Everyone, pull out your annoyed hats, but listen

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Mikro39
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Everyone, pull out your annoyed hats, but listen

Post by Mikro39 » Fri, 1. May 09, 07:39

Now, I am new to the forum, yes, but not new to the X universe (aside from the story, never played through it), I'm not new to Sci Fi or space games, and I'm most defiantly not new to video games. I'm also not a retard, and I search the forum, and read all of Gazz's posts that were in english regarding it, but I still just plain out cannot see why X3 is not multi player.

I've done research on the thing, I've looked at examples, and I've come to the conclusion that this great game could become amazing with multi player. I come to this conclusion with one example, Freelancer by microsoft games.

Now, if I were a developer, I wouldn't rag on games or say they are better. I'm not here to say that either. X3 is probably the most beautiful space games i've seen since Homeworld 2 by Sierra games, and that games beauty was in the sheer scale of a strategy game. So rest assured that I am NOT ragging on X3 when I make references to these games. I am simply applying personal experiences and opinions to cited references of respected opinions throughout the web.

Now I understand the argument of the processing power and problems that can arise from such a demanding game as X3, but to claim that modern systems cannon handle such processing power, you have to look at several examples, from Freelancer, with up to a hundred players per server (at it's peak, microsoft recently shut down it's server processing hub, and now a port forwarding patch is required to play, but you can still play, and there are still servers receiving high volumes of play such as the crossfire servers). I also bring up, that the amount of lag is minimal with my computer running the server in the background as I play the game here at my house with with 8 of my buddies from school, and I don't have a super machine.

For another example, I would like to make a reference to the now freeware game Battlecruiser millennium by 3000 AD, and even their newer titles, which combine land, air and space in multi player, and have since 2003. give you the ability to point at literally any star in space, and eventually fly there, along with becoming a marine and storming ships, killing the crew and capturing it. So this doesn't sound like i'm promoting the game, because by no means do I want you to think that, it's complexity makes X3 seem simple, and even seemingly simple tasks took novels to read up on, as the infantry portion alone of the game took 500 pages to give you a basic 'operational stand point.' It's beauty of size was destroyed by is complexity, and that is why it remains freeware.

The point is technology is out there, and even with massive renderings. I have played with fifty people on Battlecruiser, and on a full server with freelancer, all of these including star ships, stations, and multiple places, so the excuse of massive renderings not being an option only hinders the true potential of X3, and the X series in general.

But I bring up Freelancer mostly on purpose, and that is because on one key factor, replayablity. Yes, the story line was great, but more so was the multiplayer, and this can be seen, with the community, which still lives and thrives (the games was releaser June 6 2003), and this is based heavily off of mods, and the multiplayer functions of it. But there are several complaints my friends and I always have regarding system purchase, home bases, building, hiring people, trade routes, economy ect. ect. this conversation has lead us on searches for mods, patches and role playing servers, but still, to only a slight avail with one mod, and even said mod only pleases part of the complaints we have.

The search ended a few years ago, when I decided with my shiny new computer, I was going to find some game with a least some of those. And I did. On steam, X3:Reunion was advertised, and it looked beautiful. being a fan of games like this since my purchase of Tachyon: The Fringe in 2000 and homeworld in 1999, I purchased it with excitement. choosing a character, I jumped in, and fell in love with the games perfect complexity, companies, trading and pure right of freelancing. The game was great...all but one little detail. No multi player.

Now why do I bring this up, rather than just move on? Because this game has the potential of exploding as probably one of the BEST multiplayer games in the space simulation sector, and would drive more multiplayer fans to buy it, especially with companies like Valve with steam distributing, and giving the way.

I come with a simple warning and advisory statement. If the X Universe doesn't simply go up to multiplayer, it will eventually fade into the freeware piles of unnamed websites. There is evidence of this on the freeware sites, games like 3000AD's Universal Combat (2007) and others end up being given away, and dropped off, while games like Blizzard's Star Craft (1998) still sell at Wallmart for 20$ because people still play this game on LAN. The X universe is beautiful, extensive and not as hard as reviews I read make it out to be (although it is pretty difficult, it takes roughly half hour to an hour to truly get it down). Games bearing the same style and same principals that make this game great will soon overrun this game, and make it only great to those who own it. My friends and I take turns playing it some days...and there is a good 3 copies waiting on multiplayer.

So I just want a real response of why this game cannot go multi player, or more importantly, when will it. Because if you don't, games like infinity: The quest for earth, All Aspects Warfare and Jumpgate may simply threaten the existence of the game (in the expanding interest of the game sort of way, fans are great, but we will also get busy, and some will drop, so you MUST expand your fan base).

