[SCR] MARS Fire Control (v5.25 - 16.02.13)

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irR4tiOn4L
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Post by irR4tiOn4L »

I will rethink how i envisage this working. A toggle is seeming a little cumbersome and stupid on second thought. Weve already got a retreat so an 'emergency dock' might suffice. But then again, being able to set a ship to ignore fighter drones (except for its turret) might be useful
Gazz wrote:
irR4tiOn4L wrote:As long as they agree a simple interface is good for them :wink:
That's a sensible compromise, I guess.
They had better like it my way. Or else.
Lol humans love to oscillate between doing good and being DOWNRIGHT BAD!! :twisted:
Gazz wrote:Going down that road you arrive at AEGIS. I'm sure you can still find the thread...

CODEA is currently starting to become an example of that
Were you referring to the AEGIS addon from X2, and the complaints about price? I always thought that script did more than it should have, adding gunners etc
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz »

irR4tiOn4L wrote:I will rethink how i envisage this working. A toggle is seeming a little cumbersome and stupid on second thought.
Hehe. The feature alone can be cool as heck but if it's cumbersome to use or takes a lot of micromanagement, it's not very helpful when you need it.

Oh, and instead of a dedicated configuration/command you could also attach a preload script to the regular RTB which assesses the situation and offers/dictates/configures the override priority based on the current situation.
This can be great because the "stock command" acts smarter without any kind of extra interface and it can be abysmal if it doesn't make the right choice.
There are so many ways to build an interface with countless degrees of configurability and micromanagement.

Awell. More planning. =)

irR4tiOn4L wrote:Were you referring to the AEGIS addon from X2, and the complaints about price? I always thought that script did more than it should have, adding gunners etc
The price is just a number. That can be changed. I was referring to the functional principle which is the "classic" turret script template - with more conditions.
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Geneoce
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Post by Geneoce »

Hey Gazz.

I'm having a bit of trouble getting your OOS combat rebalancer and MARS scripts compatible with Cmod. SS_T released a pair of compatibility tfiles which I downloaded and installed. From what i've read a line needs to be added to the 7047 files, This one I think:
<page id="7047">
<t id="6422101">MARS(This ID is queried to determine if the TFile is present and readable by X3.)</t>


I think MARS is working to an extent, an error message does not display, but the OOS combat rebalancer remains stubbornly off :evil:

My experiences with scripting is negligible. I havent found a step by step guide and would like some assistance, if you have time to spare :)
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz »

Yeah. The whole line with "MARS" needs to be added right below the existing Page ID line in the file.

But there are up to 3 files 7047 in the T folder so you better do it in all 3 - just to be safe.
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irR4tiOn4L
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Post by irR4tiOn4L »

Ive tried MARS on a Panther now and again, it does a brilliant job! I guess its a style thing, but im not liking the turretted front guns, principally because i like to have control over the biggest guns. Which brings me to the next observation

As with the Elephant, MARS tends to squander energy reserves if i give it control over IBL's, which even on that giant power generator leads to it running out of puff quickly. It fires at fighters it has no hope of hitting with a very energy hungry gun.

This has everything to do with how MARS is geared to work; its designed to kill as quickly, and as soon as possible, not wait around to use a better gun once its in range. In essence, MARS projects its fire out as far its range allows against all threats, and hamstrings itself in the process.

In the Panther this meant i set up the front turret not to use MARS but left it on no command, and 'attack target' when i had a high value target in mind (which often didnt stop it shooting at other targets anyway, stupid default script). In a Tiger i might get around this by putting all my IBL's in the front guns.

The Shrike really is a showcase for MARS because it uses a big gun that can keep firing even when the ship has failed to manage energy effectively; but in most other M7's overusing big guns is still a problem, just like on the Elephant


So what do i think would solve the problem? Well, short of changing MARS's priority, not much. The player can intervene to alleviate the issue a bit, but not always, as MARS is very hard-headed about using any gun in the cargo bay. Hiding guns in onboard fighters is probably not the way to go.

