The military police

[fiksal]

@mr.WHO

I would be interested to try British model. It seems more service oriented than enforcement. At least the patrol cops.

Prisons is another complex topic. There was actually a time when US prisons were reform oriented more than slave labor and punishment. I personally think the approach of reintegration is better than approach of making harden criminals.

The punishment only approach results in people you don't want to see on the streets.

@BrasatoAlBarolo

You are right! They will be called Freedom Chops

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

First of all: you shouldn't have private prisons, because private businessmen wants money, so they're asking for laws bringing slave labor or more prisoners.
I'm sure there's a lobby asking for severe punishments for small criminals: they usually don't give problems. E.g. dream punishment would be something like 10 years if I catch an 18 y.o. with a couple grams of weed: big money for the prison.

[fiksal]

Oh indeed, private prisons is a huge conflict of interest.
They should be undone and replaced with State prisons.

The so called mandatory minimums disproportionally hit minor offenses and victimless crimes. The whole weed criminalization should be undone too and all records cleared.

Some mandatory minimums can be useful though, so that certain criminals don't get to walk on murder charges because a judge feels their faith forgives them.

[Mightysword]

The problem with the police in the US is the expectation for them is way too high. Yeah I say it, our expectation is too high in term of what we expect them to be. Think about the different situations the police got called on, and ask in any other job would it be reasonable to ask an employee to mentally prepared to deal with them. You can say "moar training please!" but frankly, there is a limit what it can do, not to mention the quality. Anyone work in the US, assuming for a mid-size up company and not in a seasonal/temporary capacity probably would receive a lot of trainings. Ask yourself how deep those training goes? Frankly quite a lot of time it feels they're there more on the liability front, so the employers can say "we did train our staffs!" if something happens, they do very little in actual preparation.

Another thing is the whole 'mental healthcare' thing, I feel these days they got thrown around way too casually by politician and citizen alike, and it doesn't feel it resonates with reality well. Have anyone here ever visited or volunteered in a mental care facility before? The people who work there have my respect because honestly, because you can not pay me enough to work there as a career. I don't think anyone can last long if they're only in for the money, the people who chose that career gotta be answering a higher calling or something. You need a mental fortitude that no training can give, and can only be acquired by constant exposure. The point here is: mental care is not something that simply more money will fix. We also gotta ask ourselves why the mental state of our society reached a point that mental care become a constant topic, in other countries it's often not even a point of discussion.

Lastly, and I'm not sure if this can be fixed since it's a deep rooted in the culture. WE ARE TOO RELIANCE ON THE POLICE AND COURT IN THIS COUNTRY. Why do we need police in schools, why do they get called over every little things? There is a reason why American is called a sue happy country, even when we don't include the frivolous lawsuits, people can seriously drag each other to court over anything. My hypothesis for this is because this culture put so much emphasis on personal liberty that we often need to rely on an authority figure (judge/magistrate/police) to provide satisfaction. This in turn both overwhelm and empower those authorities. Where I came from, a lot of thing would get settled before the law enforcement got involved, but that's only possible if the people are more open to interpersonal enterprising.

[Vertigo 7]

The problem with the police in the US is the expectation for them is way too high. Yeah I say it, our expectation is too high in term of what we expect them to be. Think about the different situations the police got called on, and ask in any other job would it be reasonable to ask an employee to mentally prepared to deal with them. You can say "moar training please!" but frankly, there is a limit what it can do, not to mention the quality. Anyone work in the US, assuming for a mid-size up company and not in a seasonal/temporary capacity probably would receive a lot of trainings. Ask yourself how deep those training goes? Frankly quite a lot of time it feels they're there more on the liability front, so the employers can say "we did train our staffs!" if something happens, they do very little in actual preparation.

Another thing is the whole 'mental healthcare' thing, I feel these days they got thrown around way too casually by politician and citizen alike, and it doesn't feel it resonates with reality well. Have anyone here ever visited or volunteered in a mental care facility before? The people who work there have my respect because honestly, because you can not pay me enough to work there as a career. I don't think anyone can last long if they're only in for the money, the people who chose that career gotta be answering a higher calling or something. You need a mental fortitude that no training can give, and can only be acquired by constant exposure. The point here is: mental care is not something that simply more money will fix. We also gotta ask ourselves why the mental state of our society reached a point that mental care become a constant topic, in other countries it's often not even a point of discussion.

The pretty obvious answer is we have a society that rewards people for screwing over their fellow citizens. There's only so much of that a person can take before they snap in one fashion or another.

