X-Tended - Terran Conflict (XTC)

[Aragon Speed]

DSE (aka enenra) has had Photoshop open again, and while he was there anyway he decided to create some nice XTC wallpaper for you all to enjoy. These come in two flavours, in 1600x1200 resolution for standard monitors, and in 1920x1080 resolution for those of you with wide screen monitors.

1600x1200:

Argon:
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Boron:
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Paranid:
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Split:
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Teladi:
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Aldrin:
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Terran:
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Xenon:
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1920x1080:

Argon:
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Boron:
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Paranid:
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Split:
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Teladi:
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Aldrin:
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Terran:
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Xenon:
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[Aragon Speed]

Added Aldrin, Terran, and Xenon wallpapers.

[Alkeena]

Nice =)

[1muvwndr]

I hope this can be done/fixed in XTM:

I am in Lucky Planets with my TL cruising for the shipyard. Now a Deimos with escorts enters the sector, heading east. I am at war with the Paranid (rank -3) but much loved by the Boron (rak +9). As soon as one of the escorting Hades comes into 30 km from my TL it starts lobbing tomahawks at it. And it blows it up. With the local Ray and Shark just watching. And with me just being an observer because I can't do anything. i mustn't do anything because the Boron then turn on me.
I'm in a Boron core sector FFS! They should do something against other races lobbing missiles at their friends in their territory! If I cannot take retributive actions then at least they should! This is piracy and if it's not tolerated on me it shouldn't be for anyone.

This happens all the time if you are at war with someone. An enemy TM will start shooting at me or my ships anytime, anywhere, as soon as it is in range, without consequences for them. They may blow up like 100 of my ships without the sector patrols even noticing it. If I attack someone, it's considered piracy, if hey attack me it's legitimate. While I can accept a lot of things that aren't perfect in the game, this one is really something that pisses me off.

[Alkeena]

I hope this can be done/fixed in XTM:

I am in Lucky Planets with my TL cruising for the shipyard. Now a Deimos with escorts enters the sector, heading east. I am at war with the Paranid (rank -3) but much loved by the Boron (rak +9). As soon as one of the escorting Hades comes into 30 km from my TL it starts lobbing tomahawks at it. And it blows it up. With the local Ray and Shark just watching. And with me just being an observer because I can't do anything. i mustn't do anything because the Boron then turn on me.
I'm in a Boron core sector FFS! They should do something against other races lobbing missiles at their friends in their territory! If I cannot take retributive actions then at least they should! This is piracy and if it's not tolerated on me it shouldn't be for anyone.

This happens all the time if you are at war with someone. An enemy TM will start shooting at me or my ships anytime, anywhere, as soon as it is in range, without consequences for them. They may blow up like 100 of my ships without the sector patrols even noticing it. If I attack someone, it's considered piracy, if hey attack me it's legitimate. While I can accept a lot of things that aren't perfect in the game, this one is really something that pisses me off.

I agree with the general premise, a few things though:

Paranid and Boron are at peace, and you are a known criminal to the Paranid--The Boron likely effectively consider it something akin to them executing an an extradition treaty against you. Truth be told you are a bad man and the Boron don't sanction privateers against the Paranid.

Contrast this vs races the Boron are clearly not on good terms with--I'm pretty sure you can waste as many split as you want in Boron sectors and there will be no reprecussions. I haven't played around with that mechanic for probably a year or two at this point though, so I could be mistaken...you might want to investigate it though. If it still holds water I would suggest hanging out in Argon Space.

For a more flexible solution, change your ships fof settings to NOT show as enemy if enemy to me (so they don't return fire on the Boron when they turn), blast the Paranid, and then apologize to the Boron police who should then turn friendly again. I'm not sure if you loose any Boron rep this way or not though...However I do know it works as I had to defend my Terran wingmen in the third mission of the Terran plot--somehow they got some split mercs after them. I took out the mercs, whole sector went red, aplogized to the argon, whole sector went blue. I had rank 2 standings at that point with Argon and it didn't change at all after hitting the mercs, so I suspect this route doesn't even impact your rep.

[1muvwndr]

I agree with the general premise, a few things though:

Paranid and Boron are at peace, and you are a known criminal to the Paranid--The Boron likely effectively consider it something akin to them executing an an extradition treaty against you. Truth be told you are a bad man and the Boron don't sanction privateers against the Paranid.

