Coronavirus: COVID-19

Anything not relating to the X-Universe games (general tech talk, other games...) belongs here. Please read the rules before posting.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

CBJ
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 51740
Joined: Tue, 29. Apr 03, 00:56
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by CBJ » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 11:37

They are being disclosed. With the numbers we're talking about here, there is a high chance that no trial in the world would ever have run into them, even if it had run for years. It's only now that millions are being vaccinated that we run into these extremely low risk possibilities; possibilities that are so low risk that we are still not sure whether they actually represent any increased risk at all over the background levels in the general population. And in spite of that they are still being disclosed.

User avatar
red assassin
Posts: 4613
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 15:11
x3

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by red assassin » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:14

pjknibbs wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 08:25
I'm pretty sure most of those 200-odd people will be taking a deliberate overdose of paracetamol. Taken in proper dose, paracetamol is one of the safest drugs known, with pretty much no side effects at all. The main issue with it is that the borderline between proper dose and overdose is quite easy to cross, maybe even accidentally if you're taking a lot of it for acute pain.
I don't have exact figures for paracetamol in the UK, but about 3/4 of all fatal drug poisoning cases in the UK are accidental, and in Australia 1/4 of paracetamol overdoses are accidental. More importantly for this discussion though, paracetamol usage is associated with a higher risk of liver failure, cardiovascular issues, some other issues, and mortality, even when not overdosed. Also, it doesn't actually do anything in the majority of cases. (Source: Cochrane). This study puts the increased risk of liver failure alone with proper usage of paracetamol compared to NSAIDs like ibuprofen at a bit over one in a million per year, which is still twice that of the worst case we have for the AZ vaccine at this point!
A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way

BaronVerde
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed, 16. Dec 20, 21:26
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:55

I don't get the stretch from an every day drug (with a commonly known placebo effect for mild pain treatment which makes for much of its popularity) to the vaccine.

The mere fact that the whole process in all its stages is discussed openly rises the confidence. Usually, we just don't care but rely on modern medicine without much questioning. It is only because of the last year that this became so popular. Hasn't it in modern medicine always been general practice (if not law) to inform people about risks involved, as far as they are known and quantifiable ? The evaluation process has to ensure and prove that a drug actually works and to reveal possible side effects in a reproducible way. That is to avoid that snake oil is being dealt out. But one never catches all marginal cases, that's a risk we must live (or die :gruebel: ) with.

Have only scanned over the intro, the study you linked has nothing to do with any COVID vaccine, it is a quantification of liver failure after a transplantation that became necessary because of an overdose and longterm use of certain medication (anti inflammation drugs), including Paracetamol. If you want to deduct something then 'don't abuse pain killers', but that's not news at all.

My question is: where's the link to COVID vaccine ?

Code: Select all

  /l、 
゙(゚、 。 7 
 l、゙ ~ヽ   / 
 じしf_, )ノ 

User avatar
red assassin
Posts: 4613
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 15:11
x3

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by red assassin » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 13:31

BaronVerde wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:55
My question is: where's the link to COVID vaccine ?
I thought it was fairly clear that the point was an illustration of relative risk. Certain people here seem to be of the opinion that the vaccine is unacceptably dangerous and/or that the risks are being hidden or minimised. I was pointing out that the incredibly common and safe drug paracetamol used correctly - i.e. without overdoses - is still significantly more dangerous than the vaccine, even if all of the clotting events reported are actually caused by it! But nobody thinks paracetamol is unacceptably dangerous and should be withdrawn, and we don't need paracetamol to halt a deadly pandemic.
A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way

BaronVerde
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed, 16. Dec 20, 21:26
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by BaronVerde » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 13:46

Ah, I see ! No, I didn't get that, should have read more upthread apparently. Thanks for clarifying :-)
-----------
If only I could light a fire under the darn polticians to get the vaccinations going :roll:

Code: Select all

  /l、 
゙(゚、 。 7 
 l、゙ ~ヽ   / 
 じしf_, )ノ 

User avatar
clakclak
Posts: 2817
Joined: Sun, 13. Jul 08, 19:29
x3

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by clakclak » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:19

So for those of you who got Astra Zeneca how did it feel for you?