Lastly, and I'm not sure if this can be fixed since it's a deep rooted in the culture. WE ARE TOO RELIANCE ON THE POLICE AND COURT IN THIS COUNTRY. Why do we need police in schools, why do they get called over every little things? There is a reason why American is called a sue happy country, even when we don't include the frivolous lawsuits, people can seriously drag each other to court over anything. My hypothesis for this is because this culture put so much emphasis on personal liberty that we often need to rely on an authority figure (judge/magistrate/police) to provide satisfaction. This in turn both overwhelm and empower those authorities. Where I came from, a lot of thing would get settled before the law enforcement got involved, but that's only possible if the people are more open to interpersonal enterprising.

I'm not sure what you're even really talking about here. Civil lawsuits don't involve police in their capacity as law enforcement officers. Police officers enforce criminal code, not civil. And what you may consider frivolous may not be to the person bringing the lawsuit. That's only for a judge to decide.

[fiksal]

@Mightysword


Part of the idea defund the police is to move out its responsibilities. Better trained people can handle situation they barely can, and without guns involved.

So yeah, I am onboard with the idea that the police shouldn't do everything.

As previously we talked about, the British approach to different way of policing is curious too. Which goes back to the same idea - changing police responsibilities and approach, more into public servants than enforcers. Still will need the later too, but those are special purpose and specially trained.


And regarding training. The training and accountability of police should be higher than of a regular person / civilian.

[Observe]

We also gotta ask ourselves why the mental state of our society reached a point that mental care become a constant topic, in other countries it's often not even a point of discussion.

Considering that between 1999 and 2018, the suicide rate in the United States climbed 35%, I'd say mental care should be a constant topic, until the causes are addressed.

You are right that there are other countries who don't make as much of a "fuss" over mental health as we do. Perhaps it is because they don't have so many mentally unhealthy people? In the U.S., large number of people are stark, raving, frothing-at-the-mouth, bordering on insanity/suicide mad/sad and without hope.

Why? Fear born of financial insecurity combined with a very poor health care system may have something to do with it. Neglected children because so many single parents have to work multiple jobs to survive, may have something to do with it. You get my drift.

[mr.WHO]

We used to have welfare services where people with actual medical training would show up to deal with people and the police, if they were involved, were there only as backup. But all of that went away quite some time ago, for who knows why, and those government services were disbanded with the police taking over the responsibility of responding to calls for people with mental issues. And since then, instead of people getting help, they tend to get shot like the one guy whose mother called the police to help with her son, she answered the door when the police arrived and called her son over, he was holding a screw driver and the dumb cop responded to that by ordering him to drop the screw driver then shot him 3 or 4 times. Or another case where a guy with down syndrome and his social worker had the police called on them for some absurd reason. The guy with the issues was sitting in the middle of the road playing with a toy truck, the social worker was shielding the guy from the police that surrounded him, hands raised and telling the cops what was going on, and one of the damn cops shot the social worker. Again, these are not isolated issues.

And no, it's always the police that show up for any domestic issues.

We used to have dog catchers too that would find stray animals and take them to shelters. Again, something else the police does when called, in most states. Some states, like California, have actual sworn law enforcement officers (Humane Officers) that deal with issues of animal abuse/cruelty, dangerous animals loose in the public, etc. But most states it's the same cops that write speeding tickets. The difference between the two being one doesn't usually carry a gun, the others always do and the one is a trained animal behavior specialist, and the other is more likely to just shoot the animal.

Damn, this is so grim and bizzare. The picture looks like severe mismanagement of funds, by cutting proper services and dumping the dirty work on police.
Who is responsible for this? Local Authorities? State Authorities? Can something be done from federal level? Won't states cry that this is abuse of federal power?

Seem like shifting funds from police to proper might actually help, but as person from former communist run contry when I hear:
GOV: "Lets defund police and shift funds to other task"

I expect:
GOV: "Lets defund police"
ME: ....and?
GOV: what and?
ME: there was suppose to be a step 2? Shifting money to other task?
GOV: "There is no money, we need to cut spending"

That was standard goverment tune in Poland in 90s, during economic turmoil.
When I look at US now with COVID and economic slump that will cut tax revenue, I can't help but to see your city/state/fed officials trying to screw you over for quick cost saving.
If in 90s someone would tell me what going on in 2020, I'd say some he just watched "Escape from New York" too many times (especially that back we loved US action/SF movies from 80s).

