What are your opinions on fiction self publishing?
Not ebooks. those are great, and you get those for all forms of published books anyway. I mean books published independently by the author (as in on Amazon generally).
personally I haven’t found any self published fiction I’ve liked, mostly due to poor editing and overall signs of not being ready for publication before the author went ahead and self published. I’ve seen a few that were distressingly close to ready, but it’s too late now, they’ve got an ISBN number.
this has prevented me from buying and reading others, meaning I may have missed some real gems. I doubt it, but maybe.
I’d never consider self publication for my own fiction.
Non fiction yes, but self published non fiction is a different matter entirely. I’ve already done that several times in various ways over the years. Sometimes the market for non fiction is so small self publication online is the only option if you want to make enough money to make it worth the effort. I’ve bought some great self published non fiction books. I’ve used one as recommended text in my teaching.
You could go to a small press, but the online option is far better if you are, say, a hobbyist and your market is people interested in your specific area. In which case you advertise your book to that demographic, keep most, if not all of the profits, it’s all win.
Self published fiction on the other hand one book lost in a sea of steaming badly edited *smelly brown material*. The number of people who find success that way is vanishingly small. And they would probably have been better off waiting to find a conventional publisher.
In my opinion at least.
Self Publishing (Primarily Amazon)
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Self Publishing (Primarily Amazon)
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli
The sort of "dollar-store fiction" one fines exclusively in self-published e-book form, like on Amazon, is practically it's own genre. There's a wealth of "how-to's" and such, all focused on exploiting that market.
People make money doing it.
But, it's largely junk. It's not because whatever was published has been rejected by conventional publishers. That happens to decent works, too. It's because there's no practical vetting. Nobody has read the manuscript and decided "This is worth dedicating energy to so that others may read it." Most have never passed even a tertiary culling. While I think that every honest word can have value, that doesn't mean I think every honest publication is worthy of a price-tag.
There are some noted successes, though. Some books that were originally e-pubs have broken out into the "real" market. One can also build a sand castle by throwing hand-grenades at a beach and achieve comparable quality.
But, people make money doing it...
They really do. No, they don't make enough to buy vacation homes in Maine so they can take pleasant strolls in the countryside while dodging murderous vans, but a relative few make enough for it to be worthwhile.
In my opinion, there's an exception to the "Rule" regarding the general opinion most have against e-pubs - Some works might be very suited for e-pub, especially if they're focused on unique subjects that have a lot of appeal for a small audience.
But, if someone can write something that's intended for consumption by others, it should at least be palatable...
A friend of mine is a frequent consumer of low-cost e-drivel. He's a voracious reader and, like most of us who are, gets impatient waiting for the next title in a beloved series to hit the shelf. So, he clicks on "buy for $1" and gets a temporary reprieve, if not a reward, for doing so. Most of the time, though, it's not something he'd really recommend to another reader unless they were as desperate as he was when he bought it.
I don't own an e-reader. I have shelves.
Fans of self-e-pubs and their favorite authors are often a reactionary bunch, very defensive of their pursuits. That's understandable - Anyone who feels that their favorite vice is under assault by the mainstream public is going to get a little worked up about it. IMO, they tend to cluster in isolated little echo-chamber covens where they feel more free to indulge themselves without criticism. It's a defensive action.
We tend to consider the sorts of stories a person likes as being a reflection of their inner-self, some sort of externally visible indication of what that person is truly like. If I said " I enjoy reading stories about kittens getting stomped on by golf-cleats" then others would certainly think I might be a "weirdo." (Justifiably so..) And, if we then say that all e-pubs are garbage, we're telling people that really, truly, like some self-e-pub fiction that they are somehow "garbage" too. That's not fair.
To sum: I don't think that self e-pubs are in the same basic genre as traditional books. At the very least, they can't be considered similar enough to be directly comparable. But, that does not mean, in my opinion, that they don't have a place or can't have true worth. Unfortunately, a good bit of what's available are desperately published works that aren't written well enough to survive close scrutiny.