Contrast this vs races the Boron are clearly not on good terms with--I'm pretty sure you can waste as many split as you want in Boron sectors and there will be no reprecussions. I haven't played around with that mechanic for probably a year or two at this point though, so I could be mistaken...you might want to investigate it though. If it still holds water I would suggest hanging out in Argon Space.

For a more flexible solution, change your ships fof settings to NOT show as enemy if enemy to me (so they don't return fire on the Boron when they turn), blast the Paranid, and then apologize to the Boron police who should then turn friendly again. I'm not sure if you loose any Boron rep this way or not though...However I do know it works as I had to defend my Terran wingmen in the third mission of the Terran plot--somehow they got some split mercs after them. I took out the mercs, whole sector went red, aplogized to the argon, whole sector went blue. I had rank 2 standings at that point with Argon and it didn't change at all after hitting the mercs, so I suspect this route doesn't even impact your rep.

This was just an example. It happens with Argons in Paranid territory as well. But I am at peace with the Borons just like the Paranids are. But if I attack them, the Borons get angry. If they attack me the Borons let it past.
I'm not saying that the Borons should declare war on the Paranid, they need to hunt down just the offender pilot - like they are doing with me.
I just find it quite stupid that an M8 that passes by can fire barrages of Tomahawks at anyone he likes - or doesn't like (in this case my ships, even if there are 100 of them in sector). And this even if the 2 races are at war - i.e. a Paranid TM starts firing at my freighters just because they are in range and the local Argon police forces just don't mind.

The police exists just because you, random pirates, xenon and Khaak are here. They really don't mind anything else. And this is wrong IMO.

[Alkeena]

I'm not saying that the Borons should declare war on the Paranid, they need to hunt down just the offender pilot - like they are doing with me.
I just find it quite stupid that an M8 that passes by can fire barrages of Tomahawks at anyone he likes - or doesn't like (in this case my ships, even if there are 100 of them in sector). And this even if the 2 races are at war - i.e. a Paranid TM starts firing at my freighters just because they are in range and the local Argon police forces just don't mind.

The police exists just because you, random pirates, xenon and Khaak are here. They really don't mind anything else. And this is wrong IMO.

Paranid and Boron are at peace, and you are a known criminal to the Paranid--The Boron likely effectively consider it something akin to them executing an an extradition treaty against you. Truth be told you are a bad man and the Boron don't sanction privateers against the Paranid.

Even in the end game you represent a corporation of a couple thousand people. The Paranid empire represents billions to which you are a confirmed criminal.

Who would you rather be on the good side of? The Boron actions seem perfectly reasonable to me...

I can respect that that's merely a difference of opinion however, so I'll just let it rest.

[stemardue]

Just to drag the thread on topic again, among the balance reworking of the MOD there are many issues taken into account.

[1muvwndr]

Even in the end game you represent a corporation of a couple thousand people. The Paranid empire represents billions to which you are a confirmed criminal.

Who would you rather be on the good side of? The Boron actions seem perfectly reasonable to me...

I can respect that that's merely a difference of opinion however, so I'll just let it rest.

Even at the beginning of the game I'm a pilot that's part of a bigger race - just like the Paranid captain. He is not representing his whole race, he is not the Priest Duke or an ambassador, he is just a pilot.
If I am a Boron (that's got the favor of the Quen fo what it matters) in Boron territory but that's at war with someone (even if they are Split) and my ships got shot down in Boron territory by ANYONE I think it's legitimate to protest for the local government forces not doing anything about it.
My point is that just anyone can come and destroy the player's assets without being harrased by anyone. OK, I may be just a corp but OTAS, NMMC, Atreus and all other corporations DO get help from their race's government if they are attacked.

[ThisIsHarsh]

Even in the end game you represent a corporation of a couple thousand people. The Paranid empire represents billions to which you are a confirmed criminal.

Who would you rather be on the good side of? The Boron actions seem perfectly reasonable to me...

I can respect that that's merely a difference of opinion however, so I'll just let it rest.

