Star Wars - The Last Jedi (may contain spoilers)

Skism · Post by **Skism** » Thu, 28. Dec 17, 00:53

Usenko wrote:For me, the movie went from a solid 3.5 out of 5 on first watch to a good 4.5 after the second watch.

I am almost ready to call this the best of the Star Wars series.

Honestly what makes this movie good?

Post by **Ketraar** » Thu, 28. Dec 17, 01:27

Skism wrote:Honestly what makes this movie good?

Cinematography, score, character arcs and actor performances, action set pieces and the plot overall.

The user score is pretty useless, as with many of these films there is always a few "dedicated" people with too much time on their hands and nothing of use to do that will make a lot of noise with little substance, its thing for a while now.

And as I said before, I can see that some people don't like the movie, as per usual its subjective, but I dint read anything of substance as to why its supposed to be bad. Most of the (admittedly few) explanations I read is from people expecting that movies fit THEIR vision and that anything deviating from their, rather pretentious, expectations will be flagged as bad and is met with hostility and none should like it and if they do then they are either dummies or being paid, because other opinions is a big no no, so they make a lot of noise with rather little sense.

Personally, I would not call it the best Star Wars, but its up there with empire, obviously the older ones will always have that special place, mostly due to nostalgia, which is saying something for TLJ.

MFG

Ketraar

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Thu, 28. Dec 17, 15:31

I've been mad at George Lucas for decades now. I didn't think I'd ever want to see the franchise back under his control but here we are.

mr.WHO · Post by **mr.WHO** » Sat, 30. Dec 17, 11:17

Hey Guys,
At the end of this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdeGE8rdYdc

There is a very good explenation why there was no active hyperspace intredictors for Supremacy.
Basically that "hyperspace tracking device" was partially stored in hyperspace therefore it's highly likely any hyperspace intrediction would screw that device. Additionally if you can track someone via hyperspace you really don't have to intredict him, just chase untill he ran out of fuel

I guess they didn't account that someone might be crazy enough to kamikze into Supremacy.

Still for mobile capital, I'd prefere to have hyperspace intredictors and put hyperspace tracker on something else, like that Siege Dreadanouth.

Post by **Ketraar** » Sat, 30. Dec 17, 14:15

Also funny that the Hyperspace Tracking was mentioned in Rogue One, when Jin looks through the files while searching for the Deathstar flaw, one such file she skims over is hyperspace tracking.

MFG

Ketraar

Bishop149 · Post by **Bishop149** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 13:23

Here's quite a good article on the direction they took Luke in, which I think highlights quite well why some people really liked it and others might not have.
https://www.zacbertschy.com/blog/2017/1 ... -skywalker

Some like their heroes to be real people, whilst some would prefer them to be unrealistic, untouchable archetypes that they don't have to think too hard about. Anyway TLJ very much went with the former model and in doing so IMO actually managed to deliver far more "heroism" from it's hero, than your basic: Hero saves day as expected by being heroic, happily ever after the end.
However it also simultaneously casually killed off, deconstructed and made fun of all the more standard issue archetypes that were present and are apparently so beloved by some. Personally I thought it was quite clever, but I can see why it would upset people. . . . although by how much in some cases really does beggars belief.
Personally I don't particular mind either model but the "real people" version is so much harder for a writer or actor to pull off and, I'd imagine, much more rewarding. It was nice to see them take advantage of the fact that the 66yo Mark Hamill could actually act, where as the 26yo version couldn't for toffee.

My only real criticism of it is Admiral Holdo. Much as I love Lorna Dern and was happy she was in it (looking amazing!) her character was superfluous. It needn't have been, she could have been given a better script, but as it was Holdo failed to deliver anything significant or new. I'm with the "should of been Akbar" crowd on this one, a missed opportunity to flesh out a (one line) fan favourite and give him a good death.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 13:30

I'm with the "should of been Akbar" crowd on this one, a missed opportunity to flesh out a (one line) fan favourite and give him a good death.

Again, I am sure this would have happened, if they wouldn't have had to deal with 4 billion "Akbar suicide bombing" memes from some very funny people.

