TD's Guide to the World of Solar Power Plants! -1.4 Update-

[-TD-13-]

Q: So what kind of choice does that leave players?

A: Not much. By having SPPs make the most money and having all other factories make the same lousy profit, the player is basically forced to take the same path and make the same choices as every one else playing the game. The freedom of enterprise is completely taken away, even though this game is all about freedom and economics. You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire. Well unless you go into manual minning or capturing for a living, and never build a factory.

I'm sorry but ...............your just plain WRONG. I just don't understand why you say " You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire".
I could probally write 50 things on why you are wrong and spreading false information about this but i'll just say one. I have 83 factories and 12 of them are SPP's. I'm constantly withdrawing money from every single factory I own........and I have a lot of fun supplying the galaxy with goods other than energy.




As for other good locations for SPP's.....How could you possibly miss Akeela's Beacon? It's 450 sunlight! I have 6 Mantas sellling energy and they can't sell it fast enough. ..........nuff said

Well, I thought this might ruffle a few new feathers, even though it's the truth, but I really wasn't looking for another debate on this topic. How X2's economy works has been disscused countless times through plently of topics.... this is a well known fact.

Look, read pacific_wings post again. You may be withdrawing cash from those factories, but the initial cost, resources needed, and cycle time all limit how much you make with every factory. Sure, you may have made 100,000 with your Wheat farm, but remember that it has taken you 7 hours to do so, and that you need to keep this pace up for another 60 hours in order to make any real profit.

Because the profit margins of all of the factories is basically the opposite of the pyramid in the manual, it heavly limits the player's choices on good economical situations.

Now, you still have the freedom of choice to build wheat farms and ore mines and all the other factories. However, if your baseing your choice on smart economic decisions, and you want to make good money then SPPs are the way to go.

SPPs can make the most money, by a long shot.
SPPs can make the most money in the shortest amount of time, by a long shot.
SPPs can pay their initial costs off in the least amount of time, by a long shot.
SPPs are one of the cheapest factories you can buy.
SPPs only really need one transport, lower risk costs.
SPPs have the largest market to sell to, by a long shot.
SPPs resources always sell at a steady 1684cr, making SPPs more profitable, once again, by a long shot.

This game is about thinking and doing your best to make money. If you are a good opportunist and are out to make money, you will use SPPs. The player has no choice in what he can excell at to make decent money. The only way of making good money is using SPPs, as all other factories make the same, terrible profit and take hours and hours to pay off.

Now, with that in mind, ask yourself this. Would you want to work as an employee at a local fast food restaurant, or for a company that will pay you 100,000 a year, give you job security, and allow for the opportunity of pay raises and promotion? You have the choice to work at the fast food restaurant, but is it a good economical choice to do so?

I think what you are doing is just looking at supply and demand and thinking "Where there is a demand, there is money to be made!". In X2's current economic model, this isn't the case. Although supply and demand are a big part of the economy, it is not the entire picture.
If you're a smart player, and an opportunist, then you will end up using SPPs at the forefront of your empire.

The best advice I can give you is read pacific_wing's quote again, and check these topics for more info:
X2's broken Economy
Giskard's Factory Information (the first debate)

Oh, and as for Akeelas beacon, I'll check into it.
By the way.... it's not a very good idea to have 6 manta's selling your energy.... your actually making a lot less then what you think you are making. A lot less. For more info on 450% sunlight and why having multiple selling ships is a bad idea, check out the original post.

[Gaderath]

i have never heard anyone mention this as a good SPP location, but it earns more than my kingdom end SPP. i loose a manta every so often, but it still makes more money than many other places i have tried. Siezewell in Teladi space.if i leave the game run for a few hours, the Siezewell SPP usually has 50-100k MORE than my kingdom end. however, in the course of over a week of game time, i have lost mantas twice, usually by khaak M3s in spaceweed drift. but i figure, even if i play to replace these mantas, i am still making as much as in kingdom end, or close to it.

[Darshu]

There is just one flaw in your reasoning TD, and that's cost vs. convenience.

I am talking specifically about equipping ships. Lets say you have a brand new Argon Titan.

To fully equip it with PPCs, you need 9 GPPC, 6 BPPC, and 3 APPC.