[Mailo]

IMO Swedish/Norway prisons are TOO GOOD. They look more like a hotel than a prison.
I admit they have well developed resocialization an training/work programs for prisoners, to re-enter the society after they finish the sentence - this is something work copying.
Prison should not be cozy - you should wish to leave it as soon as possible and never get back - this is something Sweden/Norway is doing wrong.

Considering the rate of released prisoners in Norway going back to prison is the lowest in the world at 20%, compared to 60% in the US ... what exactly are they doing wrong?
Also, no prison will ever be like a hotel. In a hotel, you can leave. Imprisonment is taking away your freedom of movement. Nothing more, nothing less. And if you think that is no big deal ... just look at all the people going absolutely nuts when asked to stay mostly indoors for a couple of months to combat a pandemic, which is peanuts compared to being in prison.

Something on the subject I found rather fascinating:
TEDx talk by Jeff Rosen on the difference between German and US prisons. Jeff is a District Attorney in Santa Clara County, who went on a tour of German prisons to learn of differences in the systems. And boy are there differences in the systems. I had no idea that the percentage of people in prison in the US is the highest in the world and almost 10 times higher than in Germany.

[Mightysword]

You are right that there are other countries who don't make as much of a "fuss" over mental health as we do. Perhaps it is because they don't have so many mentally unhealthy people? In the U.S., large number of people are stark, raving, frothing-at-the-mouth, bordering on insanity/suicide mad/sad and without hope.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't say we shouldn't be making a fuss or we're just over-reacting, but like you said the problem lied in the fact we need to make a fuss about it in the first place. I'm not sure I'm able to explain my points earlier very well, so here are example about the social enterprising without the need of involving law enforcement. Basically a person fall into several jurisdictions:

- Students are the school's responsibility: things like kids getting hand-cupped and lead to the station is not a thing. The schools are granted acting authority both in and outside regarding their students. The middleschool I went to once received a call reporting that several kids wearing its uniform fighting at a nearby park, the headmaster took half of the administrative staffs with him there and drag them back to the school to face disciplinary action, no police involved.

- As working adult, you are the company's responsibility: my mother was actually the head officer for this at her work. 2 employees committed adultery, she told them to stop or face disciplinary action. A guy blow most of his salary on drinking without taking care of his family. She gave him a choice of either mending his way, or she will galvanize his wage, and each month his wife will be asked to come in to receive his salary instead. There wasn't a need for lawsuit, or a judge/magistrate involved.

- As home, you belong to the community group: usually 20-40 families are formed into a group (mandatory by the government btw) headed by an elected elder. There is a meeting each months with representatives from each family, topic include spreading new policy to everyone aware, to "Mr. A dog has been pooping on Miss. B law, do something about that please", or "I noticed there have been loud argument coming from house C, is there a problem and do you need help?", to "I've been getting report house D playing loud music late a night, stop that", also "there will be a charity drive next month, prepare to contribute what you can" ...etc... the point is this makes people aware of each other problems in the open, and can settle their dispute before it escalate. Most of the time there is no need to sic the police on your neighbor's arse.

The things is ... for any of this to work, you need to have a culture where people mentally accept that 'their affair' can be interred by someone that don't held the hard authority. The schools in my country don't need police presence because they have the (soft) authority to act. In America, they have been stripped much of that so while the sight of a student getting hand-cup by the police is an ugly sight, you gotta ask what other choice exist when schools/teachers often have to treat a thin ice without getting a scandal? In the end, the reason why police are so heavily involved in our life is because like I said, we're fiercely independent, and often response to social enterprising as "you have no right to tell me what to do!", so it's often end up having the need of a hard authority figure like the police to make people sit down.

Why? Fear born of financial insecurity combined with a very poor health care system may have something to do with it. Neglected children because so many single parents have to work multiple jobs to survive, may have something to do with it. You get my drift.

Out of these, The health care system is probably the only one I agree with you fully. On other points it's half the system, half the people own responsibility.

[Mightysword]

As previously we talked about, the British approach to different way of policing is curious too. Which goes back to the same idea - changing police responsibilities and approach, more into public servants than enforcers. Still will need the later too, but those are special purpose and specially trained.

Where I came from, the police is broken down to semi-independent tiers.

