Russia-Ukraine War

[Warenwolf]

Well... to compare to bloody, hugely unpopular and a lost war - that'd be a good one, I'd enjoy it, but not out of line with Kremlin. Russia is kinda short on proud moments and proud wars. Best we can do is a WW2 celebration without acknowledging the rest of the world.

I had more in mind (and I suspect they too) the end of Chechen war 2 - when Kadyrov Senior was installed and de facto Chechenia was reintegrated into Kremlin's fold. The only reason they would mention Khasavyurt Accord.

[fiksal]

Well... to compare to bloody, hugely unpopular and a lost war - that'd be a good one, I'd enjoy it, but not out of line with Kremlin. Russia is kinda short on proud moments and proud wars. Best we can do is a WW2 celebration without acknowledging the rest of the world.

I had more in mind (and I suspect they too) the end of Chechen war 2 - when Kadyrov Senior was installed and de facto Chechenia was reintegrated into Kremlin's fold. The only reason they would mention Khasavyurt Accord.

That ending is nothing to be proud of either. Chechnya has own laws, and doesn't allow outsiders mess with it. Kadyrov is the best character Kremlin has to offer, everyone everywhere is afraid of him. Russian police would be shot dead, Kadyrov said, if they were to enter his territory; politicians publicly apologize to Kadyrov. Chechnya didn't lose that war.

Can they really be proud of WW2 since they came in initially on the side of the Nazis? I mean, sure, they realized they made a mistake after Germany betrayed them, but that's not what the Soviet Union wanted and kinda flies in the face of any so called "de-nazification" efforts of theirs or modern day Russia.

I am not really sure, we have only known facts to go on, hard to say what Stalin and his band would do if Hitler wouldn't have attacked.

As a blood thirsty murderer himself, was there a scenario when Stalin could be buddies with Hitler? Was there a scenario where Hitler didn't see Russians as lesser?

[Warenwolf]

That ending is nothing to be proud of either. Chechnya has own laws, and doesn't allow outsiders mess with it. Kadyrov is the best character Kremlin has to offer, everyone everywhere is afraid of him. Russian police would be shot dead, Kadyrov said, if they were to enter his territory; politicians publicly apologize to Kadyrov. Chechnya didn't lose that war.

Well, lets for moment look away from the obvious part that having state leader as Kadyrov on permanent basis cannot be defined as winning however you look at it .

That being said, I see Kadyrov as a client of Kremlin. I am not saying that you are wrong regarding the civil regulations and such but undeniably his military forces are integral part of the Kremlin's forces with Putin even promoting the guy*.
As we clearly can see in Ukraine where Chechens are being used as cannon fodder for Kremlin. Kinda not something an independent nation would ever willingly chosen to do (help Kremlin conquer Ukraine for....nothing?)

*https://www.dw.com/en/chechen-leader-ra ... a-63368656

[JSDD]

Can they really be proud of WW2 since they came in initially on the side of the Nazis? I mean, sure, they realized they made a mistake after Germany betrayed them, but that's not what the Soviet Union wanted and kinda flies in the face of any so called "de-nazification" efforts of theirs or modern day Russia.

No, the Soviet Union was not an ally of the Nazis. The Soviet Union and the 3rd Reich hated each other since 1933 and prepared for the war, and Molotov-Ribbentrop's pact was just an attempt to delay the inevitable war, and Stalin was aware the pact was to be broken sooner or later. Actions of the Soviet Union in 1939-1940, including the infamous treaty "On friendship and borders" with Nazis, were just to establish their own sphere of influence, not to help Hitler to expand his own one.

the only goal(s) for the nazis was to get control of the oil fields in the caucasus and the wheat areas in ukraine ... "lebensraum im osten" (a.k.a. living space in the east)
soviets just stood in the way of achieving these goals. before that, soviets "schooled" germans how to use real tanks / paratroopers and what not ...

but the same was true for the soviets ...
without azerbajans oil fields and all the grain / wheat from ukraine, communism (under lenin/stalin) wouldn't be able to develop the country in the right direction

the soviet idea / principles weren't that bad ... among the anthems they sang was "La Marseillaise" and "l'internationale". inspired by the age of enlightenment and the ideals of the french revolution, ready to shake off the "ancien regime" that held europe hostage for moer than 1000 years (after the roman era).
the only problem was, that those in power (lenin / stalin / others) tried to justify violence and oppressive measures by the state to achieve those ideals ...