Now seeing as how ALL high end weapon fabs seem to only be able to stock between 2 and 4 of the specific weapon at ANY time, and these stock usually are zero, is it wrong to setup a chain for these types of wares so that the convenience of being able to buy a new ship, then immediately equip it without searching 100 sectors looking for the last weapon?

I mean, it takes 20 hours to construct a GPPC! If you rely on NPC weapon fabs, that's 180 hours of gametime just to get the main weapons online. And that's IF you can get the NPC fabs to ever have any stock.

So while "secondary resource" fabs are pretty useless, high end finished fabs seem to be very useful. USEFUL being the key word. They may never make any profit, but if you can get free equipment, what's the difference?

So as an example, you could have a Drone fab pumping out drones to stick on your TPs, a 25MW shield fab for continually upgrading your Manta S to full shielding, and so on and so forth.

[-TD-13-]

*Updated*

New Solar Power Plant locations have been added, including Seizewell! I'm going to look at Akeela's Beacon next.


Happy Profitsss!

[Dscaper]

There is just one flaw in your reasoning TD, and that's cost vs. convenience.

Not quite sure if it's a flaw... it's what Egosoft and other software houses would call a "feature".

Both of you are right, it's just that the end results that you're providing are both different. TD is advocating the usage of SPP's for returning cash at the fastest possible rate, whilst you're taking the route of relaying the SPP for Taiho Positronic Innovations. *cough* honestly *cough*

What you are bringing into question is what do you do with all the money that SPPs can raise. Slightly different ending, but equally (if not more so) valid and correct.

We all have to face the fact that people will want to play X2 in different ways. Some people will think short-term and raid the SPPs to fill their coffers, whilst some will look long-term and use SPPs to fill the gaps in their equipment racks.

In effect, this thread needs glueing together with the Advanced Factory Management thread (by Reven I believe), then it would give players both a good option for getting some cash together, whilst at the same time teaching them to look long-term at where they want to be.

[IvanT]

Just wanted to say a big Thanks for that tutorial., will help a lot of people., and even give some of us seasoned vets an idea or two!

Keep it up.!
-Ivan

[Xocyll]

Q: So what kind of choice does that leave players?

A: Not much. By having SPPs make the most money and having all other factories make the same lousy profit, the player is basically forced to take the same path and make the same choices as every one else playing the game. The freedom of enterprise is completely taken away, even though this game is all about freedom and economics. You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire. Well unless you go into manual minning or capturing for a living, and never build a factory.

I'm sorry but ...............your just plain WRONG. I just don't understand why you say " You’re basically always stuck building a SPP empire".
I could probally write 50 things on why you are wrong and spreading false information about this but i'll just say one. I have 83 factories and 12 of them are SPP's. I'm constantly withdrawing money from every single factory I own........and I have a lot of fun supplying the galaxy with goods other than energy.

To put this in the simplest possible terms, there's profits and then there's PROFITS.

Any factory in X2 will turn a profit.

The difference is, most of them turn the kind of profit that will pay your mortgage, buy you a new car every year and pay for your kids' college funds.

The SPPs on the other hand bring in enough cash fast enough that you live in Beverly Hills, have a fleet of expensive sports cars and have buildings at colleges _named_ after your kids due to the donations you've made.

It's the difference between a cab driver who owns his own cab, or a small business vs the likes of Bill Gates or Donald Trump.

Personally I don't do the all SPP empire - I like finding needs and filling them - like a wheat farm in Oceans of Fantasy.
Like the Soyery and soyfarm in that sector as well. Husk and Wheat are secondary resources for a bunch of Boron plants and I'm the only source for about a dozen sectors distance

I don't have a problem with making slower profit - well not since I had the cash for my Hercules anyway.

I'm just out to have fun - the M2s and M1s can wait.

Xocyll

[Darshu]

@TD & Dscaper.

Yeah, sorry bout that. I didn't mean a flaw in your reasoning. Heh, bad choice of words.

And upon reflection, it still boils down to an SPP pumps out the most credits, its just whether you want to bathe in them or re-invest them that's the question eh?

I kind of prefer a combination of both...

[tboan02]

I wish it would have been here before I spent a lot of time and money to build a supply line of factories to supply a crystal fab to supply crystals to my SPP in an attempt to maximize profits. The problem with this is that it takes a lot of time moving transports around to move goods from one of your factories to the next. I would like to be able to have this automated by the game, or just setup the factory and forget it so I can get back to fighting and capturing ships while making money to fund my war efforts. I just hope they don't decide to fix the ecomony with a patch and cause a real problem for those of us with a lot of SPP's.