Note: There are several very outspoken proponents of self e-pubs out there. The most prominent is probably Hugh Howey, author of the Silo series, starting with "Wool." It's a series worth reading, but he's leveraged it to be a platform from which he can launch his crusades against traditional publishers.
People make money doing it.
But, it's largely junk. It's not because whatever was published has been rejected by conventional publishers. That happens to decent works, too. It's because there's no practical vetting. Nobody has read the manuscript and decided "This is worth dedicating energy to so that others may read it." Most have never passed even a tertiary culling. While I think that every honest word can have value, that doesn't mean I think every honest publication is worthy of a price-tag.
There are some noted successes, though. Some books that were originally e-pubs have broken out into the "real" market. One can also build a sand castle by throwing hand-grenades at a beach and achieve comparable quality.
But, people make money doing it...
They really do. No, they don't make enough to buy vacation homes in Maine so they can take pleasant strolls in the countryside while dodging murderous vans, but a relative few make enough for it to be worthwhile.
In my opinion, there's an exception to the "Rule" regarding the general opinion most have against e-pubs - Some works might be very suited for e-pub, especially if they're focused on unique subjects that have a lot of appeal for a small audience.
But, if someone can write something that's intended for consumption by others, it should at least be palatable...
A friend of mine is a frequent consumer of low-cost e-drivel. He's a voracious reader and, like most of us who are, gets impatient waiting for the next title in a beloved series to hit the shelf. So, he clicks on "buy for $1" and gets a temporary reprieve, if not a reward, for doing so. Most of the time, though, it's not something he'd really recommend to another reader unless they were as desperate as he was when he bought it.
I don't own an e-reader. I have shelves.
Fans of self-e-pubs and their favorite authors are often a reactionary bunch, very defensive of their pursuits. That's understandable - Anyone who feels that their favorite vice is under assault by the mainstream public is going to get a little worked up about it. IMO, they tend to cluster in isolated little echo-chamber covens where they feel more free to indulge themselves without criticism. It's a defensive action.
We tend to consider the sorts of stories a person likes as being a reflection of their inner-self, some sort of externally visible indication of what that person is truly like. If I said " I enjoy reading stories about kittens getting stomped on by golf-cleats" then others would certainly think I might be a "weirdo." (Justifiably so..) And, if we then say that all e-pubs are garbage, we're telling people that really, truly, like some self-e-pub fiction that they are somehow "garbage" too. That's not fair.
To sum: I don't think that self e-pubs are in the same basic genre as traditional books. At the very least, they can't be considered similar enough to be directly comparable. But, that does not mean, in my opinion, that they don't have a place or can't have true worth. Unfortunately, a good bit of what's available are desperately published works that aren't written well enough to survive close scrutiny.
Note: There are several very outspoken proponents of self e-pubs out there. The most prominent is probably Hugh Howey, author of the Silo series, starting with "Wool." It's a series worth reading, but he's leveraged it to be a platform from which he can launch his crusades against traditional publishers.
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Alan Phipps
- Moderator (English)
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- Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
@ mrbadger: You didn't think much of it three years ago either. (I knew I'd seen it here before - although that was about audio books.) 
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.
@Alan Phipps you remember too much, or I post too much, one of those things, it's probably your fault.
But yeah, because those self published books books that have been turned into audiobooks could have been so very good with just a little more work, but weren't given the chance, because Amazon have that tempting 'publish now' button.
It still is frustrating, the series I wanted to buy still gets recommended to me, because it's so close to my usual likes, but it's so badly written, and from the sample, badly narrated too.
And Yes, Audible is still filled with such drivel, i've just got used to the process of checking out authors so much that it's automatic and I barely think about it.
@Morkonan, indeed, writing is a reflection of your inner self, and you know that's a reason to do your best to get it right before publishing.
I think that's the biggest problem with self publication. Yes agents will reject you. Yes sometimes it's upsetting. But they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting the book you wrote. I think people forget that. Or don't stop to ask themselves why.