Even at the beginning of the game I'm a pilot that's part of a bigger race - just like the Paranid captain. He is not representing his whole race, he is not the Priest Duke or an ambassador, he is just a pilot.
If I am a Boron (that's got the favor of the Quen fo what it matters) in Boron territory but that's at war with someone (even if they are Split) and my ships got shot down in Boron territory by ANYONE I think it's legitimate to protest for the local government forces not doing anything about it.
My point is that just anyone can come and destroy the player's assets without being harrased by anyone. OK, I may be just a corp but OTAS, NMMC, Atreus and all other corporations DO get help from their race's government if they are attacked.

Been following this arguement sitting on the fence, and have to say 1muvwndr has convinced me. It would make more sense to me if police stoppend any kind of violence against races they are neutral or friendly to in their sectors.

[Alkeena]

Even in the end game you represent a corporation of a couple thousand people. The Paranid empire represents billions to which you are a confirmed criminal.

Who would you rather be on the good side of? The Boron actions seem perfectly reasonable to me...

I can respect that that's merely a difference of opinion however, so I'll just let it rest.

Even at the beginning of the game I'm a pilot that's part of a bigger race - just like the Paranid captain. He is not representing his whole race, he is not the Priest Duke or an ambassador, he is just a pilot.
If I am a Boron (that's got the favor of the Quen fo what it matters) in Boron territory but that's at war with someone (even if they are Split) and my ships got shot down in Boron territory by ANYONE I think it's legitimate to protest for the local government forces not doing anything about it.

Here's the issue. In Vanilla TC no one is in a hot war, only cold wars--Split fly freely through Boron space for instance. What happens is that races will turn a blind eye towards actions against their enemies (basically as if you held a letter of marque) to allow them to wage a covert war. Thus you can murder as many split as you want (or at least used to be able to in X3:R) in Boron territory and they will do nothing. Them doing nothing is a far cry different from getting actively involved, which would be a declaration of open war effectively.

Now consider your case with the Paranid. To the Paranid you are a terrorist and an enemy of the state. Additionally the Boron neither officially nor unofficially sanction hostile acts against the Paranid--there are no letters of marque available from the Boron for privateering verse the Paranid. This means that when the Paranid send someone after you for your blatant acts of terrorism (potentially officially under the guise of some variant of an extradition treaty) naturally the Boron aren't going to intervene on your behalf and will actually shoot you for breaking the law if you shoot a lawman executing his duties.

Officially speaking, you are a terrorist that just happens to be friends with the Queen and she's not in a position to help lest she risk open warfare...She will however turn a blind eye to races she actually hates, e.g. the Split.

My point is that just anyone can come and destroy the player's assets without being harrased by anyone. OK, I may be just a corp but OTAS, NMMC, Atreus and all other corporations DO get help from their race's government if they are attacked.

The only people doing this by default are pirates, khaak, and xenon. The race fleets will protect you just as well from them as they would the other corps--just be sure to set up in a core sector.

What you have to realize is that your little war is not officially sanctioned. You are a pirate as far as most everyone is concerned. Some people just like you enough not to shoot you.

[1muvwndr]

What you have to realize is that your little war is not officially sanctioned. You are a pirate as far as most everyone is concerned. Some people just like you enough not to shoot you.

OK, so for you it's perfectly legitimate that anyone who wishes can shoot at the player and his propriety, whether he likes the player or it's just passing by and wants to let off some steam. You're saying that the player has no legal rights. He MUST be his own RACE and fight/defend accordingly, because noone will help him.
OK modders, so we have a new difficulty level where anyone, friend or foe, can shoot (and shoots) anytime at the player. If he dares to fight back all of the police and military forces turn on him. Fair enough?

Been following this arguement sitting on the fence, and have to say 1muvwndr has convinced me. It would make more sense to me if police stoppend any kind of violence against races they are neutral or friendly to in their sectors.

Thanks for the support.
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[Idea]

What you have to realize is that your little war is not officially sanctioned. You are a pirate as far as most everyone is concerned. Some people just like you enough not to shoot you.

OK, so for you it's perfectly legitimate that anyone who wishes can shoot at the player and his propriety, whether he likes the player or it's just passing by and wants to let off some steam. You're saying that the player has no legal rights. He MUST be his own RACE and fight/defend accordingly, because noone will help him.
OK modders, so we have a new difficulty level where anyone, friend or foe, can shoot (and shoots) anytime at the player. If he dares to fight back all of the police and military forces turn on him. Fair enough?

Been following this arguement sitting on the fence, and have to say 1muvwndr has convinced me. It would make more sense to me if police stoppend any kind of violence against races they are neutral or friendly to in their sectors.

