Hi all.
Here is a combat guide with a difference, it does not tell you what ship to buy, it does not tell you how to capture ships or what all the weapons do.
It tells you why your M2 is getting destroyed far too easily and why your M6 is not very good for sector patrols on its own and what you can do about those problems.
By the time your finished reading it you will be convinced of 2 things.
1) Merroc is insane.
2) X3 combat is vastly different from X2s combat and that most important point needs to be considered first and foremost.
English Guide
http://www.respawn.co.uk/content/view/338/70/
Italian Guide Translated by Robx.
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=124145
If you want more in depth Combat tips covering weapons, ships, capturing tricks, see the pinned guide at the top of this forum. I have delibrately not repeated information found in those guides.
Giskard
X3 Combat: The Right Role (guide)
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X3 Combat: The Right Role (guide)
Last edited by giskard on Sat, 28. Jan 06, 01:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Interesting and useful ideas for combined arms patrols. What are your thoughts (and the thoughts of others) on the role of missile armed fighters?
An M3, M4, or M5 becomes a much more effective anti-fighter ship when armed with appropriate missile loadouts (wasps take out M5, silkworms for M4s and M3s) and set to increase the probability of missile use. Economically, (1) the player can get cheaper missiles by building them in factories, and (2) a 5000 credit silkworm costs a lot less than the M4 it destroys.
An M3, M4, or M5 becomes a much more effective anti-fighter ship when armed with appropriate missile loadouts (wasps take out M5, silkworms for M4s and M3s) and set to increase the probability of missile use. Economically, (1) the player can get cheaper missiles by building them in factories, and (2) a 5000 credit silkworm costs a lot less than the M4 it destroys.
Pirate dentistry: Make 'em open up and say "AAAAH..."
Thats a question I didnt answer because to be honest, I wanted users to dream up stuff like that them selves and post their own ideas.
Im sure you will agree, the guide opens up a lot of questions as to what should work better or worse in those areas.
As for missile ships, personally, i think they are a great idea.
One of those in a fleet and youd be frag happy in no time, though I would make it my own personal ship (if i had a missile ship). As for the choice of missiles, theres a couple i love but i keep forgetting their names. Thunderbolts are one I think but cost a lot.
Edit: just a note regarding your comment about the cost of missiles verse the cost of the M4 it destroys. Thats very true but the cost of replacing your own ships due to a lack of missiles is also worth considering.
Giskard
Im sure you will agree, the guide opens up a lot of questions as to what should work better or worse in those areas.
As for missile ships, personally, i think they are a great idea.
One of those in a fleet and youd be frag happy in no time, though I would make it my own personal ship (if i had a missile ship). As for the choice of missiles, theres a couple i love but i keep forgetting their names. Thunderbolts are one I think but cost a lot.
Edit: just a note regarding your comment about the cost of missiles verse the cost of the M4 it destroys. Thats very true but the cost of replacing your own ships due to a lack of missiles is also worth considering.
Giskard
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My experience with missiles has led me to specialize ships since the AI doesn't appear to do a good job of deciding when to use or not to use a missile.
For example, I'll dump some Wasps in an M4 or M5 and try to keep that ship dealing with enemy fighters while another ship, usually an M3 has heavier missiles and gets ordered to attack M6/M2/M1 targets.
I totally agree with the weapon points in the guide too. I've had much better luck sticking to "weaker" guns and I keep my personal ship outfitted with a good mix of weapon groups while enforcing it on my AI piloted fighters by limitting them to mostly Alpha versions of one weapon type.
For example, I'll dump some Wasps in an M4 or M5 and try to keep that ship dealing with enemy fighters while another ship, usually an M3 has heavier missiles and gets ordered to attack M6/M2/M1 targets.
I totally agree with the weapon points in the guide too. I've had much better luck sticking to "weaker" guns and I keep my personal ship outfitted with a good mix of weapon groups while enforcing it on my AI piloted fighters by limitting them to mostly Alpha versions of one weapon type.
