Understanding guns in the USA: A fresh look

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Is Usenko onto something?

Why yes, that's a great thought!
3
19%
What a load of cobblers!
2
13%
Sausages!
11
69%
 
Total votes: 16

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clakclak
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Post by clakclak » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 15:25

eladan wrote:
clakclak wrote:
Alan Phipps wrote:I always thought the US Navy (and those that might be shooting at them) might generally be using rather different projectiles than small arms rounds?[...]
Correct me if I am wrong, but according to this article, gangs in Chicago use more and more Ar-15 and Ak-47 style weopens lately. If I am not completely missinformed than those fire rounds you will also find in warzones. Sure they don't have bigger machine guns like 50.cal's or the russian 14.5mm rounds, but the russian 7.62mm round (fired by the AKM) and the NATO 5.56mm rounds (fired by the US M16/M4) are also pretty common in todays warzones.
Pretty sure he's talking about even higher caliber shells than those - like howitzer size. You don't usually have sea battles where sailors are firing at each other with personal armaments, is his point, I think.
Ah ok that makes sense. I came to the conclusion that he meant guns used in non naval battles, because the article he linked to stated that Navy medics are embedded with the US marines during their operations.

A howitzer wound probably is totally different from a gunshot, but to be honest naval battles today (don't happen really) are not done with howitzers but with ship to ship missiles.
Laugh and the world laughs with you,
Weep, and you weep alone;
The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 17:50

felter wrote:I watched a video the other week there, it was a mock school shooting with an armed teacher protecting the school kids. So they did the run and the guy turns around to the pro arm the teachers at the end and asked so how do you think he did. The pro armed teacher guy was so proud with the, now that's why we need to arm teachers, the other guy says but he just shot and killed one of the kids. The pro guy goes, it doesn't matter as he would have saved other kids from being shot.

That's the mentality of a pro gun shooter, kids lives only matter so long as it is just the good guys who are shooting and killing them. He honestly could not see anything wrong with a school teacher shooting one of his kids, he did not give a damn about a kid being shot and killed by the teacher. OH and he was the principle of the school where the teacher worked, don't know how the teacher felt about him shooting one of the kids.
And, then you said...
Honestly though why do we care, it's just Americans after all, it's what they want. Just let them shoot and kill each other, so long as they keep it to themselves why should we care, it's not our kids after all. All we have to do is keep our kids safe, that's what really matters.
You don't see the irony, here?

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felter
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Post by felter » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 19:10

Morkonan wrote:
felter wrote:I watched a video the other week there, it was a mock school shooting with an armed teacher protecting the school kids. So they did the run and the guy turns around to the pro arm the teachers at the end and asked so how do you think he did. The pro armed teacher guy was so proud with the, now that's why we need to arm teachers, the other guy says but he just shot and killed one of the kids. The pro guy goes, it doesn't matter as he would have saved other kids from being shot.

That's the mentality of a pro gun shooter, kids lives only matter so long as it is just the good guys who are shooting and killing them. He honestly could not see anything wrong with a school teacher shooting one of his kids, he did not give a damn about a kid being shot and killed by the teacher. OH and he was the principle of the school where the teacher worked, don't know how the teacher felt about him shooting one of the kids.
And, then you said...
Honestly though why do we care, it's just Americans after all, it's what they want. Just let them shoot and kill each other, so long as they keep it to themselves why should we care, it's not our kids after all. All we have to do is keep our kids safe, that's what really matters.
You don't see the irony, here?
The first part shows how much Americans actually care about the safety of their kids, while the second part is why should we care if they as shown in the first part don't care and that we shouldn't care. We should just sit back and watch as they self exterminate themselves. Stupidity isn't contagious after all, so it's not like we are going to catch it from them.
I'm not saying he is a Russian asset, I'm saying he sat on his asset when he was supposed to be confronting Putin.
#AlertTheDaycareStaff #denturedonald

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Rednoahl
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Post by Rednoahl » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 19:11

I don't live in the USA so I don't think I've a valid opinion to give, and I'm certainly not well informed on the whole gun situation over there. Frankly I don't think it's any of my business; like Spain has bullfighting and that isn't popular with a lot of folk who don't live there and I don't live in Spain either so don't have an opinion to share.

