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jlehtone
Moderator
  
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 14599 on topic
Location: GalNet BBS
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 Posted: Sat, 17. Dec 05, 18:51 Post subject: |
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| Rapier wrote: |
| Even then, in X-Tension one had to be careful becuse a given prod_time of 1:45 acted as 1:46 because the factory only updated every 2 seconds (I believe this was fixed for X2). |
I have never seen X-Tension. Therefore I never realized that the interval in the simulation could be that long.
| Rapier wrote: |
| We don't need a neat formula, a table of production times for all yields will give us all the information we need. |
I disagree on two points:
(1) I can always generate the table from the equation in a minute. Besides, it is more convenient (for me) to calculate than to look from a table. I trust the equation which I use  Besides, if it turns out to be wrong, I change that one thing and then I immediately have more correct values. No erroneous tables lingering around. One can make the table more compact if one includes only the yields, which really exists in the game, but then it will not help scripters.
(2) We do not really want those production times. We want to know how much the mine produces, and "factory unit equivalent" is the most practical dimension for that value.
Wolf pointed out a bit older message by Birdman. That mine production table is for X2, but I bet it is a valid table for X3 too.
PS. I was interested in NPC mine production data, because it is now assumed to be yield 40 in X2 SP. Or more precisely I assume that the yield have chosen as such that with the SP equation it reflects the observed rate of production. Since I use a different equation, the yield could be different too. But 40 sounds like easy choice and could very well be the best possible answer anyway.
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Rapier
Joined: 11 Nov 2002
Posts: 5353 on topic
Location: Colchester, UK
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| Posted: Sat, 17. Dec 05, 19:20 Post subject: |
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The standard unit in UTOPIA was the production/useage of a standard factory. NPC mines produced enough to supply 1 3/5 factories, using a table or working a formula backwards gives the equivalent yield used in UTOPIA and Sector Planner.
I'm not saying a formula isn't a good thing. It can be used to generate a complete table which can then be used to calculate the production and profit per hour. The production and profit follow directly from the cycle time and amount produced per cycle, but this is exactly what we need to hypothesize our formula. A few observations should indeed enable us to gererate an pretty accurate formula. But developing perfect formula will require a complete set of observations, thus negating the need for a formula in the first place.
I take your points about practicality, and agree. I'm arguing here from the purely scientific perspective.
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RavenIII
Joined: 20 Jan 2005
Posts: 368 on topic
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat, 17. Dec 05, 20:33 Post subject: |
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Wow  wish I tried this in my X2 days... just found out how profitable the SPPs are... jeez! Anyway, great work LordSuch.
My Empire will now grow and grow 
Cheers,
RavenIII.
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jlehtone
Moderator
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 14599 on topic
Location: GalNet BBS
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| Posted: Sat, 17. Dec 05, 21:56 Post subject: |
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It is rare indeed to obtain complete and accurate observations in empirical sciences.  Hence the working hypotheses.
Reading more closely the message of Birdman, I noticed that he had actually copied it from French thread and only validated it in some points. I did comparison of my equation(s) against that data, and apart from yields 63&64 in silicon and about ten points of higher yield ores, I did obtain a perfect fit. Not only to the production time, but for the "multiply-by-integer-to-keep-cycletime-gt-60" too. The Sil 64 was a known typo anyway, and I assume that the rest are typos in the table too. Never type, if you have an equation, script, or program to do it for you systematically
Thus, I have pretty good confidence on my equations. But then again, there have not been many complaints about the equation in SP either? There is a huge difference between "perfect" and "good enough". I think we are already passed "good enough", but do enjoy everything that we reach beyond that point. Infinite Improbability Drive.
Yields 40 and 41 in Ore supply 1 3/5 factories, but in Silicon yield 39,5 woud do the same - by my calculus. Thus, 40 is definitely appropriate yield for NPC mines.
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X3R 2.5 + BP 3.1.07; Goner Pancake Protector X
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Dual Nihil
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Thu, 22. Dec 05, 02:48 Post subject: |
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Wanted add some remarks here.
First of all - mines and SPP of NPC. They have fixed rate of production
| Code: |
Factory |Cycle Time |Prod. Units | Consumed EC
Ore Mine M | 60 | 8 | 48
Ore Mine L | 60 | 20 | 120
Silicon Mine M| 118 | 4 | 96
Silicon Mine L| 118 | 10 | 240
SPP M | 60 | 132 | ---
SPP L | 60 | 330 | ---
SPP XL | 60 | 660 | ---
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As for differend RelValues - for NPC and player they are different. Player RelValues are less for goods like Rockets and Microchips, and they are greater than NPC - for Lasers and Shields
For example:
| Code: |
Ware | NPC RV |Player RV
Quantum Tubes| 120 | 100
Fighter Drone| 144 | 132
AIRE | 48 | 104
25 MJ shield | 1320 | 2520
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NPC Relvalue are used to calculate Average Price of product and cycle time (so resources needed) on NPC fabs.
Average Price for ware is counted as Const/60*RelValue
There are 4 groups of products with their own const+one for EC.
For EC C=240.