I felt sick for a day, slept 12 hours and afterwards was back to my old cheerful self.
"The problem with gender is that it prescribes how we should be rather than recognizing how we are. Imagine how much happier we would be, how much freer to be our true individual selves, if we didn't have the weight of gender expectations." - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:50

CBJ wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 11:37
They are being disclosed.
They are? It sounds like AZ is denying there's a risk at all from their vaccine. Every drug I've ever taken has had a full disclosure of any associated risk, proven or otherwise. I'm not seeing any mention of the potential for blood clots listed on any of the popular drug info websites either.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

pjknibbs
Posts: 41359
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by pjknibbs » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 17:15

clakclak wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:19
So for those of you who got Astra Zeneca how did it feel for you?
Sore shoulder for three or four days, but no other effects at all. My brother and his girlfriend were flat out for 24 hours after taking it, though.

CBJ
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 51740
Joined: Tue, 29. Apr 03, 00:56
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by CBJ » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 19:03

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:50
They are? It sounds like AZ is denying there's a risk at all from their vaccine. Every drug I've ever taken has had a full disclosure of any associated risk, proven or otherwise.
The results of large-scale surveys based on data "in the wild" are being presented to the public pretty much as soon as they come in. If the company didn't see any such results during their trials, which is very likely given the tiny numbers involved, then they couldn't have disclosed them any earlier, could they?
clakclak wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:19
So for those of you who got Astra Zeneca how did it feel for you?
I had the sore shoulder thing for a couple of days, and I got the shivers for about 30 minutes about 12 hours after the vaccination. I didn't sleep well that night and was very tired the next day as a result, though I'm not sure how much of that was the vaccine and how much was just common or garden insomnia. Compared to the typhoid jab I once had (many years ago now), it was a breeze.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 19:45

CBJ wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 19:03
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:50
They are? It sounds like AZ is denying there's a risk at all from their vaccine. Every drug I've ever taken has had a full disclosure of any associated risk, proven or otherwise.
The results of large-scale surveys based on data "in the wild" are being presented to the public pretty much as soon as they come in. If the company didn't see any such results during their trials, which is very likely given the tiny numbers involved, then they couldn't have disclosed them any earlier, could they?
Soooo... what's their excuse for still denying it today? Scientists outside of AZ are saying there's a causal link but AZ is still saying there isn't one. Seems to me that AZ is the only organization still pretending it's not a thing. Who are we supposed to believe? I don't see what possible harm there could be by acknowledging the remote possibility of a patient developing a potentially fatal side effect. Again, that is not uncommon, and required in the states, for drug manufacturers to disclose. I mean, I see advertisements for headache meds on TV all the time where they run through a list of possible side effects including things like explosive diarrhea or death, even if highly unlikely to occur.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

CBJ
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 51740
Joined: Tue, 29. Apr 03, 00:56
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by CBJ » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:27

I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. The data so far does not indicate any link between the vaccine and the blood clots, and in fact doesn't even give a clear indication that the level of those blood clots is above the background level. If a link is actually established, or even strongly suspected, then I'd expect them to make a statement accordingly. But even if they did so, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) make any difference to the use of the vaccine based on the numbers that have been published. As has been pointed out already, there are numerous other medical treatments and procedures with far higher risks associated with them that are used routinely across the world.

It seems to me that you are just trying really hard to find some kind of conspiracy here. I mean, if what you're looking for is a reason why so much fuss is being made over such small numbers, I'd say the EU governments trying to deflect the blame for their having made such a mess of ordering the vaccines they needed would be a much stronger candidate.

User avatar
red assassin
Posts: 4613
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 15:11
x3

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by red assassin » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:53

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 19:45
Soooo... what's their excuse for still denying it today? Scientists outside of AZ are saying there's a causal link but AZ is still saying there isn't one. Seems to me that AZ is the only organization still pretending it's not a thing. Who are we supposed to believe? I don't see what possible harm there could be by acknowledging the remote possibility of a patient developing a potentially fatal side effect. Again, that is not uncommon, and required in the states, for drug manufacturers to disclose. I mean, I see advertisements for headache meds on TV all the time where they run through a list of possible side effects including things like explosive diarrhea or death, even if highly unlikely to occur.
[citation needed]
The only statements I can see from AZ just echo statements from medical regulators that there's no overall increased risk of blood clotting issues in general, and that investigation is ongoing into whether there is a link between the vaccine and specific combinations of particular clotting events and low platelet count. They pledge to continue working with medical authorities and, specifically, "will implement the recommendations of the PRAC, including the update of the product information, whilst continuing to understand the nature and relevance of these events to ensure the safe delivery of the vaccine continues". That doesn't look like a denial to me. Do you have any alternate statements from AZ?
Further, while a few scientists have suggested that the evidence is starting to point towards a causal link, and with my Bayesian hat on I don't think that's unlikely at this point, we do not yet have anything approaching a solid confirmation of this, either statistically or via a demonstrated mechanism of action.

