Trump

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Mightysword
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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 15. Feb 20, 22:31

Ketraar wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 18:49
No it wont. Because Bernie is a lifelong advocate of the people, all the people.
No, he is not. He said so himself. Unless your version of the word "all the people" exclude certain groups, or that people above certain level of income is not considered actual people. Like, don't even try to argue it, I listen to enough of Bernie speech and the words came out of the man himself. While all Democrat are understandably going for it at some level, Bernie is the most aggressive and also - in your word -most consistent in portraying "the rich is the source of all of problem". If class warfare ever openly break out, he ain't gonna be a mediator to bring "all the people" together, he would be one of the very first to pick a certain side without hesitation.

And no, I'm not debating if that is right or wrong itself, no interest in that. I'm simply pointing out your version of "all the people" are as cherry picking as Trump's version of "all the people" - because hey he said it too! In fact I'm a bit allergic to things like "all the people", not because they are wrong. But because:

- How overuse it is. In fact, name me one candidate, pass or present that doesn't say something similar.
- How the people utter those words never honestly meant it. Trump surely doesn't mean "all the people" when he said it, and neither Bernie. In fact, they probably each refer to the other group that is left out by each otherin their respective version of "all the people".
Well sorry but no. "the American people" has no clue, all it knows is what it is told and as I said before, you cant cop out with that since its a word in a established language and its meaning exists regardless of how you interpret it.
Maybe we don't. But at the same time I see no reason why you or anyone else can claim they have more clue then us, and guess why, neither I think most American care. Even if you are right, who has the right to say we are wrong? In fact, the flaw of your argument is once again, you focus too much on the privilege being right and being wrong rather take things in its own context. To me that's a dead horse that had been beaten to zombie state in this thread. You are free to think of it what you will, you can be right and American can be wrong, but in the end the one who can decide that is the American, period. And you can say the samething to me if I go to YOUR country and start telling you what I think about it. The reason I only quote this one line is because it's the only one I think remotely related to what I said. The rest of the paragraph ... while pose valid question, I'm not exactly sure if they carry a related point? :?

I said no matter what you think or want to call him - and I will refrain calling him a far left since that might not qualify per YOUR standard, but Bernie is the left most figure in American atm, and that fact alone means a lot. If you gonna issue a challenge to my argument, I would prefer to see one that directly address that notion.


And like I said, you are still -completely-missing-the-point. Just stop being so concern about right and wrong for a moment. Fine, let's just say you are right, that we American are dumb, we all should accept your wisdom of what better for us and voila happy tomorrow. You mention people are afraid of changes, of course there is that. But there is another factor when people talk about change that I think you often forget -given your history of posting- are people ready for change.

Consider this example: a patient is sick and need surgery. The surgeon and his team had identify the illness, and devise the procedure that will cure the patient. In this case just like I said, we gonna assume you are right in all what you said (so please don't beat on it again if you're gonna response to this post). But, even that, what is the ONE thing that every surgeon will have to consider before beginning any procedure, even if they are 101% confident is will cure the patient: Can the patient survive the procedure or not?

And that - is - my - point. Right now American is so bitterly divided in the same manner a patient who is too sick to receive a procedure. Maybe Bernie has the right idea, but right now if we try to push through it, there are so much bad will and resistance that I fear the result will be similar to how a procedure that would cure a patient would instead send him into a cardiac arrest in the middle of the operation in it. That's why I'm saying we need reconciliation first, we need to get out of the current obsessive, negative and toxic mindset before we can tackle changes in no different manner that an extremely sick patient's vitality must be prop up to a certain level first before an operation.

Do you understand what I am saying now. Again, I already said we can assume I gave you all the argument that you claim. But we're simply not even talking about the same thing at the moment.
Last edited by Mightysword on Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:36

@Mightysword: I agree with we need a President who will cool the raging fires of opposites that have reached explosive levels in this country.