Thanks for the support.
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You should look the things litlle different.By implemating what you want the 'fight role' in the game would be significantly reduced.I know it is against logic when they attack and nobody comes to your aid but if the thing were different the fight would probably be 'exported' in pirate,xenon and khaak sectors.Nobady would attack you in race sectors as they will be sanctioned by local security forces.

Yes I know it is normal what are you trying to say and I agree but it will make the game a litlle more boring

[Alkeena]

OK, so for you it's perfectly legitimate that anyone who wishes can shoot at the player and his propriety, whether he likes the player or it's just passing by and wants to let off some steam.

The only people beligerant enough to do this are enemy races: pirates, xenon, and khaak. Guess what? You are protected from these attacks. This is a strawman arguement.

In order to get one of the core races shooting you you had to have broken the law--they will not simply do it arbitratily. It is a direct consequence of your actions.

[The_Lost_Marauder]

Well, I guess we should also take a look at player rank with each race.
If I'm a "Hero of the Federation" with Argon, I suppose they will protect me if I'm in an Argon Core Sector, no matter who attacks me. On the contrary, if I'm an outlaw no surprise if nobody helps me out while some angry Paranids kick my ship.
Another point could be that you get protection from your race, but in the end you lose some reputation points because you turned worse the relationships between your race and the other one.

Theorically, a slightly different situation should occur with Terrans: since they don't exactly love Commonwealth races, I'd believe they would protect you anyway, no matter who's after you.

Sure thing, if I'm fine while staying in "Kingdom End", enemy forces could be waiting for me at "Three Worlds", ready to kick my bastu whenever I enter in that sector.

IMHO, this could add gameplay because if you have highest ranks with 3 or even 4 races, enemy forces will have bad times trying to hunt you down, because most of the X-universe likes you more than them.
But you'll have to work A LOT before achieveing such notoriety and you'll have to remember that your fleet/stations might not be as lucky as you if they are in a neutral (or even enemy) sector.

When we were discussing about possible future X game, I said that a warfare universe was possible after all, and the player himself could be the center of all.
Ok, the Cold War is over, but I bet that Splits and Borons don't get along each other as nothing ever happened, same with Argon and Paranids, Terrans and Paranids and so on.

Finally, there should be a way to "realize" if the accident was intended to or not (i.e. deliberately opening fire against neutral/friendly ship or space accident - like two cars crashing IRL - ).

[Alkeena]

Well, I guess we should also take a look at player rank with each race.
If I'm a "Hero of the Federation" with Argon, I suppose they will protect me if I'm in an Argon Core Sector, no matter who attacks me. On the contrary, if I'm an outlaw no surprise if nobody helps me out while some angry Paranids kick my ship.
Another point could be that you get protection from your race, but in the end you lose some reputation points because you turned worse the relationships between your race and the other one.

I could personally see this being reasonable. The notoriety hit would have to be pretty substantial though (you are pushing the boundaries of intergalactic warfare after all...) and so the response optional in some way (fight it out on your own, or cash in one of the favors you're owed, thus reducing your rep, and getting some help).

Theorically, a slightly different situation should occur with Terrans: since they don't exactly love Commonwealth races, I'd believe they would protect you anyway, no matter who's after you.

I'm actually pretty sure this happens anyway. At least I've witnessed Terran military obliterating commonwealth ships that strayed into Terran core sectors; the only ones that actually seem welcome are the Goners. Might have been caused by something else though.

Sure thing, if I'm fine while staying in "Kingdom End", enemy forces could be waiting for me at "Three Worlds", ready to kick my bastu whenever I enter in that sector.

IMHO, this could add gameplay because if you have highest ranks with 3 or even 4 races, enemy forces will have bad times trying to hunt you down, because most of the X-universe likes you more than them.
But you'll have to work A LOT before achieveing such notoriety and you'll have to remember that your fleet/stations might not be as lucky as you if they are in a neutral (or even enemy) sector.

From a gameplay perspective I'd be a little concerned about a snowball effect. By the time you get those rep levels you're already generally immensely powerful. Adding racial protection for everything would just make you even moreso and make it almost trivial to protect your assets...Maybe if notoriety gains from one race had a contrary effect on the notoriety of their enemies? +1 Boron rep = -1/4 Split rep? Something to make it harder to friend everybody at the same time and then just pick off the races one by one out of meglomaniacle boredom...That concept would need a lot of fine tuning though, so mieh. General idea coupled with what you said in the first section I quoted sounds interesting though.