First group - basic food (Argnu Beef etc) C1=312
Second group - advanced food (Meatsteak Cahoonas ets) C2=728
Third group - high tech and rockets C3=1684
Fourth group - shileds and lasers C4=3895
C_{i+1}/C_{i}~2.3
So are observations.
Player Relvalue is used only to calculate Cycle Time of factory and resources needed.
As for secondary consumption there is not fixed rate of 1/3 or 1/6 or other for all products. I didn't manage to find mathematical function for calculating it, but found some results, observing TS and ED for disappearing goods at them.
So, I've got that there is nonlinear function between RelValue and Ratio of Consumption/Production times. I give here some examples:
| Code: |
Ware | RV | RoCP
Firefly Missile | 8 | 36,7
Warheads | 8 | 34,67
Computer comp | 48 | 2,47
Quantum tubes |120 | 1,59
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These were values only for consuming wares by ED/TS
It is likely that
RoCP(RV)=C1+ C2/RV+C3*RV^{-2}+C4*RV+C5*exp(-T)
where
C1=10.41, C2=-393, C3=5255, C4=-0.069, C5=-17858.
I can't see any hidden sense in those numbers, but at least for third group of wares it gives somewhat "not bad" approximation. Only for consuming by TS/ED.
For example, Swarm Missile Production Complex consumes Warheads approximately at 1/12 of rate they are normally produced, and Image Recognition Missile Complex - at 1/6.
Need more time to explore this aspect of in-game economy.
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boran_blok
Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 76 on topic
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| Posted: Thu, 22. Dec 05, 22:52 Post subject: |
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now this might be a veeery silly question. but when you say per hour. is that in game-time hour ? (so if I didnt use seta i'd have to wait an hour) ?
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jlehtone
Moderator
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 14599 on topic
Location: GalNet BBS
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| Posted: Fri, 23. Dec 05, 09:52 Post subject: |
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 Simply awesome!
| Dual Nihil wrote: |
| Code: |
Factory |Cycle Time |Prod. Units | Consumed EC
Ore Mine M | 60 | 8 | 48
Silicon Mine M| 118 | 4 | 96
SPP M | 60 | 132 | ---
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That means - ignoring all multipliers - that one Ore is produced in 15 seconds, which is exactly the rate of 1 and 3/5 factories. One Silicon in 59 seconds is enough for 1.59 factories. The NPC SPP production at 66 EC in 60 seconds compares to 138 EC in 59 seconds in 100% sun player SPP. Still enough to run 4.4 factories.
| Dual Nihil wrote: |
As for differend RelValues - for NPC and player they are different. Player RelValues are less for goods like Rockets and Microchips, and they are greater than NPC - for Lasers and Shields
For example:
| Code: |
Ware | NPC RV |Player RV
Fighter Drone| 144 | 132
AIRE | 48 | 104
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Thus, player weapon factories are much "slower" and drone factories slightly "faster" than their NPC competition.
| Dual Nihil wrote: |
Average Price for ware is counted as Const/60*RelValue
There are 4 groups of products with their own const+one for EC.
...
So are observations. |
I assume that the Minerals have a constant too.
| Dual Nihil wrote: |
| Player Relvalue is used only to calculate Cycle Time of factory and resources needed. |
This I have yet trouble grasping. I assume that the resource consumption per hour is constant and equivalent to 900 EC/hour. Naturally, a change in cycle time will change the number of resources required per cycle. If my assumption is valid, then there has been no effect from the change of cycle time, yet. One could change the resource consumption, but then NPC and player food fabs would not be equivalent primary resource producers. So were is the beef? In rate of production, I presume. I assume further, boldly without any evidence, that the number of products per cycle is constant and independent of the cycle time. That would make the difference. It would break the assumption that NPC and player Cahoona Bakeries do support the same amount of factories. But I think that I checked that every factory producing a ware, which is consumed by someone as primary resource, does have identical NPC and player Relvalues.
Corollary: A cycle time for a factory is valid only if all resources can be obtained in integer amounts.
| Dual Nihil wrote: |
| As for secondary consumption there is not fixed rate of 1/3 or 1/6 or other for all products. I didn't manage to find mathematical function for calculating it, but found some results, observing TS and ED for disappearing goods at them. |
Could it be possible that TS and ED have different model for consumption than the secondary resource sinks? After all, the TS and ED have to give the player a chance to buy that equipment, while a ware sold as secondary to a fab is gone for good. Thus, while NPC TS and ED are sinks, that is not their only function. Well, they are the only sinks for some product, like weapons, shields, missiles, drones, satellites, and illegals. 
So one warhead fab can fill more than 6 missile complexes? Sounds like a tough market to get a share in.
@boran_blok: Yes, game-time hours.
_________________
X3R 2.5 + BP 3.1.07; Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand. |
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Dual Nihil
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Fri, 23. Dec 05, 12:53 Post subject: |
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| jlehtone wrote: |
Simply awesome!
