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KillingMonkey
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Post by KillingMonkey » Mon, 19. Jan 09, 21:05

It's ok... But the Woden is a bit overrated, for me at least... Boasting SSCs isn't that outstanding... Even with a combo of PSPs... I'd look for a ship more or less balanced between rate or fire of weapons and power of weapons to be a personal 'flagship' (mobile HQ)... The optimal, in my opinion, would be an Odysseus, escorted by one or two Deimosi (plural of Deimos), for a few fighters ... But its' Paranid, so it's out of the count... Seeing that the Woden is basically an Odin with more shielding and greater hull integrity but essentially the same in aspect of weapons and available combinations... I'd opt, if i was to equip one, for a balance of SSCs, some PSPs and M/AMLs... But seeing how that didn't really work with my Tyr since it got hammed (made into ham, I mean) in roughly eight to nine seconds... And that's considering that the Tyr actually has more shielding and hull integrity than the Odin and Woden... The Woden is a carrier, I'll give it that, but not a better one than the Odin, the all-mighty Norse God might have more hangar space but it lacks the 'superior' turret power of the Woden... But for a carrier that isn't that much of an importance... For me the carrier should be the ship that carries craft and deploys them to fight, instead of it itself doing all the combat... With the possibility of landing a few side-shots to an enemy capital... The condition an Odin can surely coup with...
But packing a capital, any capital, with only the slow firing Terran super weapons ( the PSP in particular) isn't really a good idea... Ok... They might do like the most damage ( x3tc.ru says 95 ***) but they are soooo slow that it's more or less a one-shot deal... You fire two, three, four shots at the max and you get served scrap for dinner... And they, thanks to their slowness, are essentially useless against fighters or even the M6 and upper classes of ships... Which is bad when you get swarmed by small pesky bug-like things... And I don't mean the spaceflies... They are squishable... Try hitting an M5 with a PSP... Total waste of time...
So, for weapons I'd go for a mixture of PSPs and SSCs on the front and sides and a combo of M/AMs and SSCs on the upper and lower turret, also some M/AMs in the back... Unfortunately, that won't work since the PSPs, which are my main anti-capital weapons, are slow as retarded snails and I'll probably end up dead in the blink on an eye..
Ok... I, and probably you, got a bit lost in my ranting on the let-downs and minuses of having an ATF (or Terran for that matter) capital as a flagship... I can go on at it for hours, but I'm lazy and mostly tired...

All I'm saying is that you could give the player something actually suitable for a mobile base... Something that would work in most cases and in others will have a backup plan...
The Tyr would be a good solution, but since the plot is somewhat about intervening and gathering information about other races, why not make it so it would have more weapons available... Like some of the flaks on the vertical (upper/lower) turrets and a Gauss Cannon in the front turret... And some Bomb Launchers (maybe both incendiary and frag) for the sides... And PPCs to make it better... And just for the usefulness of it, why not add a 6-8-10 fighter bay... Filling the role of a specialized mobile field base completely...
This is how it could be done (in the game)...
Sometime during the separate plot (hopefully we'll see one soon, shout if you need help with the story) you are asked to deliver certain weapons to the Saturn Research Station... After you bring them you continue with the plot and after some time you're asked to return to the station... There you find a special one off Tyr especially for you... Of course no gift from the ATF has ever come without a catch (like the Mafia... Strange...).. You are to use the new ship in a few extra hard missions that make you do almost suicide raids on Xenon sectors with the aid of some other ships, ofc ... After that you are 'strangely' left with the ship at your disposal... Then you get a message from 'your boss' that you can keep the ship, since it was a prototype and newer, better, ships are being made... That's one of the possible scenarios for getting the 'improved Tyr'...

Ok... One question- Do you get anything of what I'm saying? Cause I sure as hell have trouble understanding me...
To each, his own.

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Seathal
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Post by Seathal » Mon, 19. Jan 09, 22:52

Hmmm I think the only flaw of the Woden is the relatively small hangar bay (and maybe the appearance, that's more personal). It haves better shielding and better weaponry than the Odin, just smaller capacity (44 versus 30, not so dramatic either) and it's faster too. I don't know, I wouldn't give away the design of the Valhalla anyways, it's an unique and exclusive ship; the Wooden otherwise would be a good "final prize", given the fact it's always fancy to have a ship noone else in the Universe haves (well, maybe some lucky test pilots and their crews, but they don't get to have real fun with it), and after all is a good ship (despite smaller hangar bay or looks).