This has been raised in this thread previously, but vaccine hesitancy is the single greatest threat to global recovery from the pandemic at this point and it's incredibly important that statements about the vaccines are precise, accurate, place risk levels in a realistic context, and don't casually cast unsubstantiated allegations of malpractice at companies and governments involved.
A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way

Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 30367
Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:43

There is a further aspect to this, not just of risk but also of impact.

If there were indeed a remote possibility of a causal link between AZ vaccine and a minute risk of getting a clot then the only person per instance who would possibly suffer such an extremely rare potential side-effect of the AZ vaccine would be that single individual concerned.

If the only available alternatives to having the AZ vaccine were for that individual not to be vaccinated or have their vaccination seriously delayed, then for each instance the people put at far greater risk of contracting Covid (along with all the further risks, inconveniences and complications that entails) would be the individual, their family, their neighbours, their habitual contacts and anyone they happened to travel with. Further follow-on infection rates may not increase linearly. I think the balance of risk and of potential impact should be pretty obvious.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:07

CBJ wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:27
I really don't understand what point you are trying to make. The data so far does not indicate any link between the vaccine and the blood clots, and in fact doesn't even give a clear indication that the level of those blood clots is above the background level. If a link is actually established, or even strongly suspected, then I'd expect them to make a statement accordingly. But even if they did so, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) make any difference to the use of the vaccine based on the numbers that have been published. As has been pointed out already, there are numerous other medical treatments and procedures with far higher risks associated with them that are used routinely across the world.

It seems to me that you are just trying really hard to find some kind of conspiracy here. I mean, if what you're looking for is a reason why so much fuss is being made over such small numbers, I'd say the EU governments trying to deflect the blame for their having made such a mess of ordering the vaccines they needed would be a much stronger candidate.
I did not say at any point people shouldn't use the vaccine. I'm saying AZ should disclose the potential risks, no matter how small, instead of the governments deciding to do that for them.

You guys made this big deal about the rushed approvals being this great and wonderful thing because they cut out the bureaucratic stuff and all the testing was done properly even if everything was rushed. Well, now here we are after the fact and something has cropped up that the testing didn't catch, even being statistically insignificant, that seems to have a small chance to kill women on birth control. Why the tap dancing around this?
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
red assassin
Posts: 4613
Joined: Sun, 15. Feb 04, 15:11
x3

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by red assassin » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:40

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:07
I did not say at any point people shouldn't use the vaccine. I'm saying AZ should disclose the potential risks, no matter how small, instead of the governments deciding to do that for them.

You guys made this big deal about the rushed approvals being this great and wonderful thing because they cut out the bureaucratic stuff and all the testing was done properly even if everything was rushed. Well, now here we are after the fact and something has cropped up that the testing didn't catch, even being statistically insignificant, that seems to have a small chance to kill women on birth control. Why the tap dancing around this?
Please, please get a calculator out and think about the numbers a little before posting misinformation. We're talking about, at most, a rate of detectable incidents of, what, two in a million or so? How big a clinical trial would be necessary to detect that? Typical clinical trial participant numbers are tens of thousands, and that goes for Covid vaccines too. You'd need a "clinical trial" of, well, more than tens of millions of people to detect an effect this tiny. This is easy to determine because, having vaccinated tens of millions of people, these suspected incidents have now reached the level of "maybe something is going on here, but maybe not". The trials were not rushed and they didn't miss things: this would never have shown up in any clinical trial in the world. AZ have responded appropriately to concerns raised by regulators; they state no increased risk of issues appeared in their own data.
A still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise, a morning filled with 400 billion suns - the rising of the Milky Way

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:48

red assassin wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:40
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:07
I did not say at any point people shouldn't use the vaccine. I'm saying AZ should disclose the potential risks, no matter how small, instead of the governments deciding to do that for them.

