, I don't.
In both cases, what I'm seeing is already a "virtual reality" view from inside a ship that doesn't really exist in my universe. It makes absolutely no difference if the game tells me that I'm seeing that (virtual) 1st person view through the eyes of my in-game avatar or through a camera mounted on an unmanned ship.
The end result is exactly the same: a 1st person view from inside the ship gets rendered on my computer's screen, and I control that ship.
If the new system saves me the trouble of reloading when the ship is destroyed, adds new kinds of ships (like microsocopic ships or kamikaze ships) and makes storytelling easier (because the developers don't need to constantly worry about dealing with player death - and can even make "suicide missions" part of the plot), so much the better. |
drones do not (from the pics and description since we dont have any actually confirmed information) appear to be ships, they seem to be highly-specialized, well, drones, meaning that there is a torpedo drone, freight drone, etc there is no "ship" drone, it does not look like they are M3+, you carry in your hangar and hop into when you get tired of capital class combat, so no flying a drone does not seem to be the same as flying a ship
also, the lack of risk (you dying when your ship blows up) makes things like attack runs on capitals in a fighter (oh sorry a drone) kinda pointless there is no risk you are not going to "die"
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Al Zheimer
Joined: 29 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 03:12 Post subject: |
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| Jumee wrote: |
| also, the lack of risk (you dying when your ship blows up) makes things like attack runs on capitals in a fighter (oh sorry a drone) kinda pointless there is no risk you are not going to "die" |
So I take it you never save your game or reload old saves? Guess what, there's never any risk. It's a game!
They can punish you for "dying" by forcing you to reload or they can punish you for "dying" by forcing you to spend credits building a new ship and spend time travelling back to the mission destination. One of those solutions takes you out of the game universe, the other keeps you in the game universe.
You're still free to reload a saved game each time one of your unmanned ships dies, if you think that makes the game more enjoyable. Personally, I much prefer a solution that keeps me in the game universe.
| Quote: |
| drones do not (from the pics and description since we dont have any actually confirmed information) appear to be ships |
Really? And how do you decide what "appears" and doesn't "appear" to be a "spaceship" ? The torpedo drone even seems to have a little cockpit at the top:
http://www.egosoft.com/games/x_rebirth/features/Drones1_Torpedo1.jpg
That doesn't look like a spaceship? What does it look like, then? If the text at the top said "M3+ Gunship" you'd be posting about "how cool that new ship looks"...
I wish Egosoft would just start referring to the drones as "RACS" (Remotely or Autonomously Controlled Spaceships) or something like that. It would make absolutely no difference to the game, but it would (hopefully) make some of the whiners give it a rest. Then again, some might see "autonomously" and assume they'd be forced to turn the auto-pilot on or something...
Last edited by Al Zheimer on Fri, 2. Mar 12, 03:39; edited 3 times in total |
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Jumee
Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 2145 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 03:16 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| Jumee wrote: |
| also, the lack of risk (you dying when your ship blows up) makes things like attack runs on capitals in a fighter (oh sorry a drone) kinda pointless there is no risk you are not going to "die" |
So I take it you never save your game or reload old saves? /sigh... |
only when I die, when I loose an asset - almost never, I played this game for quite some time now, so it is not challenging enough if you reload every time you loose something also I like carrier based combat - do I have to tell you how often stuff dies when you do that
| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| It's a game! |
the argument its a game can justify anything, absolutely anything 
Also, none of this changes the fact that drones do not appear to be ships, and that we are still stuck in one ship through the game (not that its absolutely game breaking or something but still)
EDIT: the lack of risk is only a minor side-effect issue, the main problem everyone has appears to be being tied to one ship
ships are generally more "versatile" (of course there are very "narrow" classes - M7M and M - an M3 can be a light-medium bomber, or a dog-fighter, or a corvette-hunter all in one ship, of course there are fighters that are better in one specific role, but there are a lot of fighters that can fill most if not all of these
Last edited by Jumee on Fri, 2. Mar 12, 03:29; edited 2 times in total |
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Mightysword
Joined: 10 Mar 2004
Posts: 1933 on topic
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 03:19 Post subject: |
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And it adds the fact that now I can have the option of biting my loss and move one, whether previously there is no choice but reloading. So from that respective I would even argue the VR system actually have more risk and cost involved in a "tangible" manner.
Of course if you're the type who will reload at the smallest mistake until you get it perfectly, the difference between the two is non-existence and the risk argument is moot.
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Nanook
Moderator (English)
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 22504 on topic
Location: In the X-Universe spanning two millenia
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| Posted: Fri, 2. Mar 12, 19:29 Post subject: |
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| Al Zheimer wrote: |
| Jumee wrote: |
| also, the lack of risk (you dying when your ship blows up) makes things like attack runs on capitals in a fighter (oh sorry a drone) kinda pointless there is no risk you are not going to "die" |
So I take it you never save your game or reload old saves? Guess what, there's never any risk. It's a game!
They can punish you for "dying" by forcing you to reload or they can punish you for "dying" by forcing you to spend credits building a new ship and spend time travelling back to the mission destination. One of those solutions takes you out of the game universe, the other keeps you in the game universe. |
One of these solutions can give you a real adrenaline rush, and the other just a hohum, another blown up drone to replace. Money has never been an issue in these games after the initial few hours. Perhaps you never get that rush, or perhaps you don't enjoy getting it. But many players do, judging from the popularity of the Suicidal Squid start in TC and AP. I suspect a lot of those players will find the no-risk, non-dying aspect of drone flying to get a bit boring after a while.
_________________
Having an Acronym Attack? See the Ego FAQ. Also now for Terran Conflict. |
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Slashman
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1280 on topic
Location: Barbados
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| Posted: Sat, 3. Mar 12, 02:38 Post subject: |
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| Nanook wrote: |
| One of these solutions can give you a real adrenaline rush, and the other just a hohum, another blown up drone to replace. Money has never been an issue in these games after the initial few hours. Perhaps you never get that rush, or perhaps you don't enjoy getting it. But many players do, judging from the popularity of the Suicidal Squid start in TC and AP. I suspect a lot of those players will find the no-risk, non-dying aspect of drone flying to get a bit boring after a while. |
This is my fear as well.
Of course, they could be holding back major information and maybe drones have downsides that we can't see.
I can see it working if certain things are done, but I have no way of knowing if Egosoft are even thinking along these lines.
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NUKLEAR-SLUG
Joined: 04 May 2006
Posts: 2265 on topic
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| Posted: Sat, 3. Mar 12, 13:48 Post subject: |
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Maybe they won't just drown us in money and the loss of an asset might actually sting a bit.
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Slashman
Joined: 12 Oct 2010
Posts: 1280 on topic
Location: Barbados
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| Posted: Sat, 3. Mar 12, 19:52 Post subject: |
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| NUKLEAR-SLUG wrote: |
| Maybe they won't just drown us in money and the loss of an asset might actually sting a bit. |
Monetary consequences shouldn't be the only thing governing the use of drones.
Things like enemies tracing your control signal and targeting the drone controller(your real ship) should be implemented. Also, can you just jump from drone to drone with no delay and no setup time?
If the high level drones are plentiful, then money is the only thing that would make losing one a pain.
There are ways this could be made interesting, but it would depend on well-designed enemy AI, a fairly deep economic model and the developers actual desire to still make it so that players can die(I don't think this should be removed or greatly diminished).
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