Post by **Ketraar** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 15:13

Also not every minor character needs to have a huge send-off. "Fans" make a big deal out of things and dont realize its mostly in their head. Not everyone has read every SW book or novel, played every SW game, or maybe they have and that is the problem. That in itself is a trap.

MFG

Ketraar

mr.WHO · Post by **mr.WHO** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 18:30

Well yeah - lets not use popular minor character and lets not give him huge send-off.

Instead lets create another minor character who no one cares and know and give it a huge send-off.

Briliant!

Post by **X2-Illuminatus** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 19:27

I think Ket's suggestion was rather to not have send-offs for minor characters at all or at least only rarely, instead of replacing popular with not so popular minor characters. After all, not every minor character needs a proper story arc, quite the contrary. Minor characters become likeable not because of the screen time they have, but because of iconic scenes. Knowing the exact whereabouts and well-being is not necessary to give these characters meaning. If, for example, a minor character engages into a fight or battle, and they are not shown afterwards, then the viewer can easily imagine what happened: They either died or got severly wounded, so that they do not play a role in the foreseeable future. Exactly showing their death or injury is not necessary.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 19:43

Also Erik Bauersfeld, Ackbar's voice actor died in 2016. They may not have wanted to do much without him.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. The event that did happen, the attack on the bridge was hugely important and helped cement how much trouble the resistance was in.

ezra-r · Post by **ezra-r** » Tue, 2. Jan 18, 20:52

I got surprised that

Spoiler

Show

such a powerful and evil character as Snoke was killed so suddenly and without giving us more from him, his origins, how he became so powerful, etc

also in other movies

Spoiler

Show

getting to be a jedi was a lifetime work but Rey manages to control it so quickly

what do you think?

Post by **Ketraar** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 00:13

Not sure why the spoiler tags, it sais spoiler warning in the title.

So about Snoke, who cares? From the movies do you know where Darth Sidius became this strong, did you know why Vader was this strong. NO, then you got the prequels explaining everything and that went so well... (I dont hate the prequels, they are just mediocre, with the exception of the making Vader scene, that one was epic)

The Story is about Rey and Kylo, every other character is secondary, Snoke served its purpose in the path to "make" Kylo and it served that purpose. As I said before, 30 speculating and reading all sorts of "what ifs" will result in inevitable disappointment as no movie will be exactly how "fans" made them up, but the problem is, they are not the makers of it.

Its a thing these days, where "fans" feel they are entitled to have a say in the creative process of others, I find it both interesting and equally infuriating.

MFG

Ketraar

Skism · Post by **Skism** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 18:29

Ketraar wrote:Not sure why the spoiler tags, it sais spoiler warning in the title.

So about Snoke, who cares? From the movies do you know where Darth Sidius became this strong, did you know why Vader was this strong. NO, then you got the prequels explaining everything and that went so well... (I dont hate the prequels, they are just mediocre, with the exception of the making Vader scene, that one was epic)

The Story is about Rey and Kylo, every other character is secondary, Snoke served its purpose in the path to "make" Kylo and it served that purpose. As I said before, 30 speculating and reading all sorts of "what ifs" will result in inevitable disappointment as no movie will be exactly how "fans" made them up, but the problem is, they are not the makers of it.

Its a thing these days, where "fans" feel they are entitled to have a say in the creative process of others, I find it both interesting and equally infuriating.

MFG

Ketraar

So the new narrative is that the fans of Star Wars are to blame for bad publicity nay should have no say in the direction of Star Wars?

Yeah I don't see that going down well. At all in fact.

So about Snoke, who cares? From the movies do you know where Darth Sidius became this strong, did you know why Vader was this strong. NO, then you got the prequels explaining everything and that went so well... (I dont hate the prequels, they are just mediocre, with the exception of the making Vader scene, that one was epic)

Earlier point you made:

Cinematography, score, character arcs and actor performances, action set pieces and the plot overall.

They are a joke Ketraar

The Characters in this movie are an utter joke there is no 'character arc'

Rey is the definition of a Mary Sue

Multiple people died without explanation.

The plot was an utter joke.

There was no Science In this Science Fiction in fact the physics weren't

I Quote from an excellent comment:

Chi Huavara
Kathleen Kennedy cooks the Golden Goose that is the Star Wars franchise, eats it, and then excretes it in the latest entry of the Social Justice Trilogy; The Last Jedi.

