AI = Unemployment?

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fiksal
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by fiksal » Fri, 19. May 23, 13:50

it's just a different way of life.

most of us need work to eat, but many of us also work because they want to.

the last part will not change if somehow will live in the world that has everything

same for kids, many have them because they want to be parents
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by notaterran » Fri, 19. May 23, 15:13

So, less people working means less people paying taxes. How will the government solve this? Unless of course there will be a rise of trillionaires and only a small fraction of their income will pay for the few public services that will be needed after all :?:
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 19. May 23, 15:27

notaterran wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 15:13
So, less people working means less people paying taxes. How will the government solve this? Unless of course there will be a rise of trillionaires and only a small fraction of their income will pay for the few public services that will be needed after all :?:
You know that personal income tax is actually a small part of total tax system?

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by fiksal » Fri, 19. May 23, 15:35

notaterran wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 15:13
So, less people working means less people paying taxes. How will the government solve this? Unless of course there will be a rise of trillionaires and only a small fraction of their income will pay for the few public services that will be needed after all :?:
that all depends how many you are talking about.

is this the scenario where 90% of work replaced by automation?
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by notaterran » Fri, 19. May 23, 15:53

Ok, let's go with a worst-case scenario. 90% of the potential workforce is unemployed.
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by Chips » Fri, 19. May 23, 16:31

This argument was likely made when other advances were made - things like printing press, weaving machines and looms, tractors. It's not like we could potentially look at history and go "you know, perhaps things will change!" rather than have to hypothesise.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by fiksal » Fri, 19. May 23, 16:58

notaterran wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 15:53
Ok, let's go with a worst-case scenario. 90% of the potential workforce is unemployed.
alright, so 90% are unemployed, or lets say it another way, 90% of current work is done by automations.
most likely meaning that not only necessities but also most of the other products are produced this way. The cost, effort of production dropped significantly.

this is the society that can be covered for all basic needs and then some.

is tax system even necessary?
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by notaterran » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:19

Good point, in such a society the government could just let the unemployed starve because they don't contribute anything to the economy (obviously I hope that no government would consider that).
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by CBJ » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:33

Governments would be increasingly in the pockets of the wealthy few, who would have no incentive to distribute their wealth, so... I wouldn't dismiss the possibility that governments might do exactly that.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by notaterran » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:52

We've gone to the dystopian, worst-case scenario. I truly hope we're being alarmist and the news about BT are an isolated incident.
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by CBJ » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:56

notaterran wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 17:52
I truly hope we're being alarmist and the news about BT are an isolated incident.
The first, maybe; the second, absolutely 100% not.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by notaterran » Fri, 19. May 23, 17:57

Axeface wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 03:36
I'm just waiting for tesla to reveal the abilities of their robot, thats going to be fun, suddenly all the safe jobs are no longer safe (things like construction).
Perhaps the initial marketing will show the robot doing tasks too dangerous for construction workers.
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by Terre » Fri, 19. May 23, 18:01

notaterran wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 17:57
Axeface wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 03:36
I'm just waiting for tesla to reveal the abilities of their robot, thats going to be fun, suddenly all the safe jobs are no longer safe (things like construction).
Perhaps the initial marketing will show the robot doing tasks too dangerous for construction workers.
Like running the security off the shoulder of Orion.
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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by EGO_Aut » Fri, 19. May 23, 18:05

AI is very important to generate new perspectives. Especially in science and design, AI creates great new results, people are too simple and uncreative in their way of thinking.
Who knows, maybe someday there will be more human NPCs in X who can fly cleverly. :roll:

Jobs? Yes, of course some have to adapt, it has always been like that. Does anyone know the photos where a lot of women were typing letters on typewriters in an office? :o Or how many ppl had to build the pyramids/cathedrals for decades?

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by CBJ » Fri, 19. May 23, 18:23

EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 18:05
Jobs? Yes, of course some have to adapt, it has always been like that. Does anyone know the photos where a lot of women were typing letters on typewriters in an office? :o Or how many ppl had to build the pyramids/cathedrals for decades?
OK. Let's approach this differently. Once we have "adapted", what jobs will there be that AI cannot take over? For the purposes of this, let's assume that we just have generative AI, not full AGI, and that robotics continues to develop at its current, relatively sedate, pace, and doesn't therefore have the same kind of impact. And while we're on the subject of adapting, even if we take the BT example as a benchmark rather than the tip of the iceberg, what new jobs are we going to find for 10% of our existing workforce? What about 20% or 40%?

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 19. May 23, 18:30

EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 18:05
AI is very important to generate new perspectives. Especially in science and design, AI creates great new results, people are too simple and uncreative in their way of thinking.
LOL, you must be one of those people who doesn't understand AI - there is no new results, no creativity, only processing the existing dataset by use of mathematical operations.
There is absolutely no INTELIGENCE in Artificial Intelligence. ChatGPT can generate convincing dialogues and conversation that looks like human, but they are ambsolutely as dumb as X4:Foundation AI NPC units.