You guys made this big deal about the rushed approvals being this great and wonderful thing because they cut out the bureaucratic stuff and all the testing was done properly even if everything was rushed. Well, now here we are after the fact and something has cropped up that the testing didn't catch, even being statistically insignificant, that seems to have a small chance to kill women on birth control. Why the tap dancing around this?
Please, please get a calculator out and think about the numbers a little before posting misinformation. We're talking about, at most, a rate of detectable incidents of, what, two in a million or so? How big a clinical trial would be necessary to detect that? Typical clinical trial participant numbers are tens of thousands, and that goes for Covid vaccines too. You'd need a "clinical trial" of, well, more than tens of millions of people to detect an effect this tiny. This is easy to determine because, having vaccinated tens of millions of people, these suspected incidents have now reached the level of "maybe something is going on here, but maybe not". The trials were not rushed and they didn't miss things: this would never have shown up in any clinical trial in the world. AZ have responded appropriately to concerns raised by regulators; they state no increased risk of issues appeared in their own data.
You can't call these occurrences misinformation. It is happening, no matter how much you or I want it not to. I just don't get why there's such a refusal from some to acknowledge it.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

CBJ
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 51740
Joined: Tue, 29. Apr 03, 00:56
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by CBJ » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 00:22

No, red assassin said you were posting misinformation, claiming that this had something to do with the length of the clinical trials. And he reminded you of the mathematics to prove his point.

I still don't understand what point you are trying to make, though. You seem to be hell-bent on finding something wrong. But to what purpose?

Let's assume for a moment the link is proven, and that there is a 1 in 2 million chance of someone dying. Does that mean we stop vaccinating people? No, you've already agreed that that would be silly. Does it mean we do longer clinical trials in case of a future pandemic, even if that means we all stay in lockdown for 5 years or so? Also no, because no clinical trial would ever have any reasonable chance of catching something with that low a chance.

So, what then? If all you're saying is that, if the link is proved, certain groups of people should be monitored after being vaccinated, then... um, yes, that's what would happen.

Or is this just an anti-"big pharma" crusade? I mean, that's not an entirely unreasonable starting point, but in this case it may be somewhat misdirected.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 02:10

Yes, I admit I have an anti-big pharma bias but that's not what I'm getting at here. It's as simple as I've said over and over again. AZ needs to acknowledge it as a possible side effect, whether or not it can be conclusively proven, just like every other drug company does. Look at all the anti-anxiety meds out there with "suicidal thoughts" being listed as a potential side effect. That can't be conclusively proven either, but they include it as a warning for patients and doctors to make informed decisions. That's my beef with what AZ is doing (or rather not), and if I'm not mistaken, that's Felter's beef as well.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
Observe
Posts: 5079
Joined: Fri, 30. Dec 05, 17:47
xr

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Observe » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 03:58

Since we are getting all controversial, I might as well throw this one out here:

Viruses considered to have originated from human production and consumption of animals and birds:

SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome) - from Chinese live meat markets. Ebola Virus - from hunting and eating 'bush meat' (primates and other wild animals). COVID-19 (Corona Virus SARS-CoV-2) - Chinese live meat markets. HIV-1 and HIV-2 (Human Immunodeficiency Virus) - bush meat (eating Chimpanzees and other monkeys). Avian Influenza Virus - domestic birds (meat production). Swine Influenza Virus - Chinese pig farming.

With the millions of deaths and trillions of dollars being spent worldwide to combat this latest pandemic, I think it might be a good idea to take a serious look at which human behaviors we could alter, so as to discourage the emergence of future viral epidemics.

The Causal Relationship between Eating Animals and Viral Epidemics

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Coronavirus: COVID-19

Post by Vertigo 7 » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 04:58

Observe wrote:
Sun, 4. Apr 21, 03:58
With the millions of deaths and trillions of dollars being spent worldwide to combat this latest pandemic, I think it might be a good idea to take a serious look at which human behaviors we could alter, so as to discourage the emergence of future viral epidemics.
Agreed but it's not just consumption that's a causal factor. Natural food chains and wildlife habitats being destroyed by human expansion play a big part. Lyme disease, leprosy, and other often overlooked infections can be directly traced to simply clearing trees from an area to build a town.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic English”