Atheism, the discussion

Anything not relating to the X-Universe games (general tech talk, other games...) belongs here. Please read the rules before posting.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 07:41

What's that old saying, "Prayer is the last hope of the desperate"? It was made easy, especially in Christianity, where asking for forgiveness can be done at any time and that's all it takes to get your golden ticket into the ever after. It's no wonder that a lot of people suddenly find religion in prison or on the verge of their death.

I find the whole concept of some kind of after life mind boggling, personally. Be it reincarnation, being some kind of disembodied ghost like thing, or some kind of bodiless soul condemned to eternal torture or paradise. And the simple reason is medical science proves that memory is linked to the brain.

Take amnesia or Alzheimer's for example. If memory was tied to the supposed soul, then why do people experience memory impacting states? Why can someone who's lived 30+ years suffer complete amnesia and develop a completely different personality than exhibited prior to their trauma? If our "eternal soul" can't survive survive something that comparatively trivial, then what good is it, really? And what are the actual chances that you, personally, will experience any torture if you go against any sky wizard's wishes? Or what's the chances that you're gonna remember to give a crap if you're reincarnated as a dung beetle? What if you suffer complete amnesia moments before your death and don't remember to ask cloud man for permission to enter his house?

If babies aren't baptized and they die, according to christian dogma, they aren't allowed into heaven. So innocent children that aren't baptized, with or most likely without their knowledge, are condemned to hell. Totally makes sense, right? Because they've done so much wrong in their life; brand new soul entered into the world without their consent and experiences a tragedy and is made to eternally suffer.

I just don't get why anyone would voluntarily swallow any of this nonsense.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

Mailo
Posts: 1901
Joined: Wed, 5. May 04, 01:10
x3

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Mailo » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 11:03

Hilariously enough, according to several surveys (a quick google found this one, though it does not say how many people were polled; I remember reading about it much earlier as well though), a significant part of US christians believe in reincarnation. Er ... huh? I mean ... how? That contradicts pretty much every central rule of their religion?
But I'm pretty sure they are still looking down on any that are not as christian as they are. What was that line from Amish Paradise by Weird Al? "Think you're really righteous? Think you're pure in heart? Well, I know I'm a million times as humble as thou art."

As to unbaptized people / babies being condemned to hell (keep in mind there are billions of people who died before they or anyone in their vicinity even heard of christianity, those are damned as well. I assume there is a rule for people who died before christianity was invented?), one sect (was it Mormons?) found a way around that ... they started baptizing people after they died. "Luckily" for the dead, neither their nor their relatives consent was required, so they even could baptize Jews that died in the holocaust ... as you can imagine, that one went over really well.

Speaking of Mormons, in my opinion they pretty much take the cake in the "swallow nonsense" department. Their holy book was written by a guy in 1829, and it is very much reflected in the text, as it contains many references to the state of knowledge of this year, which was found to be false in the following decades. Also, the racism in the book is pretty much the state of the era. Basically, the book is proven wrong by science. Mormons must be able to ignore this dichotomy, which is why I got REALLY scared when a Mormon got quite far in the last presidential race.
As a personal service to all who try to keep up with my professional work:
[ external image ]

My script: Shiploot v1.04 ... loot shipwrecks, collect different loot parts and upgrade your ships!
Mein Skript: Schiffswracks looten v1.04 ... Durchsuche Schiffswracks, sammle Lootteile und verbessere Deine Schiffe!

pjknibbs
Posts: 41359
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 11:58

Mailo wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 11:03
As to unbaptized people / babies being condemned to hell (keep in mind there are billions of people who died before they or anyone in their vicinity even heard of christianity, those are damned as well. I assume there is a rule for people who died before christianity was invented?)
In Dante's "Divine Comedy" the first level of Hell (Limbo) is devoted to "righteous pagans", e.g. people of non-Christian origins who are nonetheless not actively evil. Basically, it's presented as a rather dull, boring place with no actual punishments but nothing much of interest happening either.

Alan Phipps
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 30367
Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 15:29

Ah, then I can think of many examples of a local Limbo (aka the first level of Hell) here in my home town. You know, as you get significantly older, they can become more attractive than some of the livelier alternatives. :wink:
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 15:41

Mailo wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 11:03
Hilariously enough, according to several surveys (a quick google found this one, though it does not say how many people were polled; I remember reading about it much earlier as well though), a significant part of US christians believe in reincarnation. Er ... huh? I mean ... how? That contradicts pretty much every central rule of their religion?
Christianity in of itself is fraught with contradiction. "you have free will", "you're following dude's plan", "do as I say or else". "homosexuality is a sin" "we're all created in god's image". Why not believe in reincarnation too?
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
fiksal
Posts: 16568
Joined: Tue, 2. May 06, 17:05
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:13

regarding babies dying, Christianity had an "out" - babies were born without a soul till they were baptized, which is also age where they are more certain to survive.


but of course that's more complex and Christians argue those points occasionally among themselves
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:23

ahh, so dunking your head in water gives you a soul. Of course!
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

pjknibbs
Posts: 41359
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:54

fiksal wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:13
regarding babies dying, Christianity had an "out" - babies were born without a soul till they were baptized, which is also age where they are more certain to survive.
Makes you wonder why the right wing in America are so anti-abortion, then, because by definition a baby in the womb can't be baptised and thus apparently has no soul!