AI could help finding cure for cancer, but it won't invent it - it will simply bruteforce through the data set, but if there is no answer there, AI will keep serching for cure till the end of universe :P


Currently, I have AI chatbot IT support in my work - unless there was my issue already recorded in AI data set and I'm able to describe it in right word combination, the AI is useless Spinx that gives you a riddle "how will you convince me to let you connect with human IT support :P "

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by EGO_Aut » Fri, 19. May 23, 19:28

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 18:30
EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 18:05
AI is very important to generate new perspectives. Especially in science and design, AI creates great new results, people are too simple and uncreative in their way of thinking.
LOL, you must be one of those people who doesn't understand AI - there is no new results, no creativity, only processing the existing dataset by use of mathematical operations.
............
So you think there is no A and no I in AI?

I have a different opinion, but for me AI is not a humanoid robot that looks like a human and takes on tasks. AI is slowly but surely taking on more and more tasks, whether we like it or not. Many cannot see the forest for the trees. Music streaming, driving support, feeds/ads ....Yes its AI, yes it is an efficient evaluation of data.

It's only going to get really interesting when an AI develops consciousness, but that will take some time.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 19. May 23, 20:04

EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 19:28
It's only going to get really interesting when an AI develops consciousness, but that will take some time.
That's why I say you completely hav no idea about current so called AI.

You can take AI from X4: Foundation, you can take AI from Starcraft, make it milion times more powerful so that no human will ever be able to win against it and it will still not be INTELLIGENT, NOR CONSCIOUS.
Same as like no mater how many times and how complex you write 2+2=4, there is no intelligence behind it, its just mathematics.

It's like expecting that when you rub two wooden sticks to make fire if you rub them hard and long enough it will magically become Fusion Thermonuclear reactor.

EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 19:28
I have a different opinion, but for me AI is not a humanoid robot that looks like a human and takes on tasks. AI is slowly but surely taking on more and more tasks, whether we like it or not. Many cannot see the forest for the trees. Music streaming, driving support, feeds/ads ....Yes its AI, yes it is an efficient evaluation of data.
It's not something that will evolve from quantity into quality. We are currently ABSOLUTELY unable to make AI to be creative, all it can do is make derivative work from data set and human command input.
Hell, we are not even able to easily do the random number generator (most of RNG is not true random at all).

We might be able to make something out of neuron network eventually, but ChatGPT or similar AI bots are incapable of gaining sentience - if you think otherwise, you're basically on level of cybernetic Flat Earther.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 19. May 23, 20:23

P.S. You might wonder why I'm talking about RNG.

It's because if you can easily do total randomity, you can turn current AI into creative AI.
There will be still absolutely no sentience, but with randomity you can bruteforce creativity (while also accepting huge energy/time/power waste coz 99,99% output will be basically...a crap).


Here is agood example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kegtasP2A1c

"Halo 1 as a 1980's Anime OVA"

1) You require human input to specify the task
2) You need Halo data set
3) You need Anime OVA data set, specifically with 1980 timeline

Then AI will bruteforce 1'000'000 picture output, out of it you pick best sample and run it again (that's basically what you call AI model training) - you do this untill the output is acceptable.
There is no sentience - AI is incapable of going outside of it's data set, it's commanded task.
Hooking up RNG into the code, so it could randomly insert totally random sh*t into data set would be very good imitation of creativity. However, it would make AI less efficient at executing given task.

It won't be able to rebel, but it would probably be able to end the world, if someone will be dumb enough to wire Programming AI to NORAD and launch silos :D
Last edited by mr.WHO on Fri, 19. May 23, 20:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: AI = Unemployment?

Post by EGO_Aut » Fri, 19. May 23, 20:25

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 20:04
EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 19:28
It's only going to get really interesting when an AI develops consciousness, but that will take some time.
That's why I say you completely hav no idea about current so called AI.

.........

EGO_Aut wrote:
Fri, 19. May 23, 19:28
I have a different opinion, but for me AI is not a humanoid robot that looks like a human and takes on tasks. AI is slowly but surely taking on more and more tasks, whether we like it or not. Many cannot see the forest for the trees. Music streaming, driving support, feeds/ads ....Yes its AI, yes it is an efficient evaluation of data.
It's not something that will evolve from quantity into quality. We are currently ABSOLUTELY unable to make AI to be creative, all it can do is make d........
Then enlighten us with your wisdom.

Apparently you understand something completely different from AI than 99% from IT and engineering. Maybe it's different in Poland, but AI and informatics are like chicken and egg.

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