Finally, there should be a way to "realize" if the accident was intended to or not (i.e. deliberately opening fire against neutral/friendly ship or space accident - like two cars crashing IRL - ).

Target police ship -> coms -> captain -> apologize for accident. It's already in the game and tends to work pretty well in my experience. A little too well actually considering it's possible to exploit it to turn boarding into a money printing machine.

[Madtrack]

I think it would make the universe less dull personally, there would be another reason to make alliances with races other than to buy their ships

I'm currently at rank hero of the federation with the argon, and when I comm argon ships, they tell me "hey I've seen you on the newsvids" or something to that effect, indicating that I'm pretty popular with the guys

I would tend to agree with the previous post stating that they would defend me mercilessly like I was one of their own (except from the borons maybe)

However for the alliances to have any sense, it would need to balance out with the other races, for example if the borons love me, then I can't really be friends with the split (either via a cap, or if I gain too much split reputation my boron reputation starts to drop), same with argon/paranid

So, if I get on the bad side of the split, allying with the borons would start being a very attractive option

And also, if the benefits of having a high rank are better, then having a low rank should be a lot worse than it is now, Bounty hunter start coming sooner, they may send task forces after you when you get really low (which you could use to your advantage to cause small scale wars with your allies )

EDIT : oops I saw just alkeena had posted an idea quite similar

[The_Lost_Marauder]

The idea of increase/decrease reputation with races is interesting, but there is one small problem: in X³TC there is no open war, and what most resembles cold-war isn't enough IMHO to make Split hate you if Boron loves you.
Consider the Goner: they are usually well accepted everywhere, and I quietly guess both Split and Boron have good rep with Goner.

Ehi, it's a great idea balancing reputation, but a couple of tweaks I believe should be added to balance the whole thing if the X-Universe is not at war...

[Madtrack]

The idea of increase/decrease reputation with races is interesting, but there is one small problem: in X³TC there is no open war, and what most resembles cold-war isn't enough IMHO to make Split hate you if Boron loves you.

I agree with you about the open war stuff, but it's another subject entirely

I wasn't actually suggesting that the split *Hate* you if the borons love you, you're right it wouldn't make much sense considering they're not in open war, just that they should be very wary of you since there still are a lot of tensions, if your boron rep is high, the split should definitely not sell you their advanced ships and weapons

Not everyone might like this, but I think it would make for more interesting choices to be made, you couldn't just buy the best ship in any class anymore, you would have to steal it, because for instance if your rank is high enough to buy a Ray, you wouldn't be able to buy a python or tiger (or anything bigger than an M3 with the split)

Consider the Goner: they are usually well accepted everywhere, and I quietly guess both Split and Boron have good rep with Goner.

I believe the main reason the goners are accepted everywhere is because they are peaceful, do not expand, and thus are not much of a threat to anyone

If you have a fleet of M1/M2's it's not really the same thing

[The_Lost_Marauder]

The key point is one IMO: when you have very high reputation with - example - Boron, what happens between you and the other races?

Split:
(A) your rep doesn't increase anylonger beyond a specific value
(B) your reputation reduces [how much is not important atm]
(C) nothing happens
Argon:
(A) your reputation gets a boost since Argon has great relationship with Boron [of course you must already have good rep. with them]
(B) nothing happens
Paranid:
(A) nothing happens
(B) your rep. is reduced a bit
(C) IF you rep with Argon has increased, with Paranid may get lower [for the same reason Boron-Split]
Teladi:
(A) nothing happens
(B) rep reduces a bit
Terran:
(A) nothing happens
(B) your rep. reduces a bit since other races are part of the Commonwealth

I'd like to focus on Argon situation: as we know, during the Split War, the coalitions were Boron+Argon and Split+Paranid, where Teladi were not involved at all.
So, if rep. with Boron becomes very good, what should happen with Argon? Theorically, the friend of my friend can be my friend as well (unless he's a declared enemy of my race), so I'd suppose you should get a little increase of rep. amount after all; and here the BIG question rises: what happens with Paranid? I guess the answer should be: "the same that happens with Split", what do you say?