Unfortunately, liberals are boiling angry with the policies and behavior of the current batch of Republicans and cooling down is not what they are after. Liberals are extremely angry and they want a candidate who is likewise angry. Bernie is their man. Liberal Democrats are no more interested in reason than are conservative Republicans.

However, the normal distribution bell-curve, puts most people in the middle. The extreme left and right, make a lot of noise and hold everyone's attention, but the vast majority do not identify with their loud in-your-face brethren.

The biggest fear I have, around this upcoming election, is that Bernie will become the Democrat nominee who adds fuel to the already flaming inferno of a country that we have become.

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:50

Observe wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:36
The biggest fear I have, around this upcoming election, is that Bernie will become the Democrat nominee who adds fuel to the already flaming inferno of a country that we have become.
Thank you, this is exactly what I am trying to say, and it's something to be more concern about even beyond the concept of who is right and who is wrong. For me anyway. And I'm not only afraid of the amount of fuel Bernie gonna add to this cycle, but also the next cycle there will be even more fuel added by conservative, rinse and repeat.


If I remember correctly, you had said before you are a proud liberal, you also had said Bernie is the candidate you have most confidence in and you will vote for him without hesitation. So my respect to you to still be able to say what you just said. I don't think anyone have to necessary change their belief, but having a belief should not deprive one the ability to think objectively. :thumb_up:
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Re: Trump

Post by Ketraar » Sun, 16. Feb 20, 02:10

So why was this not a concern in 2016? Because of emails? The reason we non US people care is that like it or not, the US has tendency to have an impact on the rest of world, even though we have no real say in it (not saying we should, just in case you twist these words too).

Bernie is the right person because you didnt want a bureaucrat centrist last time that had all the qualifications you now claim are crucial, why would you want one now? You use words like "class warfare" when talking about Bernie like it was not what got Trump elected in the first place, the only difference being that Bernie actually sticks to what he sais unlike Trump that went all conman on people selling them portions of the Moon just for 39.99 and people bought it like free ice cream and now are so far down the rabbit hole they'd rather go all the way instead of admitting they were coned. If Obama transferred funds from teh Pentagon to pay for a wall that Mexico was supposed to pay, he would be impeached on the spot and dragged out of the white house, but since its Trump, its the right move.

Gimme a break. Bernie may have flaws but they pale in comparison to Trumps lunacy, if the US can survive Trump it will flourish with pretty much anyone else, including Bernie (thats counting REAL people and yes I dont really care much for the super wealthy, their wealth is an aberration to capitalism, never mind common decency.)

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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Sun, 16. Feb 20, 18:37

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:50
Observe wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:36
The biggest fear I have, around this upcoming election, is that Bernie will become the Democrat nominee who adds fuel to the already flaming inferno of a country that we have become.
If I remember correctly, you had said before you are a proud liberal, you also had said Bernie is the candidate you have most confidence in and you will vote for him without hesitation. So my respect to you to still be able to say what you just said. I don't think anyone have to necessary change their belief, but having a belief should not deprive one the ability to think objectively. :thumb_up:
To my memory I don't recall ever having being a proponent of Bernie, but it is possible that you know me better than I know myself. :)

To be sure, I have always been on the liberal side of things in general, but not rabidly so. I am a progressive, when I see the need for progress and I am a conservative, when I see the need to put the brakes on liberalism gone mad.

If Sanders does win the election, right-wing Republicans will have only themselves to blame, because it is their actions that are feeding the fire of the left-wing. The automatic response to Trump, is a clarion call for socialism, such as we are witnessing.