Now, if you do respond, and it's simply full of dumb statements and questions, regarding your love for the game, your dying loyalty for the game, how much you like playing single player (i'm not asking to remove that feature), How you think that this post belongs somewhere else or never existed or simply attack me, you will accomplish no more than loosing my respect, and that doesn't matter, nor do I care. If the developers don't respond with a reasonable answer more than "We can't" or, "it's impossible" I will also simply move on. There are games out there that are becoming slowly what this game started as, and I will wait. But I like this game, and I want to make a statement as a fan, that yo need multiplayer. need it. You're not in the age of making single player games only now, you must evolve, and you must become the game that leads the pack.

Also, a note to server admins, don't simply delete this post, or my account. Fans must be able to communicate with developers so they can express what they want in a game. If the developer doesn't listen, then that is their choice, but I am violating none of the forum rules. I simply want an answer to the question mostly answered with opinions of fans, and not actual programmers. I know of a lot of people who would buy this game, both around here, and online that have expressed interest, but are waiting for multiplayer. I think it would be a wise decision.

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Aro
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Post by Aro » Fri, 1. May 09, 07:49

Multiplayer versions have been in dev for a long time. Competition comes out to push the tech will be a good thing. Oh, and supposedly TC was the last iteration of this series. I'd expect them to do another given a break and change in pace after say 4 years. So who knows what will come out next.

Some sort of closed mulyiplayer non-MMO could work, it's quite complex to get in to things though.
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Post by Frostynso » Fri, 1. May 09, 07:53

I'd hate to be a newbie getting smashed by retards flying around in Destroyers while I'm just in my starting Buster. Then you'll have that guy who spams 200 fighter drones. Or the dudes who put Equipment Docks in front of jumpgates in heavily-travelled spacelanes.

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Post by Bubbinska » Fri, 1. May 09, 07:59

Of course it's possible to make this game multiplayer - see EvE online. That doesn't mean the developers want to. It's important to consider the target market, effort involved, existing competition, and so forth when discussing this suggestion. As you already mentioned, there is a plethora of games that already provide a similar experience to what the X-series with multiplayer would give. It'd be great to have this option, but that doesn't mean it's business-viable. Remember that Egosoft is a business, and it's their job to make money. Perhaps it's been evaluated and determined to be not financially viable. Maybe the developer wants to produce a complete single-player experience, and in order to allow multiplayer to be included, limitations such as money and storage space would mean the content would be cut down in order to make the multiplayer experience work.

Maybe the next game in the X universe will have multiplayer, and they're just waiting until the right time to announce it.

and I believe that This thread is sufficient proof that the discussion could have been continued in an existing thread. [/url]

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Post by X2-Eliah » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:09

Technological difficulties aside, the main issues with X3 multiplayer (if we assume we make it multiplayer as it is now) would arise in the latter stages of the game..

Sure, it would work with one playership, but imagine if you had about 10 M2s each in different sectors in a multiplayer game. Naturally, you would command one, but the others would be AI piloted, and you know that if another player chooses to assault your AI ship, you can easily start saving up for a new one.. Freelancer didn't have to deal with this issue because it was hardly possible to own several ships and multitask them.

Second, The issue of stations arises. What if one player destroys every single shipyard? What if he takes out every SPP?

Third, what happens to your properties (your stations, your AI ships, your own ship) when you log off and the other players remain? If your property becomes invincible, it wouldn't really be fair. If they remain just the same, then they are easy pickings for everyone.

Fourth, the issues of anti-cheating would be difficult to avoid. Consider that X3 games are quite welcoming to modding, scripting, and are easily accessible in this area. Restricting cheating when the core of the game enforces it is a gargantuan task - I can set GTA IV (PC version) multiplayer as the perfect example - the core of the game is open for modding, and thus multiplayer is.. well, I think you know what I mean. Well, this is actually a technological thing, but.. meh.


Fifth, abuse and 'griefing' would be a serious issue, because you technically are allowed and enforced to gain power several times larger than what you started with - in one game (Think an M5/4 versus and M1/2). Putting faith in community is never a good idea - it only takes a one out of a hundred to ruin your experience. Besides, multiplayer would attract the less polite persons (Think the EVE players, or FPS crowd).


I think the problem is that Freelancer does not really work as an example for X3s multiplayer - Freelancer was solely based on fighting, the variations between ships that you could have were quite small compared to what X3 offers, and there was no question of station owning etc..
-------------------------

And I'm not even mentioning the technical difficulties.

Well, this is probably the last time I post a reply on a multiplayer, but the OP was constructed quite adequately, and if this prevents any other multiplayer topics from opening, then it's all good.