However what does appear to me to be true for rather a lot of nations is that youth doesn't seem to know the difference between fame and infamy and a hell of a lot of the youth want fame at ANY price.

Worse is that young men are being bombarded by media, schools and universities stating they are evil by virtue of their birth - especially white lads. Young men at the peak of their physical strength and at their most fragile mentally are getting told all the time that they are evil. Some of those young men will crack under those circumstances - I can understand because I've been there and nearly did crack.

Those young men who don't crack I expect to eventually become a tribe of sorts - a violent one at that. The seeds are already there with the alt-right and antifa. Why do I think this? Because that was the 1970's I grew up in, and history has a bad habit of repeating itself.

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clakclak
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Post by clakclak » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 20:10

Rednoahl wrote:[...]

Worse is that young men are being bombarded by media, schools and universities stating they are evil by virtue of their birth - especially white lads. Young men at the peak of their physical strength and at their most fragile mentally are getting told all the time that they are evil.[...]
As a young white man currently in University I have no clue what you are talking about. Could you elaborate?
Rednoahl wrote:[...]I don't live in the USA so I don't think I've a valid opinion to give[...]
And I don't life in North Korea, yet I still think that my criticism of the regime is valid, the same way some of the criticism about Germany (my country) coming from the outside is very valid.
Laugh and the world laughs with you,
Weep, and you weep alone;
The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

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Antilogic
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Post by Antilogic » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 20:19


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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Thu, 1. Mar 18, 22:24

felter wrote:The first part shows how much Americans actually care about the safety of their kids, while the second part is why should we care if they as shown in the first part don't care and that we shouldn't care. We should just sit back and watch as they self exterminate themselves. Stupidity isn't contagious after all, so it's not like we are going to catch it from them.
I don't have to add anything at all. Your commentary cuts its own legs off, all by itself. It's a truly remarkable work of literary and moral engineering.

Image

:)

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JSDD
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Re: Understanding guns in the USA: A fresh look

Post by JSDD » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 00:10

Usenko wrote:Whenever there's a problem to solve, step 1 is always trying to understand the other. This case is no different.

To people outside the USA, it all seems simple - too many guns = too many shootings. And we are baffled as to why the Americans permit this - it seems like it should be a no-brainer.
i'm outside of usa, and i think its another way of thinking ...

in the us, not all people live in big cities, with several top-equipped police stations nearby (maybe with a swat team etc). burglaries for example are a HUGE problem in germany and its growing like a tumor. in the us (e.g. texas) you must be suicidal to dare breaking into another house ... or prepared to commit murder.

i think its a good thing that people there have the right to own guns, even sub-machine guns. what is f*cked up are the regulations ... even a child can own a AK47 in texas. "gun-show loop hole" is another no-brainer for most of us (except altright terrorists) ... reasonable restrictions / regulations is the key, but with that "show" thats running in the capital NOTHING will be done. the "freak show" in congress hasnt started with trump, it has started earlier when the "tea party" terrorists got into congress ... trump is just the tip of te iceberg. reasonable republicans (they actually do exist!) cant open their mouth without being publicly "excommunicated" by the "populist hardliners" ...
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clakclak
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Re: Understanding guns in the USA: A fresh look

Post by clakclak » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 01:37

JSDD wrote:[...]burglaries for example are a HUGE problem in germany and its growing like a tumor. [...]
There were 10% less buglaries 2016 than in 2015. (151.000 burglaries in total) As of this moment I was not able to find numbers for 2017, but according to an article from December 2017, it is expected that there were less burglaries in 2017 than in 2016, so the number sunk again.

So how are burglaries spreading like a tumor? Don't get me wrong, there are still to many but in 2016 and 2017 it seems like the situation improved quite a bit.

JSDD wrote:[...]in the us (e.g. texas) you must be suicidal to dare breaking into another house ... or prepared to commit murder.[...]


Than explain to me why there are a lot more burglaries in Texas than in Germany. Taking the number from the Spiegel article above there are 188 burlaries per 100.000 people in Germany. And the number for Texas is 548. According to this site there were 148.000 burlaries in Texas in 2016. The total number is almost the same, but Texas has a lot smaller population than Germany.


Edit: Lot of edits, sorry for that.
Laugh and the world laughs with you,
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The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

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Morkonan
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Re: Understanding guns in the USA: A fresh look

Post by Morkonan » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 04:37

clakclak wrote:...Than explain to me why there are a lot more burglaries in Texas than in Germany. ...
There's nothing worth stealing in Germany?

