[MOD] Ship Rebalance Mod ver 0.59 [30/08/2009] + 2 COCKPIT PACKS + Alkeena's BSD!!!!

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BDStyle
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Post by BDStyle » Tue, 12. May 09, 15:32

All I can say is don't do a global increase on M6 speeds please. You will make the M3 class obsolete with turning rate increases as well. I like the fact that there is an actual choice to go for M3's right now over M6's, by raising the M6 speed globally you negate that choice.

Otherwise I look forward to checking it out.

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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice » Tue, 12. May 09, 15:45

lol

First thing I did in X3 was upgrade an M6 and make M3 obsolete ! :)

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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 12. May 09, 16:44

apricotslice wrote:You cant just add guns to a turrent.

Each gun has to be part of the model.
Hehe. You can.
In TShips you don't add guns to turrets, you add them to paths...

someone else wrote:mh ok, i'll give more weapons to side turrets... wasn't so hard... :D

wait... but the side turrets are physically 2 per side, and thus they can mount 4 weapons each side ... I need to find a place for 2 more turrets...
What I suggested requires no change at all to the scene file.
I remember very well how tricky it was to realign the Split M1/2 turrets...


The Python would still have 4 barrels on the left turret section but always 2 lasers attached to each of the 4 paths. =)
This change can be done exclusively in TShips.
someone else wrote:p.s. the link you posted is not working
This is DevNet. You'd have to enable it in your profile.
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Post by someone else » Tue, 12. May 09, 17:20

someone else ha scritto:

1)Drones will mount Repair laser (useful for MARS scripts, otherwise ininfluent).
most needed without it would just be another Ship mod
ooops... I wanted to say "drones CAN mount them..." you will need to script the reapir laser on them...
someone else ha scritto:
4) All boron small ships will have better speed and bigger shields but same turning and weapons.
More shields could be a bit to tough how about raising the Powergenerator to increase shield recharge rate a bit where possible.
mmmh... ok, maybe shields, shield/laser generator and manouverability... (sleek design so more manouverable? boh... that can be an explanation) and unchanged speed.
someone else ha scritto:
7) 8 weapon slots for the Python's side turrets but I was thinking of just adding some Flaks... what do you think?
Flak drains Laser Energy very fast and makes massiv noise. I allready use the Phasedlaser on my Raptor and Phyton with these even a sunblocker factor 300000 whant help the bandits. I like noise the Energy drain annoys me
yep!... you are cheating the weapons in... :D but I don't think many others will use the experimental beam weapons...
someone else ha scritto:
11) removing IBL compatibility from ALL Commonwealth M2, (except pirates and yakis of course) IBL is a Pirate weapon... why every f...ing ship has loads of them on board?
salvaged guns are for many the first choice till they got the cash and rank to buy the real ones
agree, but I think that PPC is more "realistic" to load on a non-Pirate M2. Anyways cash is not a problem, and you can kill ships to have them drop PPC too if they have lots on board.
All I can say is don't do a global increase on M6 speeds please. You will make the M3 class obsolete with turning rate increases as well. I like the fact that there is an actual choice to go for M3's right now over M6's, by raising the M6 speed globally you negate that choice.

Otherwise I look forward to checking it out.
ok... I was a bit overzelant... now the M6 turning is in the 4-8 range.
and no speed increase... some M6 are faster than M3... (I haven't flied much in a M3... ehehehe...)

@Gazz: will the Egosoft scripts that load NPC ships notice my changes or not? Do I need to modify them?

@everyone else: I'll wait some days for more feedback and to try to give the Python more side turrets in a less crude way that Gazz said... the other things are easy to do and would require max a day of work...

but where is delray? he is a playing expert... (lots of free time :lol:) I would like his opinion too here!
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Tue, 12. May 09, 17:31

someone else wrote:@Gazz: will the Egosoft scripts that load NPC ships notice my changes or not? Do I need to modify them?
Unless you completely add/remove laser types - no.
There is a file that defines what laser types a ship can have on board. (forgot which one =)
If this weren't the case, a Tiger would occasionally come with beam weapons in the side turrets...
But these are not in the list so they are never created automatically.