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 16. Feb 20, 18:51

Observe wrote:
Sun, 16. Feb 20, 18:37
To my memory I don't recall ever having being a proponent of Bernie, but it is possible that you know me better than I know myself. :)
I was just making assumption based on a few post you made in the past. For example:
Observe wrote:
Tue, 24. Dec 19, 04:42
Being realistic, I tend to agree. Yang is very unlikely to be the nominee. Sanders has the experience and has more or less stayed on course for the entirety of his political life. I would vote for him without reservation.
If it's not correct, I'll happy to adjust my assumption.
----------------------------------------------------------
If Sanders does win the election, right-wing Republicans will have only themselves to blame, because it is their actions that are feeding the fire of the left-wing. The automatic response to Trump, is a clarion call for socialism, such as we are witnessing.
I don't disagree, just like liberal also needs to understand if Trump win again then the majority of the fault will be with them and no one else. Both parties can use some self-reflection for a long while now.
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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Sun, 16. Feb 20, 19:06

Thanks for reminding me of my previous statements re. Sanders. I certainly would vote for Sanders over Trump,
Mightysword wrote:
Sun, 16. Feb 20, 18:51
Observe wrote: If Sanders does win the election, right-wing Republicans will have only themselves to blame, because it is their actions that are feeding the fire of the left-wing. The automatic response to Trump, is a clarion call for socialism, such as we are witnessing.
I don't disagree, just like liberal also needs to understand if Trump win again then the majority of the fault will be with them and no one else. Both parties can use some self-reflection for a long while now.
Self-reflection is a rare commodity, because unfortunately, it's brother Blame, is much more demanding of attention in this current social and political maelstrom.

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Re: Trump

Post by Mightysword » Sun, 16. Feb 20, 19:34

Ketraar wrote:
Sun, 16. Feb 20, 02:10
So why was this not a concern in 2016?
If it pleases you I can go back and find my old posts to cite them that I actually have been sounding off the deterioration of politic, the break down of political norm and tradition since before Trump became the president, and advocating the need of objective thinking for the last 4 years. So yes, I have had concerns since 2016. Oh, and I don't think I ever talked about the "email", I don't think I even talked about Benghazi, just like how one might noticed I rarely participate in the gazillion "scandals" talk in the last 3 years.

But even if you're not talking about me, then I don't see it's an unreasonable for one only to start questioning now. You participated in this thread since the beginning, most people were already clear on where they stand from the start, yet discussion could go for pages and pages without anyone attacking anyone. These days, some of the very same posters from that time who are still here, sometime can't go for 2-3 posts in a row without some form of attacking in each others, why? Point is,while it wasn't great then, it's definitely not as bad as it is NOW. Sorta like you see a forest fire when it's still 20 miles away and think "that make for a pretty horizon", 10 miles closer and you start to worry "it won't reach here will it?", and then when you feel the heat in your face "holy shit we need to do something NOW". Plus, human tend to need to have at least a few data points before we can make out a trend.

I'm not quite understanding what the point you're trying to get at here by repeating asking that question. If you're doing just to rub it in or laugh at America's shortsightedness I won't stop you, and I'll be the first to admit the current situation is of our own making. But that won't change what need to be done NOW. It's kinda like a team is working to stop an on going crisis and there is one guy who constantly nag "why we let this happens, if we did this we could have prevent it ...etc..." At some point someone else probably gonna "how does any of that help with what we're trying to do right now at this moment?". Beyond maybe some form of psychology gratification, I see little point to it.
Gimme a break. Bernie may have flaws but they pale in comparison to Trumps lunacy, if the US can survive Trump it will flourish with pretty much anyone else, including Bernie
Except, that logic would only work if each new presidency enjoy a fresh state, and there is a magical reset button. You are right I doubt Bernie can push America as far to the edge as Trump does, but the point is: we are already close to the edge. Maybe Trump pushed us 50 feet toward the edge, and if Bernie comes in he will only push it for another 20 feet, the issue here is I feel we are already 10 feet from falling over. And even if it doesn't happen under Bernie, it will continue that momentum that eventually will push us over. A better model to apply here will be "a cloth that break the camel's back" or "one more drop in a glass too full". Trump or Bernie, both of them simply gonna add their own fuel to feed their base (may be different kind of fuel, but flammable regardless), but what we need is a fire fighter.

I think most people here are wondering (or pretend to wonder) why there isn't seem a lot of reasoning and rational thinking now in the US, and guess what, you are right. And the reason is I believe the political momentum right now is not being driven by ideology difference, but by a mutual distrust.

