Planetary Protection

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 2. May 18, 22:04

Bishop149 wrote:...I don't see how it would be especially more effective than an MIRV, shorter warning sure, but what realistically can you do in that 20 odd minutes anyway (a lot less if launched from a sub sitting off your coast).
It only has to go down. Powered, it would be pretty quick. (Merely "falling" would take about 4 hours, according to some estimates I browsed.)
A counter attack can be initiated within minutes and extensive measures are in place to ensure THAT ability can't be removed by a first strike, even if the warning was zero. All such a weapon would a achieve is a reduction in the already tiny number of people that might be able to get to safety in time.
"Minutes" matter and one can't be sure the needed people are standing by, ready to hit the "Big Red Button." IIRC, estimates are, at best, 18-20 minutes to realistically order a US Counterattack. (Those are publicized numbers.) ** Note - I now recall some mention of "12 minutes" being the fastest, realistic, response time. /notsure

The one defensive advantage in the case of a satellite launch is that you will more quickly be able to tell where it is going to strike.
.. It would also be realatively easy to shoot down . . . . a lot easier to eliminate than a silo anyway.
Not in 1967. And, today, it may not be that easy. It wouldn't likely be a LEO satellite. A more "clandestine" sneak-attack against such a sat might make it more vulnerable, though.
The reason such a weapon doesn't exist isn't the Outer Space Treaty, its a cost benefit ratio calculation, it just wouldn't be worth the effort.
The whole Cold War weaponization was based on "we have something you don't or can't counter." At least, up until the point where pretty much everyone had figured out they suddenly had... too much.
Edit: Hmmmm thinking about it the best way to place such a weapon would probably be in geosync. orbit in the optimal position to hit the target. It would be beyond the reach of all but the most determined efforts to shoot it down and you wouldn't ever have to re-position it . . . . BUT the trajectory and flight time of the missiles become rather long and complicated again. Also I'd imagine putting such a thing in such a place would be an immediate act of war. Like Cuba 10-fold.
Anyone daring to do such a thing would be shot out-of-hand... Though, people have proposed that very thing in order for us to mine asteriods. Mines are great and give us access to materials we couldn't otherwise get to. But, they don't hover over our heads. (Yes, I know the Moon does and we seem fine... for now. :) )

The ever-popularized, largely thanks to "Footfall" is a KI/E Satellite - Kinetic Bombardment. One doesn't need a messy asteroids, just drop small, really fast, somewhat dense rods on their heads.

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Post by Hank001 » Wed, 2. May 18, 22:15

Morkonan wrote:
The ever-popularized, largely thanks to "Footfall" is a KI/E Satellite - Kinetic Bombardment. One doesn't need a messy asteroids, just drop small, really fast, somewhat dense rods on their heads.
There are some rather large craters in the deserts of Nevada and New Mexico from testing "Project Thor". Which Jerry and Larry knew about, but most don't. KI is now banned by treaties as is the testing.

Edit: Whoops. Read that link and it has Thor if go down to references. What they don't say was the accuracy was atrocious.
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Post by Morkonan » Wed, 2. May 18, 23:19

Hank001 wrote:..What they don't say was the accuracy was atrocious.
Today, we might be able to make them much more accurate, even self-guiding or something. Self-targetting? I remember seeing some stuff on that. Gives me the willies... But, with Hellfires, bunker-busters, submissions, JDAM, cruise missiles, DU, Fuel Air, MOABs... Do we really need another destructo-thingie?

https://i.imgur.com/PzlsQC3.png

:)

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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 3. May 18, 00:22

Inertial guidence only for a bunch of reasons (In the terminal phase).
like dopper not to mention you can't push signal through ablative plasma. In fact one of those suckers leaves such a dense ionization track that signal bounces off of it for minutes afterward. (You can see it on radar).
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 3. May 18, 14:33

Hank001 wrote:Inertial guidence only for a bunch of reasons (In the terminal phase).
like dopper not to mention you can't push signal through ablative plasma. In fact one of those suckers leaves such a dense ionization track that signal bounces off of it for minutes afterward. (You can see it on radar).
Hmmm.. So, I suppose that if anyone is looking at a screen, the signature would be undeniable.

That raises the question - Do meteorites also leave such a signature?

Aaaaand... they do!

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp ... er=7909728

Awesome! Thank you, I learned something new today! Woot! Very cool!

PS - Just thought of something! <brain splosions> IF someone reports a "UFO" and we think they're just reporting a bolide, given that we have the right equipment in place, we could answer that question immediately!

"It's a space rock, don't worry."
"OK, we checked and we can find no ionization/plasma trail on sufficiently equipped radar."
"It's not a space rock. Worry."