Combat
That Giskard is a very interesting article....
I have come through the ranks of X-BTF, X-Tension, and X2, and I don't get much time each week, thus I am only just over 2 days in, and don't have an M6 yet (not enough rank) and I only have captured M3's as again I don't have enough rank (although I have 30 mill enough for a few)...
I have the (free) Falcon Sentinel (2 125mw shields), a Nova and Nova Raider which make up my first major task force which I jump in to take down a group of pirates.. They are all full wih HEPT and I am wondering if I should try something different... Although they seem to do OK I think because of the Falcon's 2 massive shields..
They are only used Out of Sector... (I am still having fun in Olman.... capturing Yaki).. and I wondered whether I should try IONs on some of them along with PACS - have you any thoughts on IONS - obviously, they should get the shields down very quickly. In fact, I use 2 IONS and 2 PACs on my Pirate Buster, and it is supreme in capturing because it gets the shields down so quicky and the PACS start on the hull so much quicker than having all PACS (well that is what I seem to find)....
Would I be right in assuming that you are talking about mainly all Out of Sector work?
Thanks
I have come through the ranks of X-BTF, X-Tension, and X2, and I don't get much time each week, thus I am only just over 2 days in, and don't have an M6 yet (not enough rank) and I only have captured M3's as again I don't have enough rank (although I have 30 mill enough for a few)...
I have the (free) Falcon Sentinel (2 125mw shields), a Nova and Nova Raider which make up my first major task force which I jump in to take down a group of pirates.. They are all full wih HEPT and I am wondering if I should try something different... Although they seem to do OK I think because of the Falcon's 2 massive shields..
They are only used Out of Sector... (I am still having fun in Olman.... capturing Yaki).. and I wondered whether I should try IONs on some of them along with PACS - have you any thoughts on IONS - obviously, they should get the shields down very quickly. In fact, I use 2 IONS and 2 PACs on my Pirate Buster, and it is supreme in capturing because it gets the shields down so quicky and the PACS start on the hull so much quicker than having all PACS (well that is what I seem to find)....
Would I be right in assuming that you are talking about mainly all Out of Sector work?
Thanks
Re: X3 Combat: The Right Role (guide)
As if one needs your guide for that...giskard wrote:1) Merroc is insane.
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Misinformed
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Sirus5: Ions are good in pairs be clearly you dont want to use them if your ship is being escorted. That would be very bad.
Misinformed: Nope I didnt, thats constantly being tweaked along with everything else in the game until its right.
But that doesnt mean I didnt test it, some of the results you read in the guide for the m6 patrols where the same in and out of sector. No difference in the result. The only difference that existed was the result occured earlier out of sector so the combat ended sooner rather than later.
In sector combat always takes more time it seems. Plus you can use tactics in sector which biases the results in your favour. But the guides primary theme as far as tactics go, work in and out of sector.
Additional: the old he who has the most guns in range wins tip, seems to apply at all times.
Giskard
Misinformed: Nope I didnt, thats constantly being tweaked along with everything else in the game until its right.
But that doesnt mean I didnt test it, some of the results you read in the guide for the m6 patrols where the same in and out of sector. No difference in the result. The only difference that existed was the result occured earlier out of sector so the combat ended sooner rather than later.
In sector combat always takes more time it seems. Plus you can use tactics in sector which biases the results in your favour. But the guides primary theme as far as tactics go, work in and out of sector.
Additional: the old he who has the most guns in range wins tip, seems to apply at all times.
Giskard
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General Dave
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Interesting guide......
I can see why you left out BFAA's, and Split Capitol ships which can own both fighters and cap ships using the max weapon configurations available.
I'll try escorting M3's with 5's and M6's with M4's and all the combinations.
I do also pray for the time when I can control and 1 a group of fighters or assign them group orders.
Also your comments on PPC's ignore the dragon mounting 4APPC's and MD's, which is a perfect anti everything fighter if used by the player, or not or OOS.(I know you said you didn't want to mention MD's)
It's made me think anyway which is good.