Anyways great post and very helpful.

[BFWibble]

I’m very confused about the success everyone seems to be getting with Solar Power Plants. I am really struggling, one moment it seems to be going fine and the next thing my entire SPP industry is on the verge of collapse.

I’ve had a successful SP in Red Light, but again it's those crystals, there are almost none available, my TP is travelling 3 sectors just to bring back 14 crystals, once my SPP was topped up fine now its down to 200, by the time my TP arrives with crystals I’ve used more than it has collected. I’ve got three SPP, one in Kingdoms End (just built), one in Red Light and one in Herrons Nebula. Herrons Nebula SPP is the only SPP that has a full stock of crystals, my SPP in Red Light is having to travel to three worlds for crystals and my SPP in KE is also going to three worlds, once they are gone I will be out all over. Faster TP’s are not the issue, it does not matter if they were going one million miles and hour there are simply almost no crystals for them to rush to.

It seems as though I should be constructing crystal factories, Cahoona bakeries and Cattle Ranches to help with this problem but I notice many people are earning mega credits with just SPP economies. What am I doing wrong? I’m more than happy to restart if I’ve made fundamental mistakes.

Extra Info:
- Each SPP has 2 Argon Express as sellers and 1 Argon Express as a Crystal purchaser (All have max engine tuning)
- Energy selling for 20
- Crystals buying for 1684 (buying only from Trading Stations)
- Using no Scripts

[wormer311]

I'm quite aware of how the economy is flawed........ all i'm saying is that you don't have to build an empire of SPP's to make money in the game. The point is if I have 83 factories and 12 are spp's, then how do I constantly build up enough cash for more factories and corvettes for each sector I have.(NO SETA) It's because all my other factories make plenty of money.


and as for this

By the way.... it's not a very good idea to have 6 manta's selling your energy.... your actually making a lot less then what you think you are making. A lot less. For more info on 450% sunlight and why having multiple selling ships is a bad idea, check out the original post.

This spp will stay stocked at maximum capacity and stops producing before the other tp's can return to pick up more. Having 6 mantas selling makes sure that it will not be stuck at capacity.
This factory makes more money than any other factory I own. When I withdraw money for corvettes the spp in akeelas beacon has 2x more than every other factory I own including all the other spp's. Tell me again why it's not a good idea to have 6 mantas selling?

[BFWibble]

This spp will stay stocked at maximum capacity and stops producing before the other tp's can return to pick up more. Having 6 mantas selling makes sure that it will not be stuck at capacity.
This factory makes more money than any other factory I own. When I withdraw money for corvettes the spp in akeelas beacon has 2x more than every other factory I own including all the other spp's. Tell me again why it's not a good idea to have 6 mantas selling?

If your Solar Power Plant is producing energy so quickly that 6 mantas can’t dwindle the stocks then it must have an incredible demand for crystals. How can you satisfy such a demand with the local economy or is it a must in this case to create your own Crystal Factory and supporting factories?

[Dscaper]

I’m very confused about the success everyone seems to be getting with Solar Power Plants. I am really struggling, one moment it seems to be going fine and the next thing my entire SPP industry is on the verge of collapse.

I’ve had a successful SP in Red Light, but again it's those crystals, there are almost none available, my TP is travelling 3 sectors just to bring back 14 crystals, once my SPP was topped up fine now its down to 200, by the time my TP arrives with crystals I’ve used more than it has collected. I’ve got three SPP, one in Kingdoms End (just built), one in Red Light and one in Herrons Nebula. Herrons Nebula SPP is the only SPP that has a full stock of crystals, my SPP in Red Light is having to travel to three worlds for crystals and my SPP in KE is also going to three worlds, once they are gone I will be out all over. Faster TP’s are not the issue, it does not matter if they were going one million miles and hour there are simply almost no crystals for them to rush to.

It seems as though I should be constructing crystal factories, Cahoona bakeries and Cattle Ranches to help with this problem but I notice many people are earning mega credits with just SPP economies. What am I doing wrong? I’m more than happy to restart if I’ve made fundamental mistakes.