And if you don't like it you can always sell it! It's the most expensive M1...

I said I'd give the reward to _buy_ the ships, not the ship themselves. It's enough a bonus to let you buy a ship you wouldn't be able to buy otherwise. Thinking of using the "inactive" ATF ranks to set ATF capital ships to one of each: Aegir to rank 8, Skirnir to 9, Tyr to 10 and Odin to 11. And so it would be easier to handle the missions, you'd just have to give away the correct ammount of reputation and you'd get automatic access to those ships at the Torus (I'd have to change the Torus propierty though). If I don't figure anything better out it's what I'll do.

As for the Woden I think I can make a "Bonus" mission. Thinking of the ATF guys contacting you, telling you they lost contact with one of their top-secret prototype capital ships that was in a test run in the outter Solar System (aka, the Unknown sectors on the east). That they need your help to go along with a taskforce group of the ATF/USC (by that time you'll probably already have a frigatte, destroyer or something similar.

When you arrive at the first Unknown Sector you get ambushed by the Xenon, a big task force, you defeat them and you continue down, on the second and thrid sector you find Xenon frigattes, destroyers and carriers you have to destroy to make your way to the lastest unknown sector, where you find the Woden drifting in space, with its shields completelly destroyed and with the hull ehavily damaged, no weapons; a huge sitting duck.

You have to set a defensive perimeter and prepare for the last Xenon attack (they obviously want either to capture or destroy the prototype) as the USC/ATF guys retake control of the ship and begin the repairing "in-situ" of the shields and the jumpdrive. You have to restist 20 minutes or so until they're able to make it jump to a safe sector and the Xenon retreat /reinforments arrive to finish them off. Later on, after the battle you get given the Woden since the former captainw as too incompetent or was killed and the best person they thought of to try its capabilities is you.

How does it sound? It could also be, as you say, and enhanced version of the Tyr or the Odin. But not so they can mount Commonwealth weaponry, would be too... weird and forced I think, alternatives could be maybe 10m/s more of speed, 2GJ more of shields, huger cargobay, 12 turrets on the frontal instead of 8... you know these kind of things.

KillingMonkey
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Post by KillingMonkey » Mon, 19. Jan 09, 23:09

Hmmm... Good.... Yessss..... Goood.... I aproveeee..... Okkkkk.... Too much banana juice late at night causes these kinds of things...
The mission really sounds good, like something that really can happen, and probably will when testing an experimental ship in 'rogue' territory... Talking about ATF master planing...
Anywhoo... I still like the idea of an experimental Tyr that can mount the typical (as in non-Terran) weapons... Or at least some of them... I don't know... Maybe I like the idea of 12 moderately fast firing Gauss Cannons bombarding a Xenon K... Revenge anyone? :D Seriously... Homeland enemies, universe destroyers aside... Them dang Xenon have made it real personal when they destroyed my Tyr... No one has the authority to do this!! Not even me! Especially considering the fact that I capped it via no scripts, mods or alterations... Which, considering the 'base' boarding system, is a real achievement...
But still... Good plan...
To each, his own.

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Seathal
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Post by Seathal » Mon, 19. Jan 09, 23:12

KillingMonkey wrote:Hmmm... Good.... Yessss..... Goood.... I aproveeee..... Okkkkk.... Too much banana juice late at night causes these kinds of things...
The mission really sounds good, like something that really can happen, and probably will when testing an experimental ship in 'rogue' territory... Talking about ATF master planing...
Anywhoo... I still like the idea of an experimental Tyr that can mount the typical (as in non-Terran) weapons... Or at least some of them... I don't know... Maybe I like the idea of 12 moderately fast firing Gauss Cannons bombarding a Xenon K... Revenge anyone? :D Seriously... Homeland enemies, universe destroyers aside... Them dang Xenon have made it real personal when they destroyed my Tyr... No one has the authority to do this!! Not even me! Especially considering the fact that I capped it via no scripts, mods or alterations... Which, considering the 'base' boarding system, is a real achievement...
But still... Good plan...
THink about it, Tyr is badass enough as it is. If you let it have Commonwealth weapons... well Boreas would still be "fair" compared to this kinda ship. The only thing the Tyr's lacking is 12.000 cargobay like it should have, to be able to mount decent weaponry. The lakc of power of the PSP is compensated by having 36! of them. Who needs more?