But if you find it - this would be the place to remove IBL from the default loadout of commonwealth M2.
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Post by someone else » Tue, 12. May 09, 18:00

interesting... so if I find this file (can an experienced modder point me in the right direction?)
I can say that "some" ships will have the beam weapons on board... interesting...
This will mean that much more Commonwealth ships will be boarded after this mod... :D

and for now the "no IBL on Commonwealth M2" will be on hold... I need to scan trough guides and game files... 8)

@others: where is delray? :P
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SplitBoy
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Post by SplitBoy » Tue, 12. May 09, 22:20

@someone else
Could be the "types\Jobs.pck"?

For X3-TC 2.0a it is in the 06.cat

btw.
No i did not cheat the weapons in, there are places to find them.
And i modified my TShips and TCockpits so the hughe split ships can mount them. ;)
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apricotslice
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Post by apricotslice » Wed, 13. May 09, 02:21

If you change a pirate Nova to carry PPC's, then the game will spawn all new pirate Nova's with PPC's. So be careful about gun changes in ego ships.

Pisces1
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Post by Pisces1 » Wed, 13. May 09, 08:47

Despite being good at maths and logic I decided not to contribute to the OOS combat thread because it is 9 pages long and I'd never catch up. So for now you have my full attention. I'm glad to see your discovering how many things you need to take into consideration to do good balancing, it is easy to think one thing is a good idea but miss some of the consequences.

I took a look through the stats compendium last night and picked up some inconsistancies.
First, the tokyo is way too cheap, it has 5 GJ shields, 50 hanger, infinite laser gen. It's only downside is it's small cargobay, especially when given all the terran equipment. Compare it to the Zeus at 86M and it is superior in every aspect & has a similiar cargobay. I'd guess the tokyo is worth about 80M.

Second. The Zeus, the most expensive carrier and for some reason it has inferior shields rather than the usual paranid's superior shields. I'd give it 4 GJ shields (I'm tempted by 5 but no other commonwealth carrier has 5) and/or 9000MW shield gen. Currently many other carrier are superior to the Zeus in almost everyway possible, the extra shields puts it second only to the terran one.

Personally I think the Odin should have 2000MW of laser gen. this makes it an almost destroyer but not absurd (still <half common wealth laser & 1/4 terran tokyo/destroyers). It's cargobay is also way to huge, I'd give it 8500 upgrade to 9000.

Onto M2s, I'd give the Ray either an extra 2 GJ shield or an extra 1k to the gen. Knock the cargo down to 10k.

The python like mentioned needs more weapon slots for unnerfing. I'd give a warning that if it was given more weapon slots & FAA then it could be overpowered given it's excellant speed, weapon & shield gen.

Oddy needs more shields. Given it can't take FAA or IC where it needs them, it's stats should look more like the current Boreas. Since it is slower it definitely needs to be as tough!

Never flown a M7 so no comment.

Ok, now I'm out of time, I'll have to finish the rest later.

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Post by Snowship » Wed, 13. May 09, 09:34

If you're going to add pirate weapons to pirate ships, can you add PBG's to M1/2/6(?) turrets aswell? (I know where're range short but they are a pirate weapon and no shorter than the Ions / PBE of the universe.
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Post by someone else » Wed, 13. May 09, 13:49

Splitboy wrote:@someone else
Could be the "types\Jobs.pck"?
thanks for your aid!
that file has some parameters on what CAN and CANNOT be spawned on ships... but is not very precise... I cannot wipe out IBL spawning from that.
Apricotslice wrote:If you change a pirate Nova to carry PPC's, then the game will spawn all new pirate Nova's with PPC's. So be careful about gun changes in ego ships.
are you sure? I can test that... where's the Nova in TShips.... :twisted:
I will remove IBL compatibility from all Commonwealth M2 and see what happens.