Extra Info:
- Each SPP has 2 Argon Express as sellers and 1 Argon Express as a Crystal purchaser (All have max engine tuning)
- Energy selling for 20
- Crystals buying for 1684 (buying only from Trading Stations)
- Using no Scripts

The energy selling at 20 may have a bearing. I'd tweak it down a little and see if that helps. If you are also relying on people coming to you for energy as well, then there's a very high chance that a nearby (within 1 jump) SSP that belongs to the computer will be selling at less than that. i.e. By the time the SSP on one side of you is selling for more than 20, the one on the other side has restocked and is selling for less. That means you're getting no visitors.

Another factor is to tell the SPP to jump less. It might be the case that the SPP is getting resources from miles away and from a place that is being used heavily by computer traffic. Knock down the distances that they're having to travel, and that might help.

A good value for selling is 13. It might seem low, but it's a good way of seeing if it's your price that is affecting things, and it means that you're not losing money (sell at 12 and you're down by 0.2 credits per unit... it's costing you to sell).

The energy loops system works very tho, so it may be worth trying one out when you've gathered together a little cash. The good thing about a loop is that you don't have to leave the sector to make cash, and you never have crystal issues.

[BFWibble]

I’ve been examining my factories and it turns out that the problem with my Solar Power Plants was the number of selling ships. I am selling energy sells at such a rate that my crystal stocks are being consumed faster than the local economy can replace them. Instead of two ships if I put one on standby and have only one selling ship, the rate at which my factory consumes crystals will then half, the local crystal economy will then pickup again.

The problem with this is that the SPP is doing nothing most of the time, it refills it’s stock before the selling ship even reaches its destination. This of course means that my factory is wasted 95% of the time, I can have three ships selling crystals and the factory will restock before they return, the only thing preventing me from doing this is the fact that the required crystals are not available.

Therefore I think it’s definitely a great idea to have your SPP as the front end of your economy. However the SPP can be enhanced by a few slow profit factories like Cahoona Bakeries, Cattle Ranches and Crystals, not necessarily a closed loop but selling reasonably to the local AI to improve the availability of crystals. I’m going to try and help the AI economy as much as possible, I’m sure if I can turn Kingdoms End into a crystal-manufacturing powerhouse then it will be possible for my SPP to have many seller ships.

[wormer311]

If your Solar Power Plant is producing energy so quickly that 6 mantas can’t dwindle the stocks then it must have an incredible demand for crystals. How can you satisfy such a demand with the local economy or is it a must in this case to create your own Crystal Factory and supporting factories?

All my spp's are supported by my own crystal and support factories..

[-TD-13-]

I'm quite aware of how the economy is flawed........ all i'm saying is that you don't have to build an empire of SPP's to make money in the game. The point is if I have 83 factories and 12 are spp's, then how do I constantly build up enough cash for more factories and corvettes for each sector I have.(NO SETA) It's because all my other factories make plenty of money.

Fine. If you want to make the least amount of profit as possible with the highest risk of loss, then go right ahead. No one will stop you.

But for those who want to excel in the business aspect and like the fact that with risk should come the possibility of greater profit, then X2's not gonna do it. Most people are going to look at the crappy profits and pay off times of all of the other factories and say... why bother? Supply and Demand have no great effect! You can supply a high demand all you want, but your never going to make any good profit at it! So really there is no point to them, unless your using them to help support your SPP, or for convenience when you've reached the higher levels of profit, and need very very large amounts of supplies. I should be able to become a spaceweed tycoon, and if I do a good job at it, make good money at it. That is never the case!

If you are aware of X2's flawed economy, then you must be aware of this as well.

For more info on 450% sunlight and why having multiple selling ships is a bad idea, check out the original post.

Tell me again why it's not a good idea to have 6 mantas selling?

Having multiple ships selling Energy:
Not a good idea. There is a big problem when using multiple ships to sell products. Both ships will go to the station to sell their products. Whichever one gets there first will drop off its energy, lowering the demand and cost for energy at that station. The second transport won’t realize this, and when it arrives at the station, it will sell its energy for the much lower price. Try to only have one ship doing the selling.

@Darshu I see what you mean. I have a drone factory as well. Only use is to help supply my ships with fighter drones.... all for the good of trying to get my SPPs opperating near their best.