Do you want your guide spellchecked (i'll PM you all of the mistakes) as it seems a bit misspelt in places....
Apart from that its a stand up guide.
I can see why you left out BFAA's, and Split Capitol ships which can own both fighters and cap ships using the max weapon configurations available.
I'll try escorting M3's with 5's and M6's with M4's and all the combinations.
I do also pray for the time when I can control and 1 a group of fighters or assign them group orders.
Also your comments on PPC's ignore the dragon mounting 4APPC's and MD's, which is a perfect anti everything fighter if used by the player, or not or OOS.(I know you said you didn't want to mention MD's)
It's made me think anyway which is good.
Do you want your guide spellchecked (i'll PM you all of the mistakes) as it seems a bit misspelt in places....
Apart from that its a stand up guide.
You can spell check it if you like, im a right one for making mistakes but not if its american vs english or combination of the two type mistakes. I tend to spell words which ever way my spell checker allows these days rather than mess around setting up dictionaries for english. Just had a reinstall anyway and ive a lot of other stuff to setup still.GENERAL DAVE wrote:Interesting guide......
I can see why you left out BFAA's, and Split Capitol ships which can own both fighters and cap ships using the max weapon configurations available.
I'll try escorting M3's with 5's and M6's with M4's and all the combinations.
I do also pray for the time when I can control and 1 a group of fighters or assign them group orders.
Also your comments on PPC's ignore the dragon mounting 4APPC's and MD's, which is a perfect anti everything fighter if used by the player, or not or OOS.(I know you said you didn't want to mention MD's)
It's made me think anyway which is good.
Do you want your guide spellchecked (i'll PM you all of the mistakes) as it seems a bit misspelt in places....
Apart from that its a stand up guide.
You know how that goes.
Giskard
This signature has been stolen by the well known Teladi Signature Thief X Siggy.
Entertaining article indeed.
Not that it matters. Assuming that the OOS combat is function of laservalue and shieldvalue only, there is a minor problem. It may be very hard to convert to something more complex (closer to in sector). For example, the target type could/should affect the laservalue, like make FLAK a killer against fighters. That would do interesting things to opinions about M6 class.
The Split way seems good in many places: "The best defence is not to be in the line of fire." Jump to Khaak sector and let the OOS patrols take care of the rest of the universe.
OOS being tweaked by EGO or that chapter of the article tweaked by you?giskard wrote:Misinformed: Nope I didnt, thats constantly being tweaked along with everything else in the game until its right.
Not that it matters. Assuming that the OOS combat is function of laservalue and shieldvalue only, there is a minor problem. It may be very hard to convert to something more complex (closer to in sector). For example, the target type could/should affect the laservalue, like make FLAK a killer against fighters. That would do interesting things to opinions about M6 class.
The Split way seems good in many places: "The best defence is not to be in the line of fire." Jump to Khaak sector and let the OOS patrols take care of the rest of the universe.
ive been telling peeps from my 1st day here, apac/bpac is the way to go.....but they are all trying to `scare` the enemies into ejecting with that quick fire theory (which is wrong i think) and a full load of ahepts.
i find bpacs are devastating and apcas are just as good, and i havent really noticed that biga difference.
basically anyone who hasnt chosento fly the pirate buster for for a few days with its insane recharge and a full load of apacs hasnt lived
probally the most fun fighter in game, although if you dont mind using mass drivers the pirate buzzard is phoenomenal...but with just 1x5mw
i havent mounted a ahept on any ship ive personally flown since i realised you get one devastating blow and then the rest of combat is waitin for guns to recharge..........not good when u are facing the 6+ m4/m5 pirate group
as ever good guide
i find bpacs are devastating and apcas are just as good, and i havent really noticed that biga difference.
