[MOD] Ship Rebalance Mod ver 0.59 [30/08/2009] + 2 COCKPIT PACKS + Alkeena's BSD!!!!

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OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 02:04

I've become mired. :oops: I'm simply stuck and lost. Types seems to be okay, but the rest is just...wow. I think it would turn out much easier starting from scratch.

I could upload my "personal" copy that I've modified a bit to keep it v2.5 compatible and making sense...I'll do that later.
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Gavrushka
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Post by Gavrushka » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 10:02

To wade through someone elses dirty laundry is the most difficult of tasks - To do so when they are also washing the smelly pants of several other modders must be nigh on impossible - I've followed your progress with Draffult and have understood the difficulties you've had - In the past I hae written compilers and even built simple CPUs from logic gates alone, but I would have been clueless with what you've had to sift through.

Inspiration quote for the day:

Obstacles are those things we focus on when we lose sight of our Goal.

SRM works at the minute, albeit poorly - It has been a very short time since you started worked on this and your progress to date is outstanding. Leave it for a while - take a holiday - (to Italy and beat someone else with a naughty stick) - I will try and devote some of the Christmas Holidays to becoming an expert - A living Mecca for all scripters and modders across the land - and will hopefully then be fully qualified to make the drinks and sandwiches for the likes of you.

I look forward to the upload, and on behalf of everyone who uses this Mod thanks for taking this on! :)
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paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 11:53

It must be very soul destroying to try to deal with something as complex like this. We are all very grateful for your attempts to resurrect this mod.

Starting from scratch may be a major problem. It would be months of work to get back to where this mod currently is.

I think this may be the best way to proceed:

We have to accept that we are stuck wtih the versions of the bug fix mod and BSD mod that are currently merged.

In my opinion thats not such a bad thing. I think the BSD is the same version anyway and there are no major bug fixes that we are missing out on. For me the current versions work fine and would be acceptable to build on.

That means the only things we need to do is get updated versions of the cockpit mod and the trails mod and their creators are at least fairly active. Then we just build on the existing SRM mod.

Personally I use PSCO1s cockpit mod. I think its the most complete one. Does anyone use the other one? So how about we only update this one?

Killerog has already said he will make an updated version of his trails mod that is compatible with the existing SRM, so hopefully that will be fairly straight forward.

I have a 2.5 compatible version of the SRM too. It was a fairly simple fix. I have also edited the cockpit mod to remove the blue tint to the cockpit windows, to use a dimmer version of the space dust and to put back some of the hud. There are easy instructions on how to do this in PSCO1's main thread.

The current SRM mod with a 2.5 fix works absolutely fine. The main issues for me are fine tuning the balancing. For example, I think Someone Else nerfed the Boreas a little too much considering it is one of the most expensive destroyers. Its too much like an M7 at the moment.

To be honest I could put up with the versions of the cockpit and trail mods already here too if I had to. I think the most important thing is to keep this going as its a great mod and just needs a little tinkering.

I've started to delve recently into the workings of some of the mods. I wish I had a bit more time then I would try and help a bit more.

OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 15:44

The problem with all these mods is dodging around mixed files...for example, every one of the mods (SRM, Shawn, PSCO1, BugFix, and Trails) edits the TShips file. On the version draffutt so kindly provided, that's 426 lines on my 1024x768 monitor, meaning they extend far off the side ofthe screen...each needing the piece from every mod to work in the most desirable way...it makes my mind numb.

As to your suggestion of fixing up the other mods (and you whole post in general :D)...I don't really have any brainpower at the moment (5:43 AM and I don't drink caffeine). I'll read it all again after I get up and remember what the heck I'm talking about. :p
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killerog
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Post by killerog » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 16:01

My trails mod is fairly easier to add, only changes 1 or 2 numbers in Tships. Ill go into more detail when i get home from uni. I will also provide the updated files needed.
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paulwheeler
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Post by paulwheeler » Thu, 12. Nov 09, 17:34

The thing is that if we accept we are stuck with the versions of the bug fix mod and the BSD mod that are already merged, then we only need to worry about the changes the trails and cockpits mods make.

So for tships for example, you just take the current file from the existing SRM, add in whatever changes there have been in the trails mod and the cockpit mod since the versions already here (which hopefully you can get from the authors as Killerog has just kindly offered to do!) and its done.

We know which versions of the trails mod and cockpits mods are already merged so finding out what has been changed should be fairly straight forward and there probably hasn't been much at all anyway.