MARS could be given a mode that tends to evaluate threats and proportionate responses more correctly by a convenient workaround; it will be noted that most guns scale upward in range as well as the class of ship that can mount them. So capital ship weapons are mountable by capital ships and outrange M6 class weapons, which are mountable by M6 and outrange M3, etc. It will also be noted that you dont want a capital class ship weapon firing on an M3 JUST BECAUSE it cant reach that M3 with a better weapon (ie, if IBL and CIG have equal range MARS will be very power efficient, using whichever is best; but if IBL is longer range, there is a window where it will only fire IBL). So in a sense, the problem is the different weapon ranges lead MARS to use the heaviest weapons on all targets outside of the range of lighter ones, regardless of threat, when in most situations it would be better if it just waited for that threat to move into range of lighter guns

How can MARS evaluate when a 'threat' is a pitiful fighter that it could wait to get into range of smaller guns, or a dangerous foe like another capital ship or an M6 that it should start firing at with long range guns? Well, it could have a threat evaluation added with class and ship recognition etc, or it could use the existing stuff it does with 'laser banks' to figure it out; but both options arent simple, elegant or easy to code.

However, lets stop and think at this point; assuming you are not trying to project power (ie kill a target with everything youve got regardless the tactical situation it will leave you in, what MARS does now), but are trying to eliminate threats as efficiently as possible to maximise your tactical state in readiness for the next, then you must prioritise threats. But what exactly is a 'threat'?

Well when you think about it, in a rudimentary sense if it isnt firing at you or isnt about to fire at you, it isnt a threat at all, is it! Its just a target. Very simply, MARS would make the right choices most of the time if it followed a very simple rule; only fire on an enemy once it is in range of firing on you.

What would this do? Well, M6's would be fired on with medium-range weapons, cap-ships with anti-cap ship, M5's with short range anti-fighter weapons. How to tell when something can fire at you? Well the simplest way is if it IS firing at you! Its not a perfect way of doing things, but its better than agressively firing at everything.


Now it seems that MARS defence might just be perfect for this, and require absolutely no modification at all while fighting much more energy efficiently. So ill give it a shot and report back if that solves my issues with the Elephant etc. Im thinking it will depend on how quickly MARS defence stops firing on a target that fired upon the ship but has left range and isnt firing. Sorry to subject you to the long post, i wanted to detail my thinking here
irR4tiOn4L
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Post by irR4tiOn4L »

Alas, no, MARS defence did not act as i had hoped and fire on a target only once fired upon. It still attempted to very aggressively destroy all near targets, even if that meant firing IBL for 5 seconds at the extremity of its range to no effect before swatting the fighter with a lighter weapon; and running out of puff long before it met the M6's i REALLY wanted it to use the laser banks on.

Not sure what to think at this point. The most elegant solution to me seems to have MARS on 'MARS defence' or even a more conservative 'MARS Energy Cons.' fire ONLY on targets that are able to fire back; probably the easiest way to do that is for it to only fire on targets that have shot at the target ship within the near past, and fire at them into the near future (the time window can be set at whatever seems best). This would have the practical effect of having MARS choose the most energy efficient gun to engage with most of the time.

The most advanced option would of course be to have MARS evaluate hit probability and shield strength as well as target threat, and fire calculated volleys appropriate to the target and its threat level. But lets get back to the real world now.

MARS is just fine the way it is. Its ridiculously more effective than the default turret scripts. Its a very fine piece of work, and i do not intend in the least to suggest you should change anything at all or do extra work. But if you are looking for constructive advice, a more energy efficient MARS that follows the rule 'fire only when it can fire upon you' (or in practise, when it HAS fired upon you, because this is much easier to script) might be something to consider
chrisrico
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Post by chrisrico »

Gazz, I have to agree. I love MARS to death, but sometimes it just acts silly. Firing IBLs at fighters mainly. Perhaps there could be a single setting, for the "aggressiveness" of MARS, that would require it to calculate a higher percentage chance of a hit before firing on a target at lower levels of aggressiveness?
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herocrafter
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Post by herocrafter »