[Alan Phipps]

" .. the only problem was, that those in power (lenin / stalin / others) tried to justify violence and oppressive measures by the state to achieve those ideals ..."

Unfortunately, current leadership seems bent on repeating those mistakes of the past in neighbouring nation states as well as at home.

[Sovereign01]

Let's not forget that Stalin's Great Purges left the Red Army greatly weakened and in no shape to fight the Wehrmacht, so during Operation Barbarossa the Nazis caught them with their pants down and rolled right over them. It took them months to get their shit together and turn the tide on the Eastern Front.

[fiksal]

Well, lets for moment look away from the obvious part that having state leader as Kadyrov on permanent basis cannot be defined as winning however you look at it .

That being said, I see Kadyrov as a client of Kremlin. I am not saying that you are wrong regarding the civil regulations and such but undeniably his military forces are integral part of the Kremlin's forces with Putin even promoting the guy*.
As we clearly can see in Ukraine where Chechens are being used as cannon fodder for Kremlin. Kinda not something an independent nation would ever willingly chosen to do (help Kremlin conquer Ukraine for....nothing?)

*https://www.dw.com/en/chechen-leader-ra ... a-63368656

Yep.
True as well, Chechnya by extension is functioning more as a vassal of Russia at this present moment, poking some holes into what I said.

Probably can do a thread just to Kadyrov alone. I look at him and I still wonder who needs who more, Kadyrov - Putin, or Putin - Kadyrov.

But to circle back to this topic, - he is perfectly representing the true, patriotic, ruthless, uneducated, Russian. (pro Putin's regime Russian). With all ironies intended.

Let's not forget that Stalin's Great Purges left the Red Army greatly weakened and in no shape to fight the Wehrmacht, so during Operation Barbarossa the Nazis caught them with their pants down and rolled right over them. It took them months to get their shit together and turn the tide on the Eastern Front.

All the good parts of Russian history that my school skimmed by, but mentioned enough for me to check. Now my family is no stranger to Stalin's path of blood; my great grand father was executed by that wave of Stalin's murders, family left to starve. Second irony being how my family survived and at the end became to be - pro Stalin, pro Kremlin, pro Putin, in all its forms. Survival, I suppose.

And again, survival, through indifference, through inaction, is what Russians are doing now, in this case, in this war. That and trolling some internet forums - because that's what you gotta do to keep the card house holding.
To circle back to the main thread.

[mr.WHO]

Hmm, Kazahstan is next on the list?
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/sta ... 4202058752

Looks like we will "find out" they have long standing nazi problem as well.


In other news Czech army admitted they are preparing for full scale war in near future, so it looks like more and more NATO countries starts to see Russia a long term problem.
More such dumb russian propaganda and we will eventually see NATO not only warm up, but actively seeking to get Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova as members.
Hell, if things go as they are, maybe even Kazahstan will ask for NATO mebership.

[chew-ie]

Well done, Putin.

The European parliament has declared Russia “a terrorist regime” over its brutal war on Ukraine and called on democracies around the world to follow suit.

@source: theguardian.com

[Warenwolf]

"Kremlin: Ukraine leadership can 'end suffering' by meeting Russian demands" :

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-11-24/

[felter]

"Kremlin: Ukraine leadership can 'end suffering' by meeting Russian demands" :

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kr ... 022-11-24/

The first paragraph on that story is so contradictory it beggars belief;

The Kremlin on Thursday denied that its attacks on Ukraine's electricity network were aimed at civilians, but said Kyiv could "end the suffering" of its population by meeting Russia's demands to resolve the conflict.

If they were not aimed at civilians, then they would not be suffering but acknowledging that they are suffering means they also are acknowledging they are attacking civilians, you can't have it both ways.