basically anyone who hasnt chosento fly the pirate buster for for a few days with its insane recharge and a full load of apacs hasnt lived
probally the most fun fighter in game, although if you dont mind using mass drivers the pirate buzzard is phoenomenal...but with just 1x5mw
i havent mounted a ahept on any ship ive personally flown since i realised you get one devastating blow and then the rest of combat is waitin for guns to recharge..........not good when u are facing the 6+ m4/m5 pirate group
as ever good guide
I have to say, I mount 4 AHEPTs on my Nova Raider, and even firing linked, they have a good amount of life before draining. Personally, I only use this combo against a group of enemies in order to destroy/damage the smaller fighters quickly, before switching to ID + 2 or 1 AHEPT for M3s.
I haven't yet taken on anything bigger, so I can't comment of fighting larger ships.
I haven't yet taken on anything bigger, so I can't comment of fighting larger ships.
most people use em so they cant be bad, but when theres a 100 enemies on screen rather than 3 pirates these things need to be taken into considerationSpenny wrote:I have to say, I mount 4 AHEPTs on my Nova Raider, and even firing linked, they have a good amount of life before draining. Personally, I only use this combo against a group of enemies in order to destroy/damage the smaller fighters quickly, before switching to ID + 2 or 1 AHEPT for M3s.
I haven't yet taken on anything bigger, so I can't comment of fighting larger ships.
example
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1587 ... umb3dt.jpg
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apricotslice
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Another nice guide.
Isnt it about time all the guides were put together into a single downloadable pdf file ? Or better yet, assembled into a book and published ?
I have one problem with the way X3 combat is designed.
When ships depend on other ships as much as is now the case, the commands mechanism MUST be able to cater to this, and it fails miserably.
There is no way to tell a M6 and its fighter escort to defend each other while taking out the asssigned target. They all just get each other killed with no organised purpose at all.
Its been said before and I'll say it again here, the game desperately needs high level fleet management tools, as well as the high level trading tools that are lacking.
And scripting is not the answer. If the game ships with combat designed in such a way, then the game should also ship with the tools to set up effective fleet management. And it didnt.
The existing scripts, while good, are still cumbersome and inadequate for the combat conditions you describe so well.
When I have a fleet of 200 ships, and want smaller groups based around mutual support, trying to do orders for this, one ship at a time, is nothing short of a nightmare. I need to see all 200 ships in an easy glance, and simple click once to assign 20 or more at the same time to a fleet or sub group, and sub-groups to a higher group, and to give them orders. And the range of orders should reflect all kinds of combat situations and the if buts and maybes that could occur.
And until the fleet managment is built into the game properly, the combat rebalance, while sounding a good idea, has just made the "balancing of the game" far more unbalanced and taken the fun out it for the people who like running a single M2 around killing everything.
Seriously, its the changes to the game that have been made on the recommendation of long term players, without giving thought to how you implement the new required tactics easily, that make the game so damn frustrating at times to play.
The combat as you describe it DEMANDS fleet management.
The game doesnt have any.
And thats why so many people get frustrated at losing their M2's for no apparent reason. Its too hard to set up the support you describe and the results are just not good enough when you try to because the AI just cant handle fleet management well enough to co-ordinate a fleet unit.
Back to the guide though, its nice to finally understand why the complaints have been thick and fast. Now that I do, I dont think I will bother with capital ships at all, since apparently all I need is a large group of expendable M5's.
Edit : After answering another thread, I would be quite happy if the fleet and trading managements were released as an add-on. I realise there is a lot of work in them, and that it needs to be paid for. But they would need to be a lot easier to use than existing scripts.
Isnt it about time all the guides were put together into a single downloadable pdf file ? Or better yet, assembled into a book and published ?
I have one problem with the way X3 combat is designed.
When ships depend on other ships as much as is now the case, the commands mechanism MUST be able to cater to this, and it fails miserably.
There is no way to tell a M6 and its fighter escort to defend each other while taking out the asssigned target. They all just get each other killed with no organised purpose at all.