Pisces1 wrote: First, the tokyo...
got your point... but a Cost Raise is not a Rebalance... all ships can be boarded (I have payed NOTHING for my 5 M7, 2 M2 and 2 M1)
Remember that the weapons that it can munt are Terran, so power hungry (PSP and SSC) or pointless to mount on it (MAML and EMPC).
(EEEEK! MORE LASER REGEN THAN OSAKA!)
I think that taking down the laser energy and regeneration to values similar to Odin/Woden would be nice.
Cost raised to 77 milions... :P
Pisces1 wrote:Second. The Zeus...
4 GJ shields and/or 9000MW shield gen, Ok for me.
I was thinking of giving 5 GJ shields to Odysseus too... all this Shielding is really Paranid! (I was disappointed that only the teladi M2 had 5 shields...)
Pisces1 wrote:Personally I think the Odin should have 2000MW of laser gen.
Normally I didn't care too much for ATF, but after you pointed it out, I noticed it has 4 more slots for PSP, so some more regen would be nice. (no difference for SSC).
Pisces1 wrote:Onto M2s, I'd give the Ray...
Nope! I think the Ray is perfect. I fly often on it and it is fine as it is.
(it can shoot left/right turrets on a front target... 24PPC on a single enemy)
Pisces1 wrote:The python like mentioned needs more weapon slots for unnerfing.
ok for that... I'll give him 8 slots on the sides. (they have learned a dirty trick... just noticed!) No flaks, No anti-fighter.
Pisces1 wrote:Oddy needs more shields.
So it wasn't only me... 5 shields to Oddy! (and a bigger shield generator)
Pisces1 wrote:Never flown a M7 so no comment.
no problem for them... I'm a M7-flyer and I can say that only the Cerberus is crying for help "Put me some IBL on front! please...."

Pisces1 wrote:Ok, now I'm out of time, I'll have to finish the rest later.
so you have more? glad to have you here! :lol:
Snowship wrote:can you add PBG's to M1/2/6(?) turrets aswell?

Why not? Ok for that.
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Wed, 13. May 09, 14:41

someone else wrote:no problem for them... I'm a M7-flyer and I can say that only the Cerberus is crying for help "Put me some IBL on front! please...."
Yah, but do you really want to create yet another generic M7?
What for?

By it's description it's been designed as an anti-fighter platform.
Why not... make it so? Make it something special!

Add real Flak to the cockpit lasers, increase rear/up/down turrets to no less than 6 lasers each, and boost the laser generator to well above Panther/Tiger (so it can actually fire all that Flak...).
With it's small number of IBL the laser generator won't be overpowering vs cap ships.

Increase cargo bay to 4500 to account for more weapons.

Sure, it would still be weak vs capital ships (only 2 IBL...) but the bane of fighters - and nimble M6.
I might actually use the mouse targeting with Flak main guns.
Would be like a Deer Hunter game! Closer... closer... cloooooser... 8 Flak say BOOOOOOOOM!
(Do you feel lucky, punk?)


I'd also increase the speed to 135-140. Why design a light M7 specifically to battle fighters if it can not possibly catch them?

And why not 8 hangars instead of 6? Wouldn't be overpowering IMO, but add a little bit of yumminess. Just because.


Right now it has no role whatsoever. Neither vs fighters nor cap ships.
A Panther does everything better so the Cerb is 100% pointless.
Panther has 3 x 4 laser (main) Flak batteries and 2x2 which will usually be used for IBL.
So unless the Cerb get at least 3x6 and a superior laser generator, it's a lost cause.


Obviously, the easiest form of balance is to make all ships fight the same way.
2 heavy lasers in side turrets, 6-8 heavy lasers front.
Doesn't require a lot of creativity but the result is... boring.
It doesn't add any diversity to the game. No new tactics... nothing. So why bother?
The real challenge is to make ships situationally stronger.
A Shrike is a complete failure if you fly it like a Tiger or Agamemmnon. But if you fly it like a Shrike, it's a killer.

The argon and boron are allies anyway. So why not let their M7 complement each other?
The Thresher is the closest analogy to a WW2 anti-tank gun. Not extremy mobile but don't ever get in front of it.
If the Cerberus is excessively mobile and able to cover the Thresher while it does it's job...
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Post by someone else » Wed, 13. May 09, 15:22

This is an awesome point, and well explained. Your idea will be surely implemented.

I never looked at the Cerberus description, and never bothered to look at it at all... :D

So we have a new Cerberus here.... thanks Gazz! :D

This is why I have started a thread.... to receive good imputs like that on ships that actually I never flown/bothered too much myself.

Now I need to open my mind... why those ideas all of you posted never came to me? I thought to be a creative person but... :o
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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Wed, 13. May 09, 16:30

someone else wrote:This is an awesome point, and well explained. Your idea will be surely implemented.
Don't tell anyone but on my days off I am (secretly) a used car salesman.

someone else wrote:I never looked at the Cerberus description, and never bothered to look at it at all... :D
...because it sucks? Well, we all knew that. I'd never fly one of those, either! =P


But there are many things that can be done.
Like the boron heavy M6. Beautiful ship but essentially useless.
What a terrible waste.