I think a good place to start is just update the trails mod for now as Killerog is on hand to help and take it from there.

draffutt
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Post by draffutt » Fri, 13. Nov 09, 05:03

OOZ662 wrote:(SRM, Shawn, PSCO1, BugFix, and Trails) edits the TShips file. On the version draffutt so kindly provided, that's 426 lines on my 1024x768 monitor, ...it makes my mind numb.
to save you some brain power the t files i had uploaded where based on SRM's 59's. just updated to 2.5 with my lastest updates added. so baring i made an error in an update you should only need to update shawn, PSCO1, trailes, and hanger mods)
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Liath
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Post by Liath » Fri, 20. Nov 09, 21:25

Just an idea I've been playing with here, something I'd really like to see.

For one, I'd like to see more balance in equality for the ships all-round, with better emphasis on the race's style:

Argon:
All-rounders, with specialization for ships. Average shield/weapon/cargo but each ship has something it is designed to do.

Boron:
Emphasis on shielding, technical type weapons. They're peaceful mostly, so they wouldn't have a crap-tonne of weapons. They'd have technical stuff like the IonD, Ion Cannon, etc -- and the energy to supply em. More of the 'cripple them and leave them' types.

Split:
Weapons, weapons, weapons. Lots of weapons. And some speed. They think shields are for pansies. Hit first, hit hard, and the enemy isn't *there* to fight back.

Paranid:
Stuck up technocrats. Likes flashy weapons. Kinda average s/w/c along the lines of Argon, but with weapon specialization. Love PSGs and the like.

Teladi:
Profitssssss! Huge cargo holds = more profits. Technically inept tech thieves. Borrow a little here, steal a little there. Good shielding (protect profits), slower (shoulda scavenged a better drive), mix-up of weapons. Not gimped, but require finesse to handle just right.

Terran/ATF:
All-rounders, with emphasis of "take no prisoners". They don't wanna *capture* you -- they want you to go boom. Other than that, kinda all-round ships. Not uber-fast/powered like they are now. Terrans could rule the universe in no time in vanilla.

Pirates:
Well, they're pirates. Emphasis in speed and weapons that will make people bail. Almost like the Split with emphasis on weapons, but less weapons and more speed. Decent cargo holds but not excessive like Teladi -- but they'd want somewhere to stuff all the loot! Probably sacrifice hull or something for the weapon space and cargo.


The biggest, baddest thing I would like to see, and haven't understood why this hasn't been thought of yet: Emphasis on the side turrets on destroyers/capships. The front and back should have some cover, but the sides or top/bottom (depending on shape of ship) should be where the weapons are! I've never quite gotten the 8/8/8/8/4/2 thing that we have now. The sides of the ship have all the space to mount huge weapon batteries! I think it would make it more tactical, and fun. Front guns might have long-range heavy-hitters for closing, but when they get close they switch to fighter screen, turn to present the massive array of turrets on the broadsides.

For example, the Colossus -- Right now, its:
Front 4
Back 4
Right 4
Left 4
Up 2
Down 2

I would think that with the height and length of the ship, the weapon-ports would be more like this:
Front 2
Back 2
Right 6
Left 6
Up 4
Down 4

Or something similar. The Paranid ships would have more on top/bottom, 180 degree arcs and none/few on the sides/front (where would they mount em).

Would be really interesting of the broad-side of the ships could have 2-3 independent firing turrets. My fave, the Colossus:
Front 2
Back 2
Right 3/3
Left 3/3
Up 2/2
Down 2/2

This might even lead to one of my annoyances being eliminated, where some of the longer ships' weapons are ineffective (and should be not firing or should be selecting a different target) because the target is in range of the front-side turret, but the mid/rear-side turrets are actually out of range. I always thought that really gimped M1/2 ships and wasted energy.


Is this even possible, to have 2 batteries of 3 linked guns? Would turret scripts break?
If I seem super-critical lately, it's due to having played X2 and X3, which were awesome games. X:R's release was a hard fail, however there *were* improvements, especially with stations, capitals, and capturing/boarding. X4 right now feels like the best parts of X2/3 and Rebirth all got thrown out the friggin window. I'm honestly hopeful that X4 will turn out awesome, but I'm already hugely disappointed in ES as I have seen them do better and really expect more from them.

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imperium3
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Post by imperium3 » Fri, 20. Nov 09, 22:18

It is possible to have two batteries on the same side of a ship. No problem at all (look at Hyperion for an example). Only limitation is that you can only have 6 turrets in total, hence your suggested Colossus is impossible as it has 10. Effectively splitting turrets means you're going to have a blindside (which I think can be partially made up for by adding main guns to the front).