- Tier 1: one person is in charge of an area. He/she will know each families by name and vice versa. The job of this officer is doing the leg work (literally), doing foot patrol, well-fare check, and deal with minor crime involving the local. Very rare this officer will make an arrest. Petty crimes if done by a recognized local will be deal with as a warning, small fine. Repeated (minor) offend get counseling session (the "let's drop by my office for some tea" treatment), or public shaming. Crimes committed by outsiders tend to be treated a little harsher and often get escalate to the next tier, because the main job of tier 1 officer is to protect his specific area. If you live in affluence area the role of tier 1 officer is pretty minimal, but in struggle area these official often double up as first line social worker. Think of them more like a liaison between community and law enforcement, rather than being the enforcer themselves.

- Tier 2: I'm guessing this is the precinct police equivalent? They're the one doing car patrol, traffic stops, and deal with crimes too big for a lone tier 1 officer to handle. Local don't necessary know these by name, but overall don't have much animosity. They often don't deal with petty crime, and only arrive to make arrest onsite if the situation is serious.

- Tier 3: guess this is the NYPD equivalent? They show up, you know where to hide. They're the one responding to city wide 911 call, but see the police that beat down on "freedom protestors" in Asia? It's mostly these guys. They're the heavy gun of the government both in good and bad sense. They have very little connection to the communities and are strictly enforcers

From what I see in the US, tier 1 is pretty much none-existence, tier 2 is somewhat there and large city often just go straight to tier 3. The important of tier 1 is that people don't see the man in uniform as an 'active threat'. I'm not saying it's always great and rainbow, but when a tier one police show up on your door you don't just automatically assume trouble. And even if you have a feeling you're in trouble, it's not a 'I'm going to jail' kind of feeling. Also it's these officers that people usually reports their disputes or concern to, in return because the officers already know the offenders personally, they can response without fearing some kind of unknown factor, so it reduces the risk of 'shooting someone you're supposed to help" incidents.

[Vertigo 7]

We used to have welfare services where people with actual medical training would show up to deal with people and the police, if they were involved, were there only as backup. But all of that went away quite some time ago, for who knows why, and those government services were disbanded with the police taking over the responsibility of responding to calls for people with mental issues. And since then, instead of people getting help, they tend to get shot like the one guy whose mother called the police to help with her son, she answered the door when the police arrived and called her son over, he was holding a screw driver and the dumb cop responded to that by ordering him to drop the screw driver then shot him 3 or 4 times. Or another case where a guy with down syndrome and his social worker had the police called on them for some absurd reason. The guy with the issues was sitting in the middle of the road playing with a toy truck, the social worker was shielding the guy from the police that surrounded him, hands raised and telling the cops what was going on, and one of the damn cops shot the social worker. Again, these are not isolated issues.

And no, it's always the police that show up for any domestic issues.

We used to have dog catchers too that would find stray animals and take them to shelters. Again, something else the police does when called, in most states. Some states, like California, have actual sworn law enforcement officers (Humane Officers) that deal with issues of animal abuse/cruelty, dangerous animals loose in the public, etc. But most states it's the same cops that write speeding tickets. The difference between the two being one doesn't usually carry a gun, the others always do and the one is a trained animal behavior specialist, and the other is more likely to just shoot the animal.

Damn, this is so grim and bizzare. The picture looks like severe mismanagement of funds, by cutting proper services and dumping the dirty work on police.
Who is responsible for this? Local Authorities? State Authorities? Can something be done from federal level? Won't states cry that this is abuse of federal power?

Seem like shifting funds from police to proper might actually help, but as person from former communist run contry when I hear:
GOV: "Lets defund police and shift funds to other task"

I expect:
GOV: "Lets defund police"
ME: ....and?
GOV: what and?
ME: there was suppose to be a step 2? Shifting money to other task?
GOV: "There is no money, we need to cut spending"

That was standard goverment tune in Poland in 90s, during economic turmoil.
When I look at US now with COVID and economic slump that will cut tax revenue, I can't help but to see your city/state/fed officials trying to screw you over for quick cost saving.
If in 90s someone would tell me what going on in 2020, I'd say some he just watched "Escape from New York" too many times (especially that back we loved US action/SF movies from 80s).

Looks like you may have figured it out. The US isn't Poland or anywhere else. We are our own unique bundle of BS with our own unique solutions to the problems we create. Sometimes it's an easy fix, some times it aint.

Obviously gestapo police forces don't work, and arguably, that's not our solution, or even a solution for that matter. This whole gestapo police routine is nothing more than Trump creating a bogeyman out of the inner city blacks to scare suburban white voters in hopes of wining them back before the election as a distraction for his colossal failure on dealing with covid. In otherwords, it's his usual racist rhetoric playing to his base. Notice that within days of him claiming a problem existed that did not, he was able to find millions to give to police where as when covid came around, he said it was nothing, it'll magically go away, on and on for months and refused to lift a finger to help out the country.