This I have yet trouble grasping. I assume that the resource consumption per hour is constant and equivalent to 900 EC/hour. Naturally, a change in cycle time will change the number of resources required per cycle. If my assumption is valid, then there has been no effect from the change of cycle time, yet. One could change the resource consumption, but then NPC and player food fabs would not be equivalent primary resource producers. So were is the beef? In rate of production, I presume.
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Yes, resource consumption per hour is constant. But different RelValues for NPC and Player are only for High-tech and illegal (Space Fuel, Space Weed - for those player RV<NPC RV) goods. So food plants are equal.
Example:
NPC Alpha HEPT forge in Interworlds:
cycle time=2160 seconds, uses 540 EC, 90 Ore, 360 meatsteak cahoonas per cycle and produces 1 AHEPT per cycle.
(You could verify it using script editor - trade commands of station - $station->get production cycle time and $station->uses $count units of $ware per cycle)
For player Alpha HEPT forge numbers are:
cycle time=3600 seconds (1 hour), uses 900EC, 150 Ore, 600 Meatsteak cahoonas.
If you count resource consumption per hour you'll get - 540/2160*3600=900, 90/2160*3600=150, 360/2160*3600=600.
However, as resource consumption per hour is equal, NPC gets AHEPTs at 3600/2160~1.67 times faster and cheaper.
RelValue of AHEPT for player is 3600, for NPC - 2160 (this you can see yourself, also it is written in resource files TLasers.txt)
| jlehtone wrote: |
Could it be possible that TS and ED have different model for consumption than the secondary resource sinks?
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I've meant that TS and ED use one model of consumption of ware A, and factories have different rates of "utilizing" such ware A if it's secondary resources for factory.
Burianek has posted some info how it is modelled in game here:
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=113932
but only for TS and ED.[/url]
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X-it
Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 1217 on topic
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Mon, 2. Jan 06, 14:27 Post subject: |
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I'm a bit curious about the future of Sector Planner now after 1.3 when the X-Universe changes continously. I'd still love to see a finished version.
Would it be possible to have Sector Planner import the X-Universe everytime it was started, so that it was always updated with the latest factory locations? And even perhaps a 'changes since last session'-list would be great.
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apricotslice
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 10984 on topic
Location: Mapping beyond the Unknown Regions.
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jlehtone
Moderator
Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 14599 on topic
Location: GalNet BBS
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| Posted: Mon, 2. Jan 06, 15:34 Post subject: |
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| X-it wrote: |
| Would it be possible to have Sector Planner import the X-Universe everytime it was started, so that it was always updated with the latest factory locations? And even perhaps a 'changes since last session'-list would be great. |
What if you play 4 parallel games?
The X2 version did read in the output of Logaan's companyvalue script. So basically, dump the state from the game and read it into the editor. Naturally, it would be nice to read in the savegame directly, but ...
So, write a X3 script that enumerates NPC stations and writes the result to a log file. Log files are text, so changes can be diffed.
To answer the question, that is technically possible, and there is a previous similar case already. But even the shortest step for a mankind can be a huge leap for the individual who has to perform it.
_________________
X3R 2.5 + BP 3.1.07; Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand. |
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apricotslice
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 10984 on topic
Location: Mapping beyond the Unknown Regions.
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X-it
Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 1217 on topic
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue, 3. Jan 06, 12:06 Post subject: |
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Although I no longer have any problems with enemies in 1.3 (it's even more quiet than in 1.2), the X-universe is still constantly changing. Factories disappear all the time, with the following BBS messages explaining how why, and new factories are popping up somewhere else.
So I would agree that Sector Planner would be of little use now if it didn't have some sort of update system, I'm afraid. Hope it doesn't involve so much work that the project is cancelled.
Still Sector Planner is useful to calculate how many factories you need in loops/complexes and to estimate profits etc., so it's still a great tool.
Btw I just donated £30 to Sector Planner, and encourage everyone else to do the same...
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LordSuch
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 200 on topic
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| Posted: Sun, 22. Jan 06, 15:36 Post subject: |
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X3: Sector Planner v1.1 Released
Firstly thank you to all those who have donated. Development couldn't have continued without your support.
--
An update to X3: Sector Planner has been released which should fix the majority of the inconsitencies with product prices and factory production.
The fix list is:
Fixed (hopefully) product price issues
Sorted incorrect station definitions
Integrated updated Sector View by Sirus
Fixed mine production rates
Changed secondary resource consumption rate (see change list for full details
Different "relvalues" for player and NPC are now implemented
Fixed a number of issues that occurred when adding NPC factories
User interface made more modern and fixed a few minor UI related issues
Fixed a few products that were appearing multiple times in the resource lists
Fixed a few minor redraw problems with the new "curvy" sectors
Changed the background in the main map area
Various other minor look & feel alterations
As usual you can download it from:
As always, if you find any bugs, or have any feature suggestions, please let me know through the "Feature Request" form on the website.
Cheers
LS
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X3: Sector Planner Thread
Last edited by LordSuch on Sun, 22. Jan 06, 18:22; edited 1 time in total |
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speeduk
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 124 on topic
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| Posted: Sun, 22. Jan 06, 18:15 Post subject: |
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I have .net v2 installed and only have 56k so can't get v1.1.
Oh well.
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