Other thing is, cool though the broadsides idea is (and much more realistic given the shape of the ships), I'm afraid that may not work either because the AI's only tactic is to charge headlong at the player, meaning most of an AI ship's guns would never be brought to bear.
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Fri, 20. Nov 09, 22:25

Yep. The AI ships would have like no weapons firing while the player stops and lets the AI ship charge straight into the player's broadside.

The Python is pretty much the only ship that's built for the AI.
Try it. =)
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Liath
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Post by Liath » Sat, 21. Nov 09, 00:39

*tear*
And I was hoping that the extra turrets would just be an extra turretID... has anyone actually tried this, or is it hard-coded into the engine or something?

I've noticed that most of the AI ships usually don't make a b-line straight on once they close to a certain distance as well... do they really just charge straight-on? 'Course, I usually don't just sit there at 0 speed either, even in a destroyer - I strafe around to keep those first volleys of PPC fire from smacking me in the face.

Also, if it were possible to put more turrets onto a ship, or even at 6, but with broadside at closer ranges, that could be as easy as editing the scripts that the AI uses for combat in capital ships.

if (range>=4000) then b-line at target; fire the huge front guns
if (range<4000) then angle to broad-side; use side guns for main cap2cap fire;use others for fighter-screen

Maybe if it *is* hard-coded, we could bug ES to see if it would be a feasible thing (and hopefully trivial) to change the turret code to allow more turrets.

If I'm thinking right, they're linked to the ship design files, and technically the 'left' turret could be anywhere you wanted it, with the turret angles and positions coded into the ship design file. Actually I seem to remember this being a bug with one of the ships... right turrets were actually one the left or something.
If I seem super-critical lately, it's due to having played X2 and X3, which were awesome games. X:R's release was a hard fail, however there *were* improvements, especially with stations, capitals, and capturing/boarding. X4 right now feels like the best parts of X2/3 and Rebirth all got thrown out the friggin window. I'm honestly hopeful that X4 will turn out awesome, but I'm already hugely disappointed in ES as I have seen them do better and really expect more from them.

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corhen
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Post by corhen » Sat, 21. Nov 09, 07:39

Hey, Someoneelse, just did a full wipe/reinstall of X3TC just to get this mod to work (had some mod interfeering with the BSD portion)

my problem is with the Ship Trails, they work fine for some ships, but just take a look at this N

Image

The heavy Dragon i spawnd didnt have ANY trails at all...

clearly the trail isnt supposed to be like that

AFAIK there are no Conflicts with mods

PS, if you couldnt guess from me Reinstalling X3TC for this one mod, LOVE THE MOD!
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Liath
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Post by Liath » Sat, 21. Nov 09, 23:27

Is FDN/SSDN compatible with this mod?
I had the mod files installed before this one, seems like something is over-writing the FDN/SSDN mod info.
If I seem super-critical lately, it's due to having played X2 and X3, which were awesome games. X:R's release was a hard fail, however there *were* improvements, especially with stations, capitals, and capturing/boarding. X4 right now feels like the best parts of X2/3 and Rebirth all got thrown out the friggin window. I'm honestly hopeful that X4 will turn out awesome, but I'm already hugely disappointed in ES as I have seen them do better and really expect more from them.

OOZ662
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Post by OOZ662 » Sun, 22. Nov 09, 13:39

corhen wrote:my problem is with the Ship Trails, they work fine for some ships, but just take a look at this N

The heavy Dragon i spawnd didnt have ANY trails at all...

clearly the trail isnt supposed to be like that

AFAIK there are no Conflicts with mods

PS, if you couldnt guess from me Reinstalling X3TC for this one mod, LOVE THE MOD!
SomeoneElse has disappeared and my brain has melted while attempting to redo this mod. Your problems stem from this using an outdated version of every one of the "supplemental" mods. So, actually, yes; your trails are working exactly as they were implemented at the time even though the trails pack has since been updated by the original author.
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imperium3
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Post by imperium3 » Sun, 22. Nov 09, 15:20

Oh, crud.

Just volunteered to help with this, now looking back through the past few pages, it seems this mod is in a real, serious mess. OOZ62, may I fire a few suggestions your way?

-Looks like you're trying to get all the merged mods updated. If I were you, I wouldn't even try - it won't be that long before they need updating again, and then you'll have the same problem.

-My recommendation to sort this mess out, is to de-merge SRM from the other mods completely. Then, a) a version is available to update without causing a huge mess, b) you can still offer a merged version as well, but just add the most up-to-date mod versions.

-The other option is to redo the mod from the ground up using as much of someone else's ideas as possible, however without his permission I can't see the mods being too happy about that.

-So if you have the TShips from the other mods, that's to say the versions that were used here, PM them or post them here, and I'll see what I can do. Looks like a lot of work, but should be doable, I think.
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