Also bear in mind, one of Trump's many campaign "promises" was that he didn't need to send the military or bomb other countries to get them to cooperate; he's the great negotiator! But when dealing with his own citizens, especially democrat voters, it's gas them and shoot them and beat them and arrest without charge. All of this is further evidenced by the cities he's targeting, all democrat strong holds... but not St. Louis. Missouri is a deep red republican bastion, however St. Louis has surpassed even Detriot as the most dangerous city in the US. But Trump won't dare send his gestapo thugs there.

[RegisterMe]

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope.

- Winston Churchill


Six words.

[Vertigo 7]

All great things are simple, and many can be expressed in single words: freedom, justice, honour, duty, mercy, hope.

- Winston Churchill


Six words.

Six words that bear no resemblance to anything related to Trump, sadly.

[Observe]

Another rough night in Portland last night.

At least 4,000 people poured Friday night into the city’s core. It was the largest crowd since early weeks of the protests that started 58 days ago.

The presence of federal troops has made matters much, much worse. We now have protestors lobbing fireworks at the federal goons. A few days ago, protestors began bringing leaf blowers to send the tear gas back to the police. Now the police are also armed with leaf blowers. It would be humorous, if not for the dire nature of the situation.
I lived in Portland for twenty years, until I moved to a farm in the country. I have family there.

And all this amid a pandemic that is running wild in Oregon. I read yesterday, that Oregon is about where Florida was two weeks ago with the infection curve. The shit is hitting the fan from all directions.

[clakclak]

Another rough night in Portland last night.

At least 4,000 people poured Friday night into the city’s core. It was the largest crowd since early weeks of the protests that started 58 days ago.

The presence of federal troops has made matters much, much worse. We now have protestors lobbing fireworks at the federal goons. A few days ago, protestors began bringing leaf blowers to send the tear gas back to the police. Now the police are also armed with leaf blowers. It would be humorous, if not for the dire nature of the situation.
I lived in Portland for twenty years, until I moved to a farm in the country. I have family there.

And all this amid a pandemic that is running wild in Oregon. I read yesterday, that Oregon is about where Florida was two weeks ago with the infection curve. The shit is hitting the fan from all directions.

It is interesting to see how bad it apperently looks to many Americans if there flag gets involved. For example this video of federal forces tearing down a US flag held by a protestor and arresting him gained a lot of traction.

Maybe protestors should bring more American flags, to show that they are American. That would also take away power from them constantly being labled as Antifa, as there is only one Antifa current I am aware of that uses American flags during their protests. That is the Anti-German Antifa and I doubt that there are many Anti-Germans in the US to begin with.

[fiksal]

@Mightysword

Yeah that is an interesting approach too. I think in small towns in US it's the sheriff and sheriff's office that may feel the 1st tier role, but not the social worker part.

US indeed had mixed all that variations and moved straight to the enforcers. It is the easiest, especially when we forgive some crimes police commit.

Even with cops who try to get good with community I imagine it's an uphill battle as it's not clear how one distinguishes them from the masked cops beating down protestors, or riddling people and cars with bullets.

Heard an interview with Atlanta cops that were saying the system is too corrupt and needs to be cut down from the root.

[Mightysword]

Even with cops who try to get good with community I imagine it's an uphill battle as it's not clear how one distinguishes them from the masked cops beating down protestors, or riddling people and cars with bullets.

Easy, give them different uniform. I dug up an English article about it here with pictures. Been almost 20 years since I left so it seems things changed a little bit but the structure appears mostly the same. But as noted per the article, if you see someone in a full green outfit they're generally friendly (there are actually some color variation of that, from gray to pale green to the deep green you see in the article depending on the tier).

You can see a bit of irony here the highest tier police uniform is in black, because it was supposed to be intermediating ... now look at what color the majority of police in the US wear? It's no wonder why people tend to feel pressured in their presence, even if they put on a smile. Working with mass public first impression is important, there is time to look intermediating and time to look friendly. Like even when they're making arrest or escorting criminal they don't look that menacing because of the green uniform. And I'm pretty sure that's the intention behind the colors.

Another interesting thing is the dynamic between the forces. When protest happen, you will see different police forces on both side. The black enforcers are the one forming the line, beating on people just like the US. On the other side, you have the green force mingle with the crowds and try to keep control on the inside. If someone gets hurt, they can also be seen trying to create extras corridors or hauling the injured out. I mentioned these different tier are semi-independent for a reason, they all response to the government but their operational directive are different from each others.