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Roger L.S. Griffiths
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Post by Roger L.S. Griffiths » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:25

You make a fair and reasonable argument for your position, and very eloquently put in my opinion.

As a fan of the X series and Freelancer, I agree with your ideas in principle. The X-series of games would probably benefit from a multiplayer version, if it were to be continued/revived in the future.

With regards to the comment about advanced players running around in destroyers killing all the newbies, a simple answer would be to make the starting systems non-PvP systems, so that starting players at least have a chance to advance to an M2 killing M3/M4 ;)

With regards to the comment about players who might drop stations in front of gates so that all the traffic goes bang on exiting the gate, a simple answer would be to make it impossible to drop a station say with-in 5km of a gate. and change the sector transition system so that it prevents people transiting a gate if there is another ship with-in say 2.5km of the exit side of the gate (on the nominal flight path) and to add defensive weapons to the gates so that if a player tries to exploit this feature in order to stop traffic in-out of a sector that the gate goes hostile to the player and starts attacking them.
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Re: Everyone, pull out your annoyed hats, but listen

Post by eladan » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:27

Mikro39 wrote:Now, I am new to the forum, yes, but not new to the X universe (aside from the story, never played through it), I'm not new to Sci Fi or space games, and I'm most defiantly not new to video games. I'm also not a retard, and I search the forum, and read all of Gazz's posts that were in english regarding it, but I still just plain out cannot see why X3 is not multi player.
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty believing that none of those threads made mention of the single reason that there is no multiplayer in the X games - Egosoft lack the funds to do so.

It has been mentioned time and again, that implementing LAN multiplayer would be costly in terms of development, while the expected return on investment would be negligible. Believe that or not, as you will, but Egosoft have done their sums, and are in the best position to make the call.

Despite that, they have always stated their wish to create an MMO of the X universe, so it's not that they are simply against multiplayer of any sort. Once again, though, this would require funding that they currently lack.

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Kryten
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Post by Kryten » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:33

I'd hate to be a newbie getting smashed by retards flying around in Destroyers while I'm just in my starting Buster. Then you'll have that guy who spams 200 fighter drones. Or the dudes who put Equipment Docks in front of jumpgates in heavily-travelled spacelanes.
This is why I gave up on online gaming, too many kids who are going through puberty and think its normal to abuse sensible players.

To the original poster, I liked freelancer, but when I went online I ultimately got abused by these so called retards who get kicks out of annoying new players.
For another example, I would like to make a reference to the now freeware game Battlecruiser millennium by 3000 AD
I bought the original game and it was broken, back in the day when internet was just a baby, one of the biggest waste of money I've ever spent on a game. looked a good game but they never even attempted to fix it. I didn't even want to look at anything else they tried to sell me.
I come with a simple warning and advisory statement. If the X Universe doesn't simply go up to multiplayer, it will eventually fade into the freeware piles of unnamed websites
Just look at the date I joined, I doubt very much that X universe will fade into oblivion. :lol: Egosoft have brainwashed me into being their slave and no multiplayer in sight, now that speaks volumes. :wink:
Now, if you do respond, and it's simply full of dumb statements and questions, regarding your love for the game, your dying loyalty for the game, how much you like playing single player
So you don't want to hear the truth about what makes X so special :?: My only gripe about X games is that there's no 360 or PS3 version so I could enjoy it on my 50" HDTV :(
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Mikro39
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Post by Mikro39 » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:34

Yes, but all set aside, we play Freelancer LAN. These problems could be solved with a phone book at carefully thrown at his head, or local admins (whoever is running the server) banning said person. Also remember, I'm not saying change, i'm saying add. If concerns about cheating and difficulty managing your company along with the escorts worry you, than stick with single player. But with dynamic AI and server admins paying attention when their on, I can't see a viable argument yet on how come it is not possible/viable. because creating companies and fighting friends, economically and through war or working together sounds like a ton of fun. You don't need massive online servers, but the option would be nice. You have cheaters on every game as well, on any multiplayer game.

I am also viewing this from the standpoint of a business. If they go multiplayer, keeping the original options in tact, than I can't see how that would narrow their audience, or alienate fans. I think it could only build fans and the people who want to buy it. If a developer doesn't really look into multiplayer, than they aren't watching the market. Most games have a single player section and multiplayer option.

I used Freelancer as an example as a game that gives you freedom. Some of the mods even allow you to buy ships, have AI pilots, and have them run trade as you guard them, or, send them off and hope for the best. These mods are fun, but are made independently, and are subject to basement programmers inexpirance. X3 is already everything that Freelancer lacked. Freelancer became old once you reached a certain point of power. Because like X2-Eliah said, "it's a fighting game." But people don't just want it to be a fighting game.

