Russia-Ukraine War

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Observe
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 21:46

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 21:24
If Russia is concerned that the US is flying drones over international waters and feeding the collected intelligence to Ukraine for use in defending against Russia's unlawful invasion, then Russia should declare war on the US. This war would be over so much more quickly.
The U.S. and allies are already in a proxy war with Russia and as long as we continue feeding Ukraine with arms, it will continue that way for a long time, or until we dispense with the make-believe and formally declare war with Russia, or until the political winds change and the war is de-funded. My guess, is popularity with assisting Ukraine will fade and then Ukraine will be forced into a peace deal, or risk losing even more territory than they already have.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by EGO_Aut » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 21:51

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 21:24
EGO_Aut wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 19:56
chew-ie wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 16:55
RE drone stuff: no matter the details - a jet and a drone aren't normally as close as they were during the incident. There was a clear motivation behind that manouver to make it happen in the first place. The context (ongoing invasion) is also not in favour of the russian narrative.
A motivation :gruebel:
You think RU know that US give intel to UKR?

Btw I am surprised that drones are allowed to fly in free airspace and over sovereign states.
If Russia is concerned that the US is flying drones over international waters and feeding the collected intelligence to Ukraine for use in defending against Russia's unlawful invasion, then Russia should declare war on the US. This war would be over so much more quickly.
Yes for the whole mankind for sure.

@Warenwolf
Because its a drone, no pilot on it. :roll:
Who assumes responsibility in the event of a mistake? How does the drone react to commands from air traffic control? Each country has different laws for drones so that they are always safe in the air and know where they can fly and which legal regulations must be taken into account. (They are not always in international airspace). Can they react on radio orders like humans?

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Warenwolf » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 22:07

EGO_Aut wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 21:51

@Warenwolf
Because its a drone, no pilot on it. :roll:
Who assumes responsibility in the event of a mistake? How does the drone react to commands from air traffic control? Each country has different laws for drones so that they are always safe in the air and know where they can fly and which legal regulations must be taken into account. (They are not always in international airspace). Can they react on radio orders like humans?
I have no idea where you are going with this and what point you are trying to make here. Which regulations were broken by this drone? Also yes - drones are remotely controlled vehicles so the guy responding, theoretically, to radio communications is the guy controlling the drone - if so inclined.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 22:13

These drones are not autonomized, they have a pilot it's just the pilot is not sitting inside the drone, but they are in a building somewhere else piloting the drone controlling it and making the decisions for it, so any air traffic control or communications would go through those pilots, so as they are being controlled by a human in real time, they would react in the exact same way as if the pilot was on board the drone.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 22:19

That's what I meant with "details don't matter". Russia clearly made a mistake here, there is no way around it.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Warenwolf » Thu, 16. Mar 23, 22:38

chew-ie wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 22:19
That's what I meant with "details don't matter". Russia clearly made a mistake here, there is no way around it.
Mistake would imply a one-off event but for me this looks like a deliberate action.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by felter » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 00:46

The only mistake was allowing the Russian pilot who messed it up, who wasn't skilled enough for the job and shouldn't have been trusted to do it in the first place, that was the mistake. But then again, Russia keeps on making stupid mistakes one after the other, especially this past your or so. What gets me they denied it, but surely they must have known that the Americans would have filmed it, that was another mistake, one that doesn't make them look good.

It's also an escalation event, I'm sure that the Americans have their planes protecting their drones now and if the Russians go anywhere near them, they are bound to have the Americans on their backsides asap, and if the Americans were to take a pot shot at those Russians, no one would condemn them for it.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 01:02

felter wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 00:46
...and if the Americans were to take a pot shot at those Russians, no one would condemn them for it.
Except for China, India, South Africa, Iran, Belarus, N. Korea, Syria, Myanmar and most likely also Turkey, a NATO member and probably others. No, we don't want to be having one-on-one American/Russian action. With drones, we can pretend that we are not directly involved in conflict. If we move the pilot from a building somewhere into the aircraft seat, it is looked upon differently for some reason. :roll:

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15

Observe wrote:
Thu, 16. Mar 23, 18:33
Regarding the loss of the 32 million dollar drone, I think Russia came out the winner on that one. Also, the U.S. has no basis for complaint. Flying a drone in a conflict zone, is an invite to be attacked. So, the war drags on, with no end in sight and no negotiations for a viable peace deal that we know of. :(

I'm guessing that whatever agreement is eventually achieved, will be the same as could have been made last year. Namely, the four Ukrainian provinces that Russia claims as theirs become part of Russia. I don't see anything less that that being sufficient to cause Russia to stop. Sure, we can keep pouring billions of funds and weapons into the inferno, but how long is that going to be palatable to countries that are going through their own economic challenges?

There is a lot of noise about Russia running out of ammunition etc. If true, all they need to do, is hold their positions until production ramps up. I don't believe that Russia is incapable of manufacturing the necessary tools of war for as long as it takes.
that all depends what people actually want

more blood, gulags and strengthening Russian fascism?
then end the aid and you got it

wanna actually win the war?
send more hefty weapons. Send ships, planes, troops and missiles.


Europe and North America are suffering from delusion that this isn't their war. Russia and Putin at least are not sharing that delusion
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Observe » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 04:11

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15
wanna actually win the war?
send more hefty weapons. Send ships, planes, troops and missiles.
So you think that we should send troops? In other words, declare war on Russia? You realize that would likely lead to world war and probably nuclear weapons? It's true that this current half-assed drip of weapons isn't helping turn the tide and is only prolonging the agony and inevitable unsatisfactory peace.