I looked at some forums for self publication, and they were, if I could summerise, populated by people who thought agents were uptight haters who couldn't see true genius when they saw it and were only interested in maintaining the old status quo.
So they self published their barely adequate work and pretended not to care that no-one bought it.
Most self publishing fiction authors make less than £500 per book. Some make more. Some even get agents, and then stop being self published on subsequent books if they want.
I've never sold a non fiction self publication. Mine have always been Creative Commons licenced free works, released on various sites over the years, and have been downloaded thousands of times. I doubt if they would have been had they not been free.
But yeah, because those self published books books that have been turned into audiobooks could have been so very good with just a little more work, but weren't given the chance, because Amazon have that tempting 'publish now' button.
It still is frustrating, the series I wanted to buy still gets recommended to me, because it's so close to my usual likes, but it's so badly written, and from the sample, badly narrated too.
And Yes, Audible is still filled with such drivel, i've just got used to the process of checking out authors so much that it's automatic and I barely think about it.
@Morkonan, indeed, writing is a reflection of your inner self, and you know that's a reason to do your best to get it right before publishing.
I think that's the biggest problem with self publication. Yes agents will reject you. Yes sometimes it's upsetting. But they're not rejecting you, they're rejecting the book you wrote. I think people forget that. Or don't stop to ask themselves why.
I looked at some forums for self publication, and they were, if I could summerise, populated by people who thought agents were uptight haters who couldn't see true genius when they saw it and were only interested in maintaining the old status quo.
So they self published their barely adequate work and pretended not to care that no-one bought it.
Most self publishing fiction authors make less than £500 per book. Some make more. Some even get agents, and then stop being self published on subsequent books if they want.
I've never sold a non fiction self publication. Mine have always been Creative Commons licenced free works, released on various sites over the years, and have been downloaded thousands of times. I doubt if they would have been had they not been free.
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. ... Niccolò Machiavelli
I'm always suspicious of self-published books. You have to wonder--why is the author having to pay to get their book published? Is it because they've sent it to a proper publisher who rejected it for being, well, crap? Given that an author is a really bad judge of how good their own work is (in the same way that everyone thinks they're a good driver even though they're probably not), I would rather stick with work that's had an editor look over it and determine it to be good for publication.
I'm fully aware that there might well be absolutely awesome self-published stuff I'm missing out on, but I think the chances of getting a decent book with self-publication is certainly lower than traditional publications.
I'm fully aware that there might well be absolutely awesome self-published stuff I'm missing out on, but I think the chances of getting a decent book with self-publication is certainly lower than traditional publications.
IMO, a statistical analysis of all self-published works would probably show that, for those that became notably published, the odds are what would be expected for "chance."pjknibbs wrote:...
I'm fully aware that there might well be absolutely awesome self-published stuff I'm missing out on, but I think the chances of getting a decent book with self-publication is certainly lower than traditional publications.
There are some few books that, for one reason or another, and not always with a consideration for quality, have succeeded when out in wider ocean of traditional publishing.
I have read some of those or have tried to. None of them are of exceptional quality, in my opinion. Most of them suck and I would have regretted paying hard-back prices for them. Of all of the ones I have read or "looked at", only "Wool", the first in the Silo series by Howley, counts as "a good book." The rest of the books in that series are "fair," but not exceptional.
"The Martian" is a decent book, but a strange "story." It's a fun read and worth the ink and paper used to print it. BUT, it was not an e-pub in any traditional sense, more of a serialized bit of exploratory fiction.
That last reference raises some questions, too...
Does "Fifty-Shades" count? Originally a bit of lurid fan-fic focused characters and ideas originating in another piece of pulp drivel, the Twilight "saga," it was a serialized bit of erotic pumpwork... It is wholly garbage. It's a steaming pile of poo. If it could have been published in phallus form, the author would have undoubtedly been more pleased.
But, along with its spin-offs, it has made hundreds of millions of dollars, gross.