Its been said before and I'll say it again here, the game desperately needs high level fleet management tools, as well as the high level trading tools that are lacking.
And scripting is not the answer. If the game ships with combat designed in such a way, then the game should also ship with the tools to set up effective fleet management. And it didnt.
The existing scripts, while good, are still cumbersome and inadequate for the combat conditions you describe so well.
When I have a fleet of 200 ships, and want smaller groups based around mutual support, trying to do orders for this, one ship at a time, is nothing short of a nightmare. I need to see all 200 ships in an easy glance, and simple click once to assign 20 or more at the same time to a fleet or sub group, and sub-groups to a higher group, and to give them orders. And the range of orders should reflect all kinds of combat situations and the if buts and maybes that could occur.
And until the fleet managment is built into the game properly, the combat rebalance, while sounding a good idea, has just made the "balancing of the game" far more unbalanced and taken the fun out it for the people who like running a single M2 around killing everything.
Seriously, its the changes to the game that have been made on the recommendation of long term players, without giving thought to how you implement the new required tactics easily, that make the game so damn frustrating at times to play.
The combat as you describe it DEMANDS fleet management.
The game doesnt have any.
And thats why so many people get frustrated at losing their M2's for no apparent reason. Its too hard to set up the support you describe and the results are just not good enough when you try to because the AI just cant handle fleet management well enough to co-ordinate a fleet unit.
Back to the guide though, its nice to finally understand why the complaints have been thick and fast. Now that I do, I dont think I will bother with capital ships at all, since apparently all I need is a large group of expendable M5's.
Edit : After answering another thread, I would be quite happy if the fleet and trading managements were released as an add-on. I realise there is a lot of work in them, and that it needs to be paid for. But they would need to be a lot easier to use than existing scripts.
OOS stuff:
X3s OOS combat is actually better than X2s in a lot of ways but not without its problems. Any players report the problems and Egosoft have so far tried to fix them in each patch. Theres been atleast 3 patches tweaked to improve OOS combat that im aware of so far. But thats not individual changes, thats just patches that have seen OOS change. M1s and M2s have already had their shields proved. Thats 2 changes, The power generators where improved, thats 2 more changes. So you see when i say a patch has been tweaked, i am counting only patches not minor changes.
Guides and PDFs:
Actually if you go to my respawn site and look at those little icons next to the guides name you will see theres a download as pdf option there for everything on respawn.
Fleet Combat:
We really should start a new thread about this, its a huge topic and i think most of us want to see X improve this area of the game. After reading a few posts it seems we all want roughly the same things too for the same reasons.
So if somebody wants to start a new thread, please do and be sure to pm me a link because im busy right now but would very much love to take part in such a thread.
Giskard
X3s OOS combat is actually better than X2s in a lot of ways but not without its problems. Any players report the problems and Egosoft have so far tried to fix them in each patch. Theres been atleast 3 patches tweaked to improve OOS combat that im aware of so far. But thats not individual changes, thats just patches that have seen OOS change. M1s and M2s have already had their shields proved. Thats 2 changes, The power generators where improved, thats 2 more changes. So you see when i say a patch has been tweaked, i am counting only patches not minor changes.
Guides and PDFs:
Actually if you go to my respawn site and look at those little icons next to the guides name you will see theres a download as pdf option there for everything on respawn.
Fleet Combat:
We really should start a new thread about this, its a huge topic and i think most of us want to see X improve this area of the game. After reading a few posts it seems we all want roughly the same things too for the same reasons.
So if somebody wants to start a new thread, please do and be sure to pm me a link because im busy right now but would very much love to take part in such a thread.
Giskard
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apricotslice
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I have just done so.giskard wrote: Fleet Combat:
We really should start a new thread about this, its a huge topic and i think most of us want to see X improve this area of the game. After reading a few posts it seems we all want roughly the same things too for the same reasons.
So if somebody wants to start a new thread, please do and be sure to pm me a link because im busy right now but would very much love to take part in such a thread.
Giskard
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=1514378