It's silly that the ATF corvettes can have 9500 cargobay and the hugest, most feared of all the M2 can just carry 8000... Somehting I plan on fixing.

KillingMonkey
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Post by KillingMonkey » Mon, 19. Jan 09, 23:52

Enough with the cargo bay... It isn't enough but that's changeable... And, as I said before... Just try packing a Tyr with 36 PSPs and go against a K, like I have... Not a good idea... Ok... I admit, it's powerful... Way powerful... But power itself isn't enough... You need speed with which to bring that power to bare... And considering that you won't shoot at that K from all sides, maximum two, with possible up and down turrets, you pack one or two shots at it from each turret gun and its' over.... Ok, you might win, but that's if it's a stand off... A show down.... Immobile... How about moving in close to that K while in combat? Only the front, with the possibility of a side turret catching a possible glimpse of a hit, would be active... That's no more than 15-20 turrets.... The K had its whole side at me plus the front, plus the upper turret... And I had just my measly 8 slow front guns... Doing little more than hitting shields... That's a personal experience, but a mighty convincing at that... It might have been my mistake... Who knows... I'm not making any excuses and certainly not crying back to my mommy... Now considering the other forces that are bound to be escorting a K.... Odds are slowly falling, my friend...
Look, I'm not rushing you or pushing you to making anything the way 'I want it'... Hell it is your mod after all and it's you who decides what to implement in it... Hell... I don't even use ATF ships no more... Well, I do plan of trying to cap another Tyr, buuuttt.... Distant future... And with an Odysseus I don't really think I need one...
Look, just do what you want on this part (and the mod as a whole)... I'm behind you whatever you do... My Monkey Ninjas are also... Which most of the time isn't a good thing but in your case, I'll make an exception...
To each, his own.

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Seathal
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Post by Seathal » Tue, 20. Jan 09, 00:05

You can't pack a Tyr with 36 PSP currently :P Maximum is 32 and you can't even get that due the ridiculous cargospace.

And I don't know what happened to you... Might be silly asking but.. did you have the proper shields on? That beast can mount up 12 GJ of shields which is way better than the K, runs faster than it... okay the weaponry might be slower but that should not be any variant over the final result.

I killed 4 and 5 Xenon capitals at _once_ back then in 1.2.1 when they spawned in large compact groups, with my Osaka, which in theory (besides cargospace) is a bit worse than the Tyr... I even killed them with frigattes.

Actually. You with 12Gj of shields, could ram an 8GJ shielded Xenon K and destroy it just by pure brute force. The enemy wouldn't evne have time to strip down 4GJ of shields if you charge at it at full speed.

KillingMonkey
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Post by KillingMonkey » Tue, 20. Jan 09, 15:40

I don't really mind you asking me anything... I did have maximum shields... They were a bit hurt from another fight in the sector... As I said it was a whole f***in' invasion with that K, a J (lol) and a few frigates that constantly irritated me... The J came down easily, the frigates I hurt badly, there were a few left... I didn't consider them a problem... Then I saw the K calmly waiting with its' port side right at me... 'Whew!' I said 'At least its' 30 km away...' Then I got the crazy idea to go for it and try and scrap it... I turned my boosters and accelerated at full... When I got in range, I just saw how my front fired no more than three to four shots of PSP fire and the side contributed with a small barrage of three more PSP shots... That got the Ks shields about to half (75% roughly)... While I was shooting at it, it opened its' port cannons and my beloved Tyr went to Valhalla... It had some kind of really fast capital gun (PPC maybe, most likely) and there was like a punctured line of shots coming at me... Now... Whatever you have on you, be it a 12GJ shield or St. Peters' armor (which according to legends can't be pierced by anything), that has got to bring you down... And it did... I was planing of maneuvering so that the left, front and upper turrets had an almost clear view of the K, but... I kinda lost the ship before I could even start...
Anyways, this topic isn't about me being kicked in the ass by a Xenon, nor about which ship/loadout is the best... I suggest we go back to topic... At least for a while...
Leave the 'reward ship' for last...
To each, his own.