But just keep in mind, if all you need to do is fit a titan, building a high tech factory isn't a good idea. The weapon and Sheild factories are so highly unprofitable, that you would need to build over 200-300 lasers/sheilds in order to even save 20,000 credits. (which can rack up to 400 hours...) Good I guess for really really really later in the game when you have several 100 million and want to place a corvette/destoryer every couple of sectors or are planning on taking over the universe.

Works ok though for fighter drones and possibly 5 Mw sheilds.

[DEADBEEF.]

But just keep in mind, if all you need to do is fit a titan, building a high tech factory isn't a good idea. The weapon and Sheild factories are so highly unprofitable, that you would need to build over 200-300 lasers/sheilds in order to even save 20,000 credits. (which can rack up to 400 hours...) Good I guess for really really really later in the game when you have several 100 million and want to place a corvette/destoryer every couple of sectors or are planning on taking over the universe.

Works ok though for fighter drones and possibly 5 Mw sheilds.

**GRINS**

[Dscaper]

Very good point regarding the 6 sellers (presumably on one SPP). By the time the first one has unloaded at the destination (and driven the buying price down), the sixth one is on the way to sell at the very same destination. If it's producing as fast as that, then when the 6th ship arrives at it's destination with its cargo, it'll be selling it at (or very close) to 9 credits per unit. In some instances, the target factory may not have used up enough energy for the 6th ship to be able to unload all its energy.

If anything, the maximum number of mantas on one SPP that are selling, then it'd be three. More than that, and you run the risk of selling perfectly good energy at a price that's not really any good. If that SPP over in Akeela's Beacon is so good, then throw 2 crystal fabs onto the back of it, and then use the one SPP to "over-power" additional factories on the front-end of it.

You think you may be getting more money out of it because it's producing faster, but because of the travelling delays between the first seller arriving at a destination and the last seller leaving the point-of-sale, you are actually gaining very little.

All because you're producing energy at 450% doesn't mean you are speeding up the usage of energy by factories that are NOT affected by the sun value.

My advice... forget selling from a 450% SPP, and use the energy for personal reasons, i.e. powering a "Super-Loop". If you do your calculations, I reckon you could fit somewhere between 11 and 14 factories onto a 450-SPP.

(EXAMPLE)

Manta A loads up 1000 and sets off for Factory A, who require Energy at 23.
.
Manta B loads up 1000 and sets off for Factory A, who require Energy at 23.
.
Manta C loads up 1000 and sets off for Factory A, who require Energy at 23.
.
Manta D loads up 1000 and sets off for Factory A, who (still) require Energy at 23.
.
.
Manta A arrives and sells 1000 energy for 23,000 credits.
.
Manta B arrives and sells 1000 energy for 19,000 credits.
.
Manta C arrives and sells 1000 energy for 16,000 credits.
.
Manta D arrives and sells 1000 energy for 13,000 credits.

The more mantas you add, the worse it goes. Add another Manta, and it'll be selling 1000 at 11 per unit. Add yet another, and the Manta will be selling at close to base. God forbid that some computer AI transports get there before Manta A arrives, then you're looking at clogging up your SPP.

Goes to show that 450% isn't all that it is cracked up to be, and that extra sunlight should ideally be used for self-usage in my book.

*feel free to comment, flame, add, amend, delete, etc*

[Dscaper]

Might be an idea to use Iguana's to do the remote selling. Smaller hold, faster speed. Stand more chance of getting in before the AI, and you'll be shifting energy to a new target faster. Also, stick 2 25Mw shields on, and they'll cover it for long enough that it can fly past a Khaak (mine here usually drop to about 35% then the Khaak is out of range and not lost one yet).

6 Iguana means that you'll never sell below 16, and they'll be selling the stuff at the same speed as it's being made, which I presume is what you are attempting with your mantas at the moment.

Remote delivery is all about getting in there quick... it's not always about getting in there with the most.

[wormer311]

Having 1 manta selling energy is just plain dumb. It can't possibly sell fast enough to keep up with the production from any spp especially one in akeelas beacon. Ya'll can do the math all you want but i'm talking from game experience.......the factory makes more money and it makes it faster because of the 6 mantas selling.

You try it ....pop an spp in akeelas beacon and have 1 manta slling energy........play a few hours and check your credits in that factory.......then load up a previous save and try it again ......this time have 4-6 mantas selling......i gurantee you the second time around your factory will have a lot more credits.