There are some cool things here. The crystal foxes. The Yoda puppet was mostly well done, though it seemed they had a little problem with the eyes. The Jedi Island caretakers were pretty cool. But that's really about it.

Poe's primary function in the film is to argue with bossy women who like to keep secrets from him so they can show us how bossy they are, and not to do much of anything else other than whoop in a cockpit here and there. Apparenlty this may have been meant to pass the worthless Bechdel Test, but since Holdo and Leia spend the entire movie talking about Poe I'm not sure that it does.

Rey and Kylo argue with each other via The Force. Rey's all tough and gritty and hard as nails having been a scrapper on Jakku. Remember? But here she somehow can't stand to see a man with his shirt off. Not kidding.
Princess Leia flies through empty airless space like Superman after being blown out of the hull of her ship without incurring a single blemish. Absolutely not kidding here.
Rey asks Luke for Jedi training, but what for? Mary Sue Rey clearly already knows it all. She lectures him about the things he's done and why he really did it and what he's really thinking. Apparently Luke is still the student. Lightsaber training? She bests Luke on the island with a lightsaber. What training is necessary? The Bechdel Galaxy won't allow for any disempowering mansplaining of the Force from a white male like Luke. Chewbacca came along for the ride here but spends most of the time taking a nap off camera with the Star Wars version of a pikachu.

Rey asks Luke for Jedi training, but what for? Mary Sue Rey clearly already knows it all. She lectures him about the things he's done and why he really did it and what he's really thinking. Apparently Luke is still the student. Lightsaber training? She bests Luke on the island with a lightsaber. What training is necessary? The Bechdel Galaxy won't allow for any disempowering mansplaining of the Force from a white male like Luke. Chewbacca came along for the ride here but spends most of the time taking a nap off camera with the Star Wars version of a pikachu.

How they found Luke's lightsaber was a story for another time, remember? Well, not this time. Maybe next time.

Captain Phasma pops up in time for Finn to have a climactic lightsaber-esque battle too. Equal equality equitably equalized everywhere for everyone all of the time. And then Phasma dies just as quickly, not from a winning blow by Finn, but by falling through a collapsing floor into a fireball. I guess it wouldn't be prudent to have a man assaulting a woman in the shadow of Hollywood's Pervnado.

Hux spouts over the top villainous hyperbole. That is all.
BB8 shows up to drive an AT-ST. R2D2 and C3PO make their brief appearances but have little to no function.
We then end with an AT-AT battle a la TESB. Luke makes an appearance to stand off with the AT-ATs but is utterly wasted here. Does he go to town on the AT-AT legs with his lightsaber? Does he lift the AT-ATs into the air telekinetically and bash them into one another? Does he use the Force to enter the minds of the soldiers and force them to stand down? Maybe some other show of the power that he's developed while in exile over the decades? Nope. Instead Luke's merely a mental projection here, and it exhausts him to the point of dying back on his exile planet. He's rusty now, having closed himself off to the Force after all; a necessary contrivance that allowed Rey to best him earlier with a lightsaber I'm guessing. At least we get to see Luke milk an alien nipple; that's what you've been waiting for to see all these years, right?

The rebels - I mean resistance - attack the AT-ATs with a squadron of ground-based cable cars, which drag an armature on the ground so we can see nifty red sand fly into the air. If the writers had done a brief Google search on aircraft physics they would have found the effects of jet spray from low flying craft. The armature was unnecessary and served only to keep the craft bound to the planet's surface. Since the cable cars were restricted to the ground, all TIE fighters would have to do is circle above and fire away.

Finn drives one of these cable cars towards a kind of battering ram weapon that was firing on blast doors which protected the rebel base. He intended to take it out to protect the rebels within. In what could have been a poignant tragic hero moment with Finn dive-bombing into the weapon thus saving the rebels with his sacrifice, Rose shows up out of nowhere in another cable car and deliberately crashes into Finn to "save him" from his dive bombing. So now they're both on the battlefield exposed in their wrecked cable cars, and the battering ram weapon is still operational, bringing down the resistance's protective blast doors. And it was all for Rose's selfish hours old infatuation with Finn. Gee thanks.