I agree that as long as we are draining our economy over this war, we might as well send Ukraine everything we have, short of troops. This dickering over tanks and aircraft is not helping. Perhaps things will change this spring as more weapons come online.

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15
Europe and North America are suffering from delusion that this isn't their war. Russia and Putin at least are not sharing that delusion.
Well it isn't their war, at least not North America's. You know this region has been in conflict for some time and will probably simmer and boil long past any peace treaty. The question for the U.S. is does Russia present a priority national security risk at this time? Probably not. Perhaps later they will, as likely China will at some point, or Iran or someone else.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 04:30

Observe wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 04:11
fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15
wanna actually win the war?
send more hefty weapons. Send ships, planes, troops and missiles.
So you think that we should send troops? In other words, declare war on Russia? You realize that would likely lead to world war and probably nuclear weapons? It's true that this current half-assed drip of weapons isn't helping turn the tide and is only prolonging the agony and inevitable unsatisfactory peace.

I agree that as long as we are draining our economy over this war, we might as well send Ukraine everything we have, short of troops. This dickering over tanks and aircraft is not helping. Perhaps things will change this spring as more weapons come online.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 05:30

Observe wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 04:11
fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15
wanna actually win the war?
send more hefty weapons. Send ships, planes, troops and missiles.
So you think that we should send troops? In other words, declare war on Russia? You realize that would likely lead to world war and probably nuclear weapons? It's true that this current half-assed drip of weapons isn't helping turn the tide and is only prolonging the agony and inevitable unsatisfactory peace.

I agree that as long as we are draining our economy over this war, we might as well send Ukraine everything we have, short of troops. This dickering over tanks and aircraft is not helping. Perhaps things will change this spring as more weapons come online.

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 03:15
Europe and North America are suffering from delusion that this isn't their war. Russia and Putin at least are not sharing that delusion.
Well it isn't their war, at least not North America's. You know this region has been in conflict for some time and will probably simmer and boil long past any peace treaty. The question for the U.S. is does Russia present a priority national security risk at this time? Probably not. Perhaps later they will, as likely China will at some point, or Iran or someone else.
Are you kidding? Russia has ALWAYS been a national security risk. It's quite literally their raison d'être and the entire reason NATO was formed in the first place.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 10:28

Slovakya PM confirmed they will give 13 Mig-29 to Ukraine.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Falcrack » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 13:46

I'm not convinced that a war between Russia and the US would escalate to nukes. It is not a forgone conclusion by any means. Consider world war 2. The weapons of mass destruction at the time were chemical weapons. Germany had them in abundance. So did the US and Britain. Yet outside of using them to gas helpless civilians in concentration camps, they were not actually used on the battlefield. Why is that? Certainly not because Hitler was some wise, enlightened, peace loving soul. It was because like nukes today, the use of such weapons would have caused far more problems for the user than it was worth. It would have meant German cities being bombed with gas bombs. Germany knew that any use of these weapons would have resulted in retaliation on a similar or greater scale.

Nukes operate by the same logic. If Russia chose to use them as part of this invasion, or even to retain possession of lands they illegally seized since 2014, the consequences for Russia would far outweigh any benefit. Using even tactical nuclear weapons would draw NATO directly into the conflict. Use of strategic nukes on cities would lead to Russia itself (Moscow, St Petersburg, and the like) being reduced to ash. For what gain? There is no possible gain for Russia to use these weapons as their own country would cease to exist. They only really exist as a scare tactic, as a means to ensure that your enemies do not use them against yourself.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 16:24

Woah... there it is - warrant of arrest for Putin because of the war crimes done by his army while invading Ukraine. :o

@sources:
- german state media https://www.tagesschau.de/eilmeldung/ei ... -7123.html
- theguardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... war-crimes

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 17:13

I doubt Putin will let himself to be arrested as there is no cell that would fit his favorite table :P

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 17:29

chew-ie wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 16:24
Woah... there it is - warrant of arrest for Putin because of the war crimes done by his army while invading Ukraine. :o

@sources:
- german state media https://www.tagesschau.de/eilmeldung/ei ... -7123.html
- theguardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... war-crimes
What does it mean exactly, does it mean Putin cant leave the border of Russia for any meeting, unless going to a country that won't follow on this?
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by chew-ie » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 17:43

Good question... I doubt that it will be executed any time soon, but is indeed something Russia has now to deal with when moving on international ground. And it is the next chapter and an important step on working through the war crimes committed by Russia.

To me it is especially important regarding the displacement of the Ukrainian children. That move really baffled me.

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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by fiksal » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 17:52

Historical moment then, this date.
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Re: Russia-Ukraine War

Post by Tamina » Fri, 17. Mar 23, 18:42

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 17:29
chew-ie wrote:
Fri, 17. Mar 23, 16:24
Woah... there it is - warrant of arrest for Putin because of the war crimes done by his army while invading Ukraine. :o

@sources:
- german state media https://www.tagesschau.de/eilmeldung/ei ... -7123.html
- theguardian https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/ ... war-crimes
What does it mean exactly, does it mean Putin cant leave the border of Russia for any meeting, unless going to a country that won't follow on this?
If Putin travels to one of the 123 (of 193) countries acknowledging the court, then his diplomatic immunity according to international law is null and void and he has to be arrested by that country.

USA, Russia, China and India are famous examples of countries not acknowledging said court.

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