Here is the point: Who decides what the next "Blockbuster" will be? I'll give you a hint - It's rarely the author or the quality of their work.
And, that's the main argument that self-e-pub proponents put forth. They're tired of "The Man" "deciding" what is "worth" publishing and what "deserves" to be read.
Unfortunately, they don't usually have anything to offer up as clear evidence for their claims, especially when it's all too readily apparent that publishers can still publish garbage and make it sell.
Want to get on the "Best Seller" list for the New York Times, one of the most well-regarded "lists" to be on? Guess what? It doesn't have anything to do with how many total copies you've sold or how good the book is, it's all about "burst sales." What books sold xxxx copies this week? There ya go... BUT, being on that "list" can exponentially drive sales, increasing exposure, driving word-of-mouth recommendations and leaving a lot of copies lying around that can be lent to friends, driving sequels and other publishing rights.
Sorry for the ramble - The point is that the whole self-e-pub market is a beast that's not in the same category as traditional publishing. And, for those rare examples that make it out? It's not usually going to be solely because they're quality works, but for some other reason, usually one decided upon by the publisher that picks 'em up.
I kind of think the same thing...pjknibbs wrote:I'm always suspicious of self-published books. You have to wonder--why is the author having to pay to get their book published? Is it because they've sent it to a proper publisher who rejected it for being, well, crap? Given that an author is a really bad judge of how good their own work is (in the same way that everyone thinks they're a good driver even though they're probably not), I would rather stick with work that's had an editor look over it and determine it to be good for publication.
I'm fully aware that there might well be absolutely awesome self-published stuff I'm missing out on, but I think the chances of getting a decent book with self-publication is certainly lower than traditional publications.
... But then I read a few books in the Star Wars EU that were clearly written over a weekend by someone who's only knowledge of Star Wars is The Holiday Special.
Same goes for most of the Star Trek books, they clearly have a checklist for each book:
1) Picard acts slightly out of character.
2) Data misunderstands a basic human thing.
3) Worf references a Klingon ritual.
4) Riker notices a female alien.
5) Deanna is rendered mostly impotent from the unusually strong emotions of the visiting alien race.
6) Crew saves the day thanks to Geordie's bullcrap in the engine room reversing the polarity of the icecream maker.
They are all awful apart from a couple of good ones from Peter David.
(Don't get me started on 50 shades... Okay, so I haven't read it, but I've read excerpts, and wanted to strangle the 12 year old boy that wrote it).
I read the blurb on a few books that appeared in my Facebook pages, and they sounded good. Bought them, and realized that they were borderline "young adult", and probably self-published (No mistakes, I just thought that a competent editor/publisher would have read it and said "Yeah, it isn't 1957 any more..."
I think that a lot of people don't go through 'real' publishers is because publishers generally don't accept random people emailing them submissions. You have to get an agent (a good one, who is actually allowed to send stuff to publishers). I read somewhere that a good self publisher will make about $500 per year...
"I've got a bad feeling about this!" Harrison Ford, 5 times a year, trying to land his plane.
There are people that make substantially more than that. BUT, they cultivate their fanbase, heavily engage social media, "work the system" and often end up in niche markets where they're the only ones writing material.Jericho wrote:... I read somewhere that a good self publisher will make about $500 per year...
""Flying Fur" Furry Fox, starship Captain, has giant mechanical tentacle phallus in place of his arm. Hilarity ensues as ship is catapulted into Earth's past and the Captain and crew must navigate a maze built by the Marqui de Sade... "
Yeah... So, anyway, people can make money, but probably not likely to make a "living wage" anyone would be comfortable with, by exploiting niche markets in the somewhat "pulp" self-publishing e-book market.
There's an author that started with some really good fantasy books, nothing weird, great stuff, and then went entirely into that niche market. I assume, since he's not writing fantasy anymore, but focusing on that weird crap, he "makes a living at it." /shrug
And, there's always the slim chance a book will take off and get noticed, at least noticed enough that some publisher might pay attention to a manuscript submission.