You actually brought up a good point on how people can identify good cops vs bad cops. I still believe the polices are suffering from an ego issue born out of the unfair expectation the society thrushes upon their organization, and there are definitely quite a few bad apple spoiling the whole basket. A average policeman in the US basically has to be a one size fit all, and most would fail at that capacity. I'm not even talking about something as complicate as dealing with mental issue here. Think about in the US, a average street police has to keep watch on the traffic, responding to criminal activities on various level, answering house-calls, settle neighbor disputes, react to dosmetic violent, patrolling the streets ...etc... you want to throw something like riot control and dealing with metal disability on top of that .... I'm sorry, if you do manage to find a police officer who can excel in all of those duties, you CAN'T pay him/her enough to call it fair, and no amount of "training" will be able to produce a officer like that. The polices in the US may be failing, but IMO it's wrong to lay all the blame on them, the society pretty much set them up in a way that failure is almost a certainty.

[Vertigo 7]

Even with cops who try to get good with community I imagine it's an uphill battle as it's not clear how one distinguishes them from the masked cops beating down protestors, or riddling people and cars with bullets.

Easy, give them different uniform. I dug up an English article about it here with pictures. Been almost 20 years since I left so it seems things changed a little bit but the structure appears mostly the same. But as noted per the article, if you see someone in a full green outfit they're generally friendly (there are actually some color variation of that, from gray to pale green to the deep green you see in the article depending on the tier).

Ahh yes, green. The color of friendly people.

You can see a bit of irony here the highest tier police uniform is in black, because it was supposed to be intermediating ... now look at what color the majority of police in the US wear? It's no wonder why people tend to feel pressured in their presence, even if they put on a smile. Working with mass public first impression is important, there is time to look intermediating and time to look friendly. Like even when they're making arrest or escorting criminal they don't look that menacing because of the green uniform. And I'm pretty sure that's the intention behind the colors.

This is beyond absurd. The color of someone's uniform doesn't change what their orders are or what they want to do. There are plenty of videos of police in all sorts of colored uniforms beating the shit out of unarmed people.

Another interesting thing is the dynamic between the forces. When protest happen, you will see different police forces on both side. The black enforcers are the one forming the line, beating on people just like the US. On the other side, you have the green force mingle with the crowds and try to keep control on the inside. If someone gets hurt, they can also be seen trying to create extras corridors or hauling the injured out. I mentioned these different tier are semi-independent for a reason, they all response to the government but their operational directive are different from each others.

There's no such thing as a black or green force. Why are you making stuff up? Who are you serving by trying to confuse people with this nonsense?

You actually brought up a good point on how people can identify good cops vs bad cops. I still believe the polices are suffering from an ego issue born out of the unfair expectation the society thrushes upon their organization, and there are definitely quite a few bad apple spoiling the whole basket. A average policeman in the US basically has to be a one size fit all, and most would fail at that capacity. I'm not even talking about something as complicate as dealing with mental issue here. Think about in the US, a average street police has to keep watch on the traffic, responding to criminal activities on various level, answering house-calls, settle neighbor disputes, react to dosmetic violent, patrolling the streets ...etc... you want to throw something like riot control and dealing with metal disability on top of that .... I'm sorry, if you do manage to find a police officer who can excel in all of those duties, you CAN'T pay him/her enough to call it fair, and no amount of "training" will be able to produce a officer like that. The polices in the US may be failing, but IMO it's wrong to lay all the blame on them, the society pretty much set them up in a way that failure is almost a certainty.

You're making excuses for people that just want to hurt others and think they can get away with it just because they have a badge.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[Alan Phipps]

@ Vertigo 7: Please read what Mightysword actually wrote before ridiculing and insulting them. They are describing the policing system in Vietnam and how it works for them and so not 'making stuff up' or being 'absurd'. The fact that the system described does not exist in the USA is self-evident and does not need you to be rude about it. [/moderator hat]

As to individual police officers being overstretched and inadequately trained, prepared and equipped to meet every possible role that is asked of them, you only need to watch the police documentaries of almost any developed country to realise that that is most probably the case. It is certainly true of many officers in the UK.

Perhaps a better question is why the police who know and are uncomfortable with what is being done by other officers do not feel able to influence the situation for the better. These officers will certainly exist and probably be in the majority. I'm sure they would give reasons that include, but are not restricted to, peer pressure, unwritten and unofficial behavioural codes, and the agendas of the various tasking authorities.