And don't take jabs at the "EVE/FPS" Crowd. They are people that can be avoided on the game. I'm not saying MMO or only MP. I'm saying add the option, so those who want can play online or LAN.

I just want you all to ask yourself this question.

Would you all NOT buy the game if there was a multiplayer function in addition to the X universes' single player we already love?

You can still play single player...read the post again. I said in addition. just like you can start as a different character, so could you choose 'multiplayer' or 'singleplayer.' never mention getting beat up, slammed around or spamming up. I mentioned getting together with my friends, and taking on the X universe together.

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Re: Everyone, pull out your annoyed hats, but listen

Post by Bubbinska » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:35

eladan wrote: I'm afraid I'm having difficulty believing that none of those threads made mention of the single reason that there is no multiplayer in the X games - Egosoft lack the funds to do so.
I didn't read very many of the multiplayer threads before replying, so I didn't see this - but there you have it, apparently.

The solution - Everyone go out and buy a second copy of X3: TC! :lol:

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Roger L.S. Griffiths
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Post by Roger L.S. Griffiths » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:41

X2-Eliah wrote:I think the problem is that Freelancer does not really work as an example for X3s multiplayer - Freelancer was solely based on fighting, the variations between ships that you could have were quite small compared to what X3 offers, and there was no question of station owning etc..
I both agree and disagree with the Freelancer comparison. I have played Freelancer and written some mods for it too. In general what you say is accurate. If you were to make an MMO X then somethings would have to be sacrificed. The most likely candidates would be the ability for players to build and destroy stations (ala Freelancer), with that being replaced by the players being able to buy docking/storage space on NPC stations, and the docking limit being lifted completely (ala Freelancer). In addition, rather than buying actual stations, the players would be able to buy facilities on NPC stations.

As a general point on the "MMO/MP Player Rage" crowd, this will always be a problem with un-moderated MMO games will never be avoided completely. However, there are a variety of mechanisms to perform damage limitation (e.g. Password protected player controlled game servers, Policing of MMO servers with account bans/suspensions being possible punishment)
Roger (aka [SRK] Mr^Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

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Mikro39
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Post by Mikro39 » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:44

now, Kryten, what did I say about personal jabs? From a business perspective, all the people that have responded aren't the 22 million units, or 55 million units sold. Our entire maybe 300 dollars total to the X universe maybe paid for .01% of the games development and building.

I also wasn't promoting any of those games, once again, they were used as examples of how refinement makes a great game.

In Freelancer, servers could also make no PVP, and set the starting amount of money.

So I am not yet hear a viable reason. I'm hear personal grievances and complaints about multiplaying games, not about reasons for not having it aside from the 'target audience' comment, and even that can be proven with a poll of "if multiplayer was added, who wouldn't buy an 'X' game?"

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Post by Mikro39 » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:46

I also want it to go down into the record, that I by no means suggest MMO. If that's the direction they want, that is fine, but even Freelancer servers were not MMO.

If you want to avoid the multiplayer scene, thats fine, but I think the game could benifit from multiplayer...even if server max was set to 32, and the Server operator could choose how many people he wants to fill bandwidth.

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Post by Kryten » Fri, 1. May 09, 08:59

now, Kryten, what did I say about personal jabs? From a business perspective, all the people that have responded aren't the 22 million units, or 55 million units sold. Our entire maybe 300 dollars total to the X universe maybe paid for .01% of the games development and building.
could you explain this in a language I can understand :?
In Freelancer, servers could also make no PVP, and set the starting amount of money.
A non pvp server is basically a single player game with chat? why bother.
So I am not yet hear a viable reason.


It seems that you don't want to hear a viable reason, isn't it enough for me to suggest that a single player space sim is enough? but you seem to think that response is not viable because your so obsessed that you are right and nobody elses views are important. I don't feel the need to have an online X universe, this is not to say I wouldn't like one, just that I don't feel its a priority in my life. You even said you don't want to hear certain points of view. This would suggest that you'r more narrow minded than you'd like to admit perhaps.
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Post by frymaster » Fri, 1. May 09, 10:26

Kryten wrote:A non pvp server is basically a single player game with chat? why bother.
you could call left4dead a single player game with chat then :P
you'd still get economic competition, and you'd still get co-operating in epic khaak/xenon battles :D

having said that, never since i've been here has someone come up with decent solutions to the design challenges of putting the X games online and it still being the x universe... i don't think anyone's really solved the question of what happens to your property when you log off, especially in a PvP server. And, design challenges aside, the economic challenge (paying for development) is still a brick wall...
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