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Seathal
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Post by Seathal » Tue, 20. Jan 09, 19:42

Roger!

So today I've beena very good boy and made some work. In my first attempt at scripting I managed to make Terran stations buyable at any Terran shipyard and the ATF fleet buyable at the Earth Torus (it took me a good while, mind you).

So my setup is the following.

In Shipyards of Mars, Saturn and The Moon:

- All Terran factories
- Military Base
- Orbital Patrol Base
- Orbital Defence Station

aaaand the Terran Atmospheric Lifter

Some of the stations are faulty (not really my fault, it's how it comes) and produce meatsteak cahoonas instead of what they should produce, seems that Egosoft never really finished this part. A visit to the text files should fix that up. I didn't include Orbital Logistics Dock, Orbital Supply Base or similar since they are useless for the player, and are supposed to bring primary resources from planets of the Solar System, thing I consider out of topic for my real goal.

I added the following to the almighty Earth Torus:

- Odin
- Tyr
- Skirnir
- Aegir
- Vali
- Vidar
- Fenrir
- Thor
- Mjollnir
- Valkyrie

Since there's not a plot for the ATF yet, I set those ships to the normal Terran reputation chain for their avilability. For now.

I also "fixed" the Tyr's cargobay and made it 12000. You still have to upgrade from 7k to 12k when buying it which is almost 3M more, I consider it fair.

I also wondered if I should modify the Aegir for it to beable to carry PSP's as main guns ( 8 ), and the Skirnir to be able to fit all the range of Terran missiles (not just Ghoul and Shadow) and Boarding Pods. That should make the Aegir have more punch at battles against capitals (even with PSP's it won't be unbalanced I think) and the Skinir some kind of M7/M7M. I alwyas find it silly it could fire the two biggest missiles but not the smaller ones...

I'll keep on working. WHat do you think so far?

KillingMonkey
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Post by KillingMonkey » Tue, 20. Jan 09, 21:01

Hmmmmm..... Goood joooob.... Yesss..... Reallll..... Goooooddd..... *Note to reader: I'm on both spaceweed and banana juice today, so expect alterations...*
IIIIIIIiiiiiii apppprovee and complement you on allllllll yourrrrr haaard woooork.... Cannnnn you post a Dlllllll (DL) for the 'never' versionnnn? I mean, only if you cannnn and have time tooo.... Also love those alterations you made on the M7s.... But as for the AEgiiiiir.... I'd suggggest making the sides PSP mountabllll.... Since a full 8 roundddder would makeeee it a biiiiiiit overp-p-p-p-powered against corvet-t-es and weaker frigates... Two (or four... damn x3tc.ru... at least make the positions of the turrets known...) on each side wouuuuuuuuuld be for the best, I think (probably not in my current condition, but still)... The Skirnir also deserves a makeover... Specs, I mean... I'm currently poisoning my soul with re-designing the whole ATF fleet (and some other ships).... I never didddd figure why no military Terran ship (maybe no any kind of Terran ship) mounts podddds.... Or bonggggs.... Oooopsss.... It only figures that the ATF M7m-like frigate would be able to... And I gotta asssssssssk.... Why are there more Terran missiles that are currently equippable? I mean, most of the Terran craft can only equip like three missiles- Specter, Poltergeist and Wraith... Possible alterations, but that's about it... Also there are some 'Terran' missiles that are only equippable by non-terran ships.... WTF? Annnyyyy wayyysss.... Goooddd Jobbbb.... Expecting a V2.0 soon....
Cheers!! *Falls down the chair...*
To each, his own.

Nekron
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Post by Nekron » Thu, 21. May 09, 17:53

Amazing idea and seems to be solid.
If it works well, you are my hero.

Props mate!

Apothecarian
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Post by Apothecarian » Wed, 5. Jan 11, 01:41

Good show mate. Does the Tyr modification require me to get the game start or what? If that is what is required, can you make the stations/ships available at Terran stations into a non .spk mod file. Heck, now that I am asking, can you make this all run with the base game (no mod pack loaded from the pre-application start)? Please?

Ronux
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Post by Ronux » Sun, 17. Jul 11, 21:07

Could I get a working download link for this game start please.

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