Then Kylo and Rey team up to fight Snoke. Hoping some mysteries about Snoke are revealed here? Or maybe a spectacular display of Snoke's power with the Force? Well, Rey deftly kills Snoke by telekinetically switching on a resting lightsaber while he's sitting in his throne pontificating. No answers for you. Kylo and Rey then proceed to fight Snoke's guards, even though they no longer have anything to guard with Snoke's death. Whatever training Daisy Ridley had for this film shows a marked improvement in regards to her stance and motion when fighting from what we saw in TFA, but it still can't erase the silliness of watching a 95 pound girl best adversaries that outweigh her by 150 pounds. And yes, I'd make the same observation about a man if I watched Martin Short battle Rhonda Rhousey.

What's clear to me is that the writers here have no knowledge whatsoever of the deeper layers of the onion that have always provided the foundation for Star Wars. No knowledge of war or military history. No knowledge of mythology or mysticism. No knowledge of the history of civilization. No knowledge of dogfights or sword fighting. No knowledge of basic physics or anatomy. The only things they seem to have knowledge of is previous Star Wars films (or at least the trailers for them), social justice nonsense, and the Bechdel Test. So we're left with a shallow unnuanced exercise in social justice lecturing and feminist posturing couched in cosplay costumes and 40 year old Ralph McQuarrie designs which were rejected from The Original Trilogy production.

I have to think that Rian had to work around whatever Kathleen Kennedy and her story group handed him. But ultimately I truly believe this mostly all about pushing a political agenda at this point. It explains so much. It explains why professional critics will now give good reviews to any film like, like TFA and TLJ which are saturated with social justice nonsense and lecturing without regard to film craft. It explains why Jurassic World received poor critical reviews; it had a decided lack of this political messaging. This in turn might explain why Jurassic World's Colin Trevorrow was let go from Episode IX, if he refused to bother with this silly political messaging, as he did in Jurassic World. After seeing all of the hammy jokes in TLJ, does anyone still believe that Lord and Miller were let go for making the Han Solo movie too jokey and comedic? No, there is something else going on here. And now in contrast to Trevorrow's firing despite an enjoyable and successful social justice free Jurassic World which is now receiving an earned sequel, Rian Johnson gets awarded his very own trilogy after producing this turd burger before its box office track record can be established. There's an interesting story to be told here, but it's not in the Star Wars universe. It's in a documentary that interviews all of the dejected Disney-era Star Wars directors after their NDAs expire.

"Let the past die kill it if you have" to is an admission that they are evil considering it is said by Kylo Ren

It is the Writers speaking to the audience as much as to Rey.

And thats exactly what this movie is doing killing the once Majestic Star wars

Its now down to 50% User score on Rotten tomatoes will it achieve the ultimate dishonor and go below 50%? Time will tell.

You can dismiss that if you like but considering it 166 000+ people thats no longer something you can in all sensibleness dismiss.

Post by **Ketraar** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 18:58

Sorry, I'm not going to try and convince you to like a movie you dont like. But I stand by the statement that fans have (and should not have) any say in how any creative work is done BY OTHERS. You can criticise it and dislike it AFTER its done and then based on what the creation is and not what you would have done.

If you like to explain why you think the plot is a joke, I dont mind read it, but dont feed me stuff others write in an attempt to convince me. I watched and read many different people's take on the movie and many I understand (while not agreeing), but some are just ludicrous fanboyisms.

Skism wrote:Its now down to 50% User score on Rotten tomatoes will it achieve the ultimate dishonor and go below 50%? Time will tell.

Who cares, it could be 0 for all I care, it wont make it bad movie for me. That is not how opinions work.

MFG

Ketraar

Skism · Post by **Skism** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 20:52

Ketraar wrote:Sorry, I'm not going to try and convince you to like a movie you dont like. But I stand by the statement that fans have (and should not have) any say in how any creative work is done BY OTHERS. You can criticise it and dislike it AFTER its done and then based on what the creation is and not what you would have done.

If you like to explain why you think the plot is a joke, I dont mind read it, but dont feed me stuff others write in an attempt to convince me. I watched and read many different people's take on the movie and many I understand (while not agreeing), but some are just ludicrous fanboyisms.