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Thu, 12. Aug 21, 17:01

Right wingers being "pro-life" is the most absurd thing ever. Especially considering how utterly nuts they are wrt to covid and steps they're taking. Like that dimwitted Florida governer threatening to pull funds from schools that defy his order on banning mask mandates, for example.

In truth, it's just a stance to enforce their beliefs on everyone else in defiance of the 1st amendment.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
fiksal
Posts: 16568
Joined: Tue, 2. May 06, 17:05
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Fri, 13. Aug 21, 05:07

pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:54
fiksal wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:13
regarding babies dying, Christianity had an "out" - babies were born without a soul till they were baptized, which is also age where they are more certain to survive.
Makes you wonder why the right wing in America are so anti-abortion, then, because by definition a baby in the womb can't be baptised and thus apparently has no soul!
I actually googled a little before typing this to make sure I can point a century. I couldn't, because the debates in the church went every which way. And there was a time when they were against abortion of soulless babies still, which caused lots of debates if soul should be arriving earlier
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 13. Aug 21, 05:13

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 13. Aug 21, 05:07
pjknibbs wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:54
fiksal wrote:
Thu, 12. Aug 21, 16:13
regarding babies dying, Christianity had an "out" - babies were born without a soul till they were baptized, which is also age where they are more certain to survive.
Makes you wonder why the right wing in America are so anti-abortion, then, because by definition a baby in the womb can't be baptised and thus apparently has no soul!
I actually googled a little before typing this to make sure I can point a century. I couldn't, because the debates in the church went every which way. And there was a time when they were against abortion of soulless babies still, which caused lots of debates if soul should be arriving earlier
And there's the fallacy of religion; people decide what is and isn't doctrine, not divinity. People write the scriptures. People carve the tablets. And people are such a trustworthy bunch, aren't they? :roll:
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
fiksal
Posts: 16568
Joined: Tue, 2. May 06, 17:05
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Fri, 13. Aug 21, 13:18

yep


but just to clarify, I can't find exact time or people that thought babies didn't have a soul. I thought it was early medieval.
Perhaps I need to see in Orthodox.

however limbo of infants was a real place until later abolished
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

and ensoulment is a real thing for the church
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoulment
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

User avatar
fiksal
Posts: 16568
Joined: Tue, 2. May 06, 17:05
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Fri, 13. Aug 21, 13:40

good point on amnesia and various disorders.

what use is the soul that doesn't store any memory or can't think.


as for Mormons, my friend is ex Mormon, and getting out of the church is no easy feat. He told me how Mormons indeed see black people is lesser, cursed by the god
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

Vertigo 7
Posts: 3457
Joined: Fri, 14. Jan 11, 17:30
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by Vertigo 7 » Fri, 13. Aug 21, 20:45

fiksal wrote:
Fri, 13. Aug 21, 13:40
as for Mormons, my friend is ex Mormon, and getting out of the church is no easy feat. He told me how Mormons indeed see black people is lesser, cursed by the god
Your friend a guy, per chance? My friend came from a Mormon family and told me all she had to do to be excommunicated from the church was to not wear the magic underwear (real thing, look it up) and share a house with her fiancé.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a double standard at play, and likely too, her fiancé being of Mexican descent also played a factor.
The Future is Progressive!
rebellionpac.com
Fight white supremacy, fight corporate influence, fight for the rights of all peoples!

User avatar
fiksal
Posts: 16568
Joined: Tue, 2. May 06, 17:05
x4

Re: Atheism, the discussion

Post by fiksal » Sat, 14. Aug 21, 00:03

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Fri, 13. Aug 21, 20:45
fiksal wrote:
Fri, 13. Aug 21, 13:40
as for Mormons, my friend is ex Mormon, and getting out of the church is no easy feat. He told me how Mormons indeed see black people is lesser, cursed by the god
Your friend a guy, per chance? My friend came from a Mormon family and told me all she had to do to be excommunicated from the church was to not wear the magic underwear (real thing, look it up) and share a house with her fiancé.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a double standard at play, and likely too, her fiancé being of Mexican descent also played a factor.
interesting, a guy indeed, got to be a Mormon as a kid because of his father.

I don't recall details, but they wouldn't let him be for a long while. Searched for his address, went to his door many times, before giving up some years later. Or maybe they lost his new address.


what a whacky church
Gimli wrote:Let the Orcs come as thick as summer-moths round a candle!

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic English”