:) ;P

Sorry, I couldn't help myself! Yes, Germany is a great country, plenty of stuff there worth stealing! :)

In all honesty, there's a pretty bad drug problem going on in the US. These are really "nasty" drugs, like "crystal meth", several different types of opiates, and then weird crap that drives people nuts. There's also, still, things like heroin, crack, and the usual round of suspects. This isn't all that's responsible, IMO, but it may be an aggravating factor that Germany doesn't have as serious a problem with as some regions in the US.

There's also the "definition" problem. Does the article/study correctly categorize these crimes so that they are equitably defined? "Theft" definitions could differ between the US and Germany. That sort of thing has been responsible for a great many errors in comparisons between the criminal reporting in different countries.

PS: For US information, I would be extremely suspicious of any "study" that did not directly refer to the FBI criminal statistics. That's the clearing-house for information of that sort. "Some" state agencies may have reliable numbers, but I'd still prefer the ones they felt were safe to report to the FBI. Because of the controversy surrounding such subjects, I'm suspicious of any reports that don't directly correlate with FBI data.

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Observe
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Post by Observe » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 05:47

Trying to figure out a single cause for gun violence, is like trying to find a single reason for people becoming alcoholics. It's not that simple.

Regardless of which country has the most crime, all nations need to take steps on many fronts to reduce crime in general. Drug abuse, mental health, economic security, healthcare, education and yes, gun control are all factors that need to be addressed.

Reasonable people of all political persuasions should be able to find common-sense grounds for limiting firearms to those who are likely to be responsible with them.

Age is certainly an element to consider. I would be for limiting gun purchases to those over 25 - when the brain is fully developed and good judgement has reached some maturity.

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clakclak
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Re: Understanding guns in the USA: A fresh look

Post by clakclak » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 13:50

Morkonan wrote:[...]

PS: For US information, I would be extremely suspicious of any "study" that did not directly refer to the FBI criminal statistics. That's the clearing-house for information of that sort. "Some" state agencies may have reliable numbers, but I'd still prefer the ones they felt were safe to report to the FBI. Because of the controversy surrounding such subjects, I'm suspicious of any reports that don't directly correlate with FBI data.
Just in case that was still adressed at me, the website I linked for the US numbers refers directly to the FBI report as it's source, whereas the German one refers to the BKA.
Laugh and the world laughs with you,
Weep, and you weep alone;
The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 14:52

Observe wrote:Trying to figure out a single cause for gun violence, is like trying to find a single reason for people becoming alcoholics. It's not that simple.
- take an extreme situation as an example:
- imagine a room full of mentally ill people
- flood the room with guns and watch what happens..
- are the people in the room safer without the guns?

- weapons are dangerous..
- that's why they are called weapons..
- guns are weapons..

:headbang:


PS - if we're talking barbies, I'm tempted to vote sausages on this one.. :roll:
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Masterbagger
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Post by Masterbagger » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 16:59

I suspect most people agitating for gun control don't want to understand guns in America and completely ignore anything that isn't pushing a narrative that guns are bad. I think that is why we've gotten to where we are now with gangs running amok in our cities. Gun control laws are implemented poorly. The people actually doing the harm with guns have already gotten around the laws and won't be stopped by new ones. I really think gun control isn't designed to stop crime.

The past few years have seen more States pass laws removing restrictions on public carry of a firearm for self defense. A few have even gone to Constitutional carry and deregulated it entirely. The blood on the streets and the wild west shootouts never appeared in any of those states. The addition of more lawful guns circulating in public didn't produce more violence. The situation isn't as simple as less guns less crime.
Who made that man a gunner?

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clakclak
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Post by clakclak » Fri, 2. Mar 18, 18:20

Masterbagger wrote:[...]
The past few years have seen more States pass laws removing restrictions on public carry of a firearm for self defense. A few have even gone to Constitutional carry and deregulated it entirely. The blood on the streets and the wild west shootouts never appeared in any of those states. The addition of more lawful guns circulating in public didn't produce more violence. The situation isn't as simple as less guns less crime.
What states are you talking about specifically?
Laugh and the world laughs with you,
Weep, and you weep alone;
The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

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