Based on nothing but coolness of model you could turn it into the first M6M.
Add a missile turret with 2 tubes and limit the ship's missile selection to light/medium missiles. Nothing like Hammer or Tomahawk.
Missiles of maybe up to 70-90k damage.
Maybe a bit more cargo space, too.

The missile turret must be on the top. Boron ship = submarine -> vertically launched Tomahawks =)
The scene file would only need 2 additional path entries but that requires no lengthy model change. (and no big download =)
Hmm. Should be arranged behind one another and at an angle. So they look like fins when launching.

You can also do some fun stuff with scene files but most of it is probably fine tuning when the framework of a ship is defined.

Now I need to open my mind... why those ideas all of you posted never came to me? I thought to be a creative person but... :o
First, cut some triangle shaped holes into your tinfoil hat. It may save you from certain mind control rays but you can also use it to tap into the aliens' communication!
Or did you think those were all my ideas?
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Pisces1
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Post by Pisces1 » Thu, 14. May 09, 05:53

Pefect idea for the cerberus. Those are the kind of ideas this mod needs. I'd buy a car.

The heavy hydra idea is...creative...Now your trying to sell me an American car, it has some enthuasium behind it but I'm afraid of everything that could go wrong. It can already launch missiles after all (the hydra not the car).

To me there is little wrong with the heavy hydra, it is definitely fast & tough, and the exact middle for everything else. It has 2 less weapon slots than all other M6+ & costs 10M more. If you line it up with the heavy centaur you can see your choices, more agility, cargo & weapons for the argon & more speed, weapon gen. & shield gen for the boron. It seems about right, the H. centaur would win in a dogfight but the boron have more staying power. Except the H. hydra cost 10M more...I'd either drop the cost by 10M or give the hydra more weapon slots, I think in the form of a new turret or more slots for the turrets, the plain hydra already fills the front on assault role, the heavy hydra can protect the hydra.

Also, someone suggested increasing the hydra's weapon gen. to 2000. Every other M6 has 300-500, why does the hydra have so much more? (perhaps there is a good reason for this). Also it has very large cargobay.

Now the springblossom, I think the whole forum needs to sit down and have a discussion about the springblossom and what to do about it. I personally love the speed and we can presume the aldrins constantly tuned it faster so they could get around their nightmarish sector (why didn't they just tow the stations all to one place?). For some reason these tunes seemed to come to the expense of nothing. I'm a supply/demand sort of guy (despite being a hippie) & I don't think it is a question of whether it should cost more, it is a question of how many times more? Double? Triple? The cargobay should never max more than 1000, I just accumulate junk in mine because I am never going to fill the cargobay. Other potential nerfs include agility, speed (even though I like it), no PSSCs, less guns on main turret, less laser gen. I don't know what is best.

The hyperion's cargobay could also do with a nerf.

The truelight seeker is begging for more shields BUT this would likely f with the quest to board it, I think enough people have trouble with it as is.

On to M3s. For some reason almost every boron fighter seems to be the cheap option.

The barracuda seems to be the exception to this, not that it isn't a cheap fighter, it's just that it is expensive. Why pay 200'000 less for a barracuda which is vastly inferior in every possible way except speed to a nova, or 100'000 less compared to the all-round superior (except agility, which in M3s is excess anyway) mamba? I don't think boron should be filling the cut-price fighter role, I think the argon, OTAS (if they sold M3s) & teladi should and at least if you're going to make cheap fighters, give some value for money. With 3 25MJ shields and 750 shield gen. then it will still be the least dangerious fighter, but atleast it would have some toughness.

The falcon sentinel needs 5*25MJ shields instead of 2 * 200 and maybe an extra 30 to the cargobay. This makes it still the toughest M3 around equal to the scimitar and put it in line with the other falcons as the slightly slower and slightly tougher cousin. Importantly it will me there will be more arguements on the forum over which ship to use in carriers, the sentinels still rule if you love survivable-ammo using fighters but now some people might start considering M3+s or even different M3s!!

The M3+s are actually fairly well balanced, this is interesting because they are new and egosoft usually screws up everything new. I have quite a few grumbles about boron having the cheapest ship but it is still useable. Maybe the boron need more shields and less lasers but I'd be quite worried about fixing something which isn't broke.


My posts are always way too long. I'm out of time again! You should also note that I'm not saying anything about inter-class balancing, because it is too easy to get wrong and I like being right. And I'm not saying anything about OTAS or terran. I think both are quite overpowered but I'm not sure how they should look if they were changed.

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