Skism wrote:Its now down to 50% User score on Rotten tomatoes will it achieve the ultimate dishonor and go below 50%? Time will tell.
Who cares, it could be 0 for all I care, it wont make it bad movie for me. That is not how opinions work.

MFG

Ketraar

See this is called dismissing your market - and its a really bad idea that results in poor financials.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2017/12/19/st ... ce-awakens

It has also experienced 68.9% drop in its weekend to weekend box office, and a 77% drop in its Friday to Friday box office. This is below every single Star Wars film Audiences have spoken and they are not impressed.

Now why is that significant?

Well several reasons actually

https://www.morningstar.com/news/dow-jo ... -jedi.html

Before exhibitors can begin screening "Star Wars: The Last Jedi" this December, they must first commit to a set of top-secret terms that numerous theater owners say are the most onerous they've ever seen. Disney will receive about 65% of ticket-sales revenue from the film, a new benchmark for a Hollywood studio. Disney is also requiring theaters to show the movie in their largest auditorium for at least four weeks.

Ignoring the terms carries an unusual penalty. If a theater violates any condition of the distribution agreement, Disney can charge it an additional 5%, bringing the studio's total haul to 70% of sales on a movie likely to gross more than $500 million at the domestic box office.

Toward the end of a monthlong run, Mr. Akin said he would be unable to swap in more popular titles and instead have to play "Last Jedi" to near-empty auditoriums -- while still giving Disney 65% of those paltry sales. The studio is applying the 65% split across all weeks of the film's release, rather than some studios' practice of beginning a split at a high figure and then lowering it in subsequent weeks.

And this just in:

http://www.indiewire.com/2017/12/holida ... 201912175/

Thats Jumanji outperforming the Last Jedi

Star Wars for gods sake is being nearly beaten by something that is a total unknown.

Thats why you should care

Oh and also its just frankly a bad movie

Rice · Post by **Rice** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 21:31

Jumanji, wasnt that the Boardgame which makes the gameplot comes true or even Snatch peoples until the game has been continued? ;P

Skism · Post by **Skism** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 23:26

Rice wrote:Jumanji, wasnt that the Boardgame which makes the gameplot comes true or even Snatch peoples until the game has been continued? ;P

Yeah.

And thats nearly outperforming the Latest Star Wars

STAR WARS for Gods sake

only one of the most iconic series of the last 40 years.

Just goes to show the damage that the SJW (Social Justice Warrior for the uninitiated) can do

This is what happens when you submit to their narrative: among many things your market value tanks.

Post by **Ketraar** » Wed, 3. Jan 18, 23:29

Skism, you can throw all this stats at me all day, I... dont... care. I saw Blade Runner 2049 and it was one of the greatest movies in recent years, its fantastic. Its much better than any Star Wars movie by a large margin, but it made no/little money in the box office, so by your logic it must be a bad movie.

Seriously, Pirates made a gazillion cash, Triple X did, Transformers did, Furious crap did, does that make them good movies, heck no they all are garbage fast food crap. So yeah I could not care less what the "market" says. SW was a good movie and one of the better Star Wars movies.

MFG

Ketraar

Skism · Post by **Skism** » Thu, 4. Jan 18, 00:19

Ketraar wrote:Skism, you can throw all this stats at me all day, I... dont... care. I saw Blade Runner 2049 and it was one of the greatest movies in recent years, its fantastic. Its much better than any Star Wars movie by a large margin, but it made no/little money in the box office, so by your logic it must be a bad movie.

Seriously, Pirates made a gazillion cash, Triple X did, Transformers did, Furious crap did, does that make them good movies, heck no they all are garbage fast food crap. So yeah I could not care less what the "market" says. SW was a good movie and one of the better Star Wars movies.

MFG

Ketraar

Oh I get that you don't care, I get that you won't accept stats.

I get it and I am not surprised in the slightest.

You have offered no evidence though for it being a good movie, but continue to repeat that it is.

But I'm not surprised you are doubling down

But hey if Star Wars going down the tubes doesn’t bother you well what can I say?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Star Wars - The Last Jedi (may contain spoilers)