Even their own state sponsored press acknowledge that they are attacking civilian targets, that it's a criminal act to do so, there is no justification for doing so and they shouldn't be doing it and the press should not be making a statement that it is okay for them to do so. I do worry what will happen to that guy for saying these things, I do hope he is okay and doesn't either have a fall from a high window, stairs or a car accident.

I watched a video just the other day there, where the Ukrainians were saying if Zelensky were to agree to anything Putin says and asked for an end to hostilities, there would be rioting in the streets. That's what happens when you attack civilians, it doesn't end wars, it just makes them more determined to defeat the attackers.

[Warenwolf]

I watched a video just the other day there, where the Ukrainians were saying if Zelensky were to agree to anything Putin says and asked for an end to hostilities, there would be rioting in the streets. That's what happens when you attack civilians, it doesn't end wars, it just makes them more determined to defeat the attackers.

Indeed imho easiest way to spot "armchair generals" is that they swear by breaking of the enemy population's will thorough appliance of enough violence on that population.
What Kremlin has achieved is to instead create long term hostile nation on its borders....

[mr.WHO]

The stupid people who don't know history will be bound to repeat them on their own flesh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

BTW most people know only the appeasement towards Germany, but the article also contain Italy and Japan - none of it ends well.

We have already new Axis in front of our eyes - there is no other choice, but to act like Allies - at least this time we don't have fall of entire europe and siege of Britain, so we all can act like WW2 US (production, logistic, support & volunteers).

Ukraine is only the begining, Putin and his friends already have their hit list getting longer and longer (for example Kazahstan a few days ago) - there is NO GOING BACK to business as usual.

[chew-ie]

@mr.WHO

On that note - our former chancellor Angela Merkel reflected these days that appeasement didn't work with Putin but it might with Russia "afterwards". (that's basically what drives / drove her - the longterm development between the nations)

@source (in german, german state media): https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenp ... e-101.html

edit there's an english version @theguardian.com: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... uck-leader (that part of BoJo is both fun typical )

[Sovereign01]

All over Facebook there are useful idiots who even now claim that Zelenskyy should sue for peace with Russia and will parrot this same line in the comments for every news article about the war.

[felter]

So Putin met with mothers of soldiers he has sent to Ukraine, turns out they are Putin supporters, now I'm not going to condone him for doing so, as they all do this, for example Johnson did it when he met with family members of those who lost relatives during the pandemic, but anyone who falls for this type of crap and believes what he is saying are just pure dumb. Politicians do not want to meet up with people who are going to ask them the hard questions.

[mr.WHO]

There is some bizzare rumor from Newsweek, that in mid 2021 Russia was preparing to go to war with Japan over Kuril islands, but decided to go for Ukraine instead.
Looking at the performance of Black Sea fleet against non-existent Ukrainian fleet, I'm not suprised they discarted the idea of facing Japanese fleet.
That, also explain suprisingly big number of Japanese volunteers in Ukraine International Legion.

[fiksal]

There is some bizzare rumor from Newsweek, that in mid 2021 Russia was preparing to go to war with Japan over Kuril islands, but decided to go for Ukraine instead.
Looking at the performance of Black Sea fleet against non-existent Ukrainian fleet, I'm not suprised they discarted the idea of facing Japanese fleet.
That, also explain suprisingly big number of Japanese volunteers in Ukraine International Legion.

interesting, can't confirm that. Putin supporters may not be against that idea. Ukraine war was planned and hoped for, for awhile though.

Since the protests in Kyiv, and talk about EU membership.

[Warenwolf]

Call me cynic but this is one of the stories which you never can prove or disprove so, just like the NK's supposed claim to have landed man on the sun, it is perfect for getting traction without too many critical questions asked.
Newsweek has reputation of running such stories.

My first question would be - how come Russians would start a war about Kuril islands when it is Japanese who feel that it is their territory that is being infringed upon.

[EGO_Aut]

A former US Marine General is leading the british Wagner Battalion Prigozhin claimed that.
I wonder why they still lost the east side of Dniper/Kherson region.