I like the way the Goblins' master's ship can show free space available, but when I enable this the ship upon finishing any order will send me a message from unknown--just a blank message.
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz »

Version 4.73 released.
  • Added option for carrier cargo collection to recover ships
    Manual updated accordingly.
  • Added option: Energy management damage scaling.
    At setting 50 % and 84 % laser energy an ammo laser gets a perceived damage bonus of 8 %
  • Removed audio message for "Laser not available".
    It is now a subtitle message.

    What exactly caused the sound bug with that (for some players only...) will now remain an unsolved mystery.
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Thrandisher
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Post by Thrandisher »

Gazz wrote:Goblins getting coffee for the player is not planned before v5.00.
Oh god, were getting close to 5.00!
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kelmen
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Post by kelmen »

i'm using cmod3

is MARS t files compatible with the cmod3, or i should t files provided by comd3?
Thrandisher
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Post by Thrandisher »

It is compatable if you change the weapon range.

http://www.eutharan.com/ulfius/CMOD_3/M ... 0v1.03.rar

You will need that file, and you will have to change the top few lines of the file, 7047-L044.xml (if your useing english).

I believe you will want to replace this

Code: Select all

<language id="44">

<page id="7047">
<t id="9909">-------------------------------------------------------</t>
<t id="9909"> MARS FIRE CONTROL  </t>
<t id="9909">-------------------------------------------------------</t>
<t id="9910"> USER CONFIGURABLE OPTIONS </t>
<t id="9910"> MARS *automatically* skips indices that do not exist in the text file,
              not overwriting internal values. </t>
with this

Code: Select all

<page id="7047">
 <t id="9909"> This ID is queried to determine if the TFile is present and readable by X3 : </t>
 <t id="6422101">MARS</t>

 <t id="9909"> This LINE is displayed on the MARS Menu (config) so the user can
 				  confirm that the RIGHT TFile has been loaded and whodunit. </t>
 <t id="6422102">(5 spaces for formatting)     vanilla X3 v2.1   \(Gazz\)</t>
If im wrong, soemone correct me, as ive been up all night playing guitar hero 5 and jsut was checking mail before passing out in a coma like sleep.
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Mack 10
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Post by Mack 10 »

MOstly righ wlthough I'd change the "vanilla x3 v2.1" to something more descriptive (i.e. "CMOD3 V1.03 X3 2.1") that way if when you do a debug for wo ever wrote the script they'll know your using a custom script withit which will probably help.
hawat
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Post by hawat »

I have installed mars mostly to be able to use the oos rebalance mod but even though I have disabled it in artificial life setting, it seems to have an effect on ai ships.

I was boarding a bunch of akuma with an m7m and boarding pods before I installed mars and the oos rebalance mod but after the installation of those mods, this made the boarding of those akuma much more difficult and costly making it not really worth the effort to board them since they shoot down so many missiles and boarding pods.

Is there any way to completely disable mars for the ai ships?
Mack 10
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Post by Mack 10 »

I'd like to edit my 7047 properties further I think for CMOD3. I have issues with Gauss cannons not firing at anything smaller than a capital ship which is relly annoying as I recon they'd cane fighters we'll.

In 7047 where I imagined I'd need to change but there is a line in there
<t id="9912">-------------------------------------------------------</t>
<t id="9912">-- Do not bother translating the actual laser data.
This data is created by an automatic export and would just be overwritten again. --</t>
It looks as though what I want to change is setting 4:
<t id="9896">04= Min ship size (m) to be attacked with this laser.</t>
Can I just change that in my 7047 file and save it or do I need to go in somewhere else to adjust this?

What data in this section is overwritten by the laser file?

Thanks,

Haydan
Alkeena
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Post by Alkeena »

Mack 10 wrote:I'd like to edit my 7047 properties further I think for CMOD3. I have issues with Gauss cannons not firing at anything smaller than a capital ship which is relly annoying as I recon they'd cane fighters we'll.