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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 3. May 18, 14:52

Hey thanks for the link to the cool pdf! At space surveillance sites the computers evaluate those tracks mostly to filter them out, but there are thousands a day. Space is a busy place. Talk about garbage too. Google up a space junk map. We've really trashed the orbits. Though given time what went up is going to come down. REAL FAST. :D
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 3. May 18, 15:02

Hank001 wrote:Hey thanks for the link to the cool pdf! At space surveillance sites the computers evaluate those tracks mostly to filter them out, but there are thousands a day. Space is a busy place. Talk about garbage too. Google up a space junk map. We've really trashed the orbits. Though given time what went up is going to come down. REAL FAST. :D
Yup, understood, it's just that instead of being "weather" it could be something more. I'm not in the radar field, so thinking about how to apply this "new knowledge" starts me off on weird tracks. :) Seeing that these trails can be analyzed according to the various layers of atmosphere is really interesting to me. (At least it is, today. Oh, look, something shiny...)

Unclassified info only, but how far can we go? What sized particles can we detect by their ionization trails/disturbances? There's mucho dust, so I imagine it'd be like radar snow at some point. But... as the paper is probably attempting to point out, all of that is "data" and the more of it, the better. (still working on it)

Anyway, fascinating stuff and thanks for the prompt to go hunting for it! :)

PS - Ooooh... with ionization in atmosphere comes radio waves... Just remembered that. (I hope IIRC at least. More hunting is necessary.)

PPS - This looks like fun - https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/scie ... earth.html

Find "space dust" on your own roof, today! That should be of interest to you! Go grab the vacuum cleaner and an extension cord!

(Damn, that is fookin' cool. I am very tempted. Imagine collecting a tiny little jar full of space dust! I wonder if someone would buy it? "Space dust for sale on eBay!" Wow, how would I price it? The supply is free, but collecting it and sifting it out from pollen would be a chore. Collect the ones I can with a magnet, maybe? So cool... I have read of this being done with tarps, but just didn't consider my roof as one big collection surface. There's a big field right next to me, maybe ask if I can set up a tarp or something... Separate valuable space-dust from deer-poop.)

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Post by Hank001 » Thu, 3. May 18, 15:17

Well the smaller the object the shorter the track. I've seen some that crossed a radar horizon of 500 miles! I've been out of the business for 20+ years and most radars them were all into the 1 thru 3 gigahetz bands, which are used in cellular communications now. I'd imagine with the new planar array radars they could see pretty much all of them if they were big enough to ionize the atmosphere. There wew even attempts to use them to bounce secure communications off of. Though as I said, as far as radar, it is more a matter of filtering out those trails.
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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 4. May 18, 16:44

Hank001 wrote:... Though as I said, as far as radar, it is more a matter of filtering out those trails.
That's what I would figure. But, it's "there." It ain't going away. So, if we can use it for something... (Going to build HAARP in my back yard this weekend, will probably fry a neighbor's cat or three. :) )

Anyway, it's interesting. :)

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Post by Hank001 » Fri, 4. May 18, 17:04

Morkonan said:
Anyway, it's interesting.
We used to use gear that discriminated the types of "static". Most think it's lightning, but in fact the bulk of the electrmagnetic noise is "the music of the spheres" from space, and of that ionization trails are bulk of that. They pop! The reason they aren't used for much is their utter randomness. Of terrestrial noise the real singers of the EM bands are Aurora! Sounds like discordant whale songs.

YouTube has plenty of this space noise on it's site. Though when you spend a few years trying to tune out static listening to it in leasure is something I'll take a pass on. :P
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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 4. May 18, 17:17

Hank001 wrote:...YouTube has plenty of this space noise on it's site. Though when you spend a few years trying to tune out static listening to it in leasure is something I'll take a pass on. :P
It used to be that you could just set your analog TV to "static" and listen to what was predominantly the CMB. I'm sure the move to "digital only" has something to do with the government trying to hide the truths being whispered in the CMB...

Oh, I see what you were referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_bu ... unications

Neat!

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Post by Hank001 » Fri, 4. May 18, 18:17

The move to digital was pushed throuugh by some of the most intense lobbying in American history. Pretty ill concieved considering the TV industry was in NO WAY ready for the first deadline for the switch over and it had to be pushed back continually. It's some VERY powerful lobbies wanted the frequencies that analog TV used. And some VERY powerful foreign lobbies wanted to sell the US HDTV sets. The called the the "Triple S Lobby".
Most broadcast networks fouught against this change since the higher frequecy ranges of HDTV meant new gear and even with 1000 megawatt transmitters, a smaller broadcast area without repeater stations. So yes, the cable lobbies were right there too!
Most broadcasters had to sell out to larger corporate entities because they couldn't afford the switch. Most of our locals were eaten by Raycom Media.
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