In 7047 where I imagined I'd need to change but there is a line in there
<t id="9912">-------------------------------------------------------</t>
<t id="9912">-- Do not bother translating the actual laser data.
This data is created by an automatic export and would just be overwritten again. --</t>
It looks as though what I want to change is setting 4:
<t id="9896">04= Min ship size (m) to be attacked with this laser.</t>
Can I just change that in my 7047 file and save it or do I need to go in somewhere else to adjust this?

What data in this section is overwritten by the laser file?

Thanks,

Haydan
I can't really help you, but I did want to say thank-you =)

I'm considering finally having a go with CMOD but was a bit leery of the Gauss Canon stats. Given its bullet speed and damage it looked like it would simply obliterate anything smaller than an M3 within 12km of an M2. Knowing that it won't fire on small ships is actually reassuring to know :wink:
Mack 10
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Post by Mack 10 »

We'll I changed the settings from that last post in my 7047 files (have to find out what langauge I'm using so I don't have to change them all) and it worked.

I'd have to say so far the gausse blows as an anti fighter weapon though, its pretty inaccurate when you fire it against a small ship, will give it a go against some M3's and see how that goes...
Lancefighter
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Post by Lancefighter »

Alkeena wrote:
Mack 10 wrote:I'd like to edit my 7047 properties further I think for CMOD3. I have issues with Gauss cannons not firing at anything smaller than a capital ship which is relly annoying as I recon they'd cane fighters we'll.

In 7047 where I imagined I'd need to change but there is a line in there
<t id="9912">-------------------------------------------------------</t>
<t id="9912">-- Do not bother translating the actual laser data.
This data is created by an automatic export and would just be overwritten again. --</t>
It looks as though what I want to change is setting 4:
<t id="9896">04= Min ship size (m) to be attacked with this laser.</t>
Can I just change that in my 7047 file and save it or do I need to go in somewhere else to adjust this?

What data in this section is overwritten by the laser file?

Thanks,

Haydan
I can't really help you, but I did want to say thank-you =)

I'm considering finally having a go with CMOD but was a bit leery of the Gauss Canon stats. Given its bullet speed and damage it looked like it would simply obliterate anything smaller than an M3 within 12km of an M2. Knowing that it won't fire on small ships is actually reassuring to know :wink:
ive had a few entire volleys of gauss shot at a TS:SF varient.. and not a single one hit. Gauss cannons are great, if your target is orders of magnitude larger than the broadside of the empire state building, but tbh anything smaller.. kinda useless.
A seemingly useful question:

Gazz, turrets seem to still shoot at the turrets of the opponents ship - is it possible through scripting to change this? to be honest, it would be nice if my turrets could actually HIT that oddy they are shooting at.. Granted the oddy has a damn fine profile, my guns still seem to shoot too high (gauss equipped here)
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz »

Lancefighter wrote:Gazz, turrets seem to still shoot at the turrets of the opponents ship - is it possible through scripting to change this?
No.

hawat wrote:I installed mars and the oos rebalance mod but after the installation of those mods, this made the boarding of those akuma much more difficult and costly

Is there any way to completely disable mars for the ai ships?
MARS is not enabled for AI ships by default but you may still want to... read the first page here.
My complete script download page. . . . . . I AM THE LAW!
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hawat
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Post by hawat »

I tried it once after I had to install it for the oos mod but I'd rather keep my game as fast as possible but still with the oos rebalance so I'm not even using mars for my ships now and I dont want to use it for the ai as well, I just installed that to make oos rebalance mod work after all.
After looking a bit more it seems that it may be the missile defense mk2 thing included with mars that might be the problem.
I' ll try deleting those files and see if I can launch 20 hammer missiles and see at least one actually hit the akuma again :) as it was in vanilla x3tc.
Last edited by hawat on Mon, 7. Sep 09, 12:03, edited 1 time in total.

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