(thats counting REAL people and yes I dont really care much for the super wealthy, their wealth is an aberration to capitalism, never mind common decency.)
So why not say that from the beginning, why try to hide behind the pretend of "all the people" when you clearly don't mean it? :wink:

And it's because I know Bernie think exactly the same way you do that I believe he's NOT the president American need right now. He may (or may not) be a champion for the left - which I understand for someone with a "progress at any cost" mindset that would make him ideal. But he will definitely not be a figure for reconciliation, which is again what American desperately need right now. And that is my argument. The reason I didn't quote your middle paragraph because again it seems to dwell into the realm of right/wrong and whose fault was that. Does American Politic need reconciliation right now? If no then why not (and asking where was this concern 4 years ago isn't exactly an answer to that). If yes, then would someone like Bernie a good fit for that role? And obviously my argument is he's not.

Thank you, while the debate have gone back and forth with me trying to explain myself a few times, that quote of yours succinctly and eloquently serve as both an example and a justification why I think the way I do, for both the how and why question.
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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 17. Feb 20, 15:38

Remember the Soleimani assassination?

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_cache ... doc148.pdf

ie no imminent threat. The administration should have just said "he's a bad guy and we decided to take him out" rather than come out with all invented bullcrap.
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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 17. Feb 20, 16:42

Mightysword wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:50
Observe wrote:
Sat, 15. Feb 20, 23:36
The biggest fear I have, around this upcoming election, is that Bernie will become the Democrat nominee who adds fuel to the already flaming inferno of a country that we have become.
Thank you, this is exactly what I am trying to say, and it's something to be more concern about even beyond the concept of who is right and who is wrong. For me anyway. And I'm not only afraid of the amount of fuel Bernie gonna add to this cycle, but also the next cycle there will be even more fuel added by conservative, rinse and repeat.
So let me get this straight... your concern is that Sanders winning the nomination will just send the hillbilly folk into propaganda overdrive so we shouldn't vote for Sanders out of fear of what the Orange one and his followers will say? :gruebel:
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by Tycow » Mon, 17. Feb 20, 17:37

RegisterMe wrote:
Mon, 17. Feb 20, 15:38
Remember the Soleimani assassination?

https://foreignaffairs.house.gov/_cache ... doc148.pdf

ie no imminent threat. The administration should have just said "he's a bad guy and we decided to take him out" rather than come out with all invented bullcrap.
These are the same guys that said no US troops were injured in the retaliatory attacks, then that changed when Trump said he was aware that some troops suffered "headaches".

Turns out there were over 100 reported traumatic brain injuries:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-51453829

The ministry of misinformation is alive and well.

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Re: Trump

Post by Observe » Mon, 17. Feb 20, 19:52

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Feb 20, 16:42
So let me get this straight... your concern is that Sanders winning the nomination will just send the hillbilly folk into propaganda overdrive so we shouldn't vote for Sanders out of fear of what the Orange one and his followers will say?
I want progress. I do not want a Utopian revolution from either the left or the right. Sanders is unlikely to unite this severely divided country any more than Trump has. Would I prefer Bernie's vision over Trump's. Absolutely unequivocally I would vote for Sanders over Trump any day of the week. Preferably though, we would have a leader who represents the moderate majority, but I don't see that happening because such a person would not appeal to the raging anger that is tearing apart the fabric of American society.

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Mon, 17. Feb 20, 20:42

Observe wrote:
Mon, 17. Feb 20, 19:52
Vertigo 7 wrote:
Mon, 17. Feb 20, 16:42
So let me get this straight... your concern is that Sanders winning the nomination will just send the hillbilly folk into propaganda overdrive so we shouldn't vote for Sanders out of fear of what the Orange one and his followers will say?
I want progress. I do not want a Utopian revolution from either the left or the right. Sanders is unlikely to unite this severely divided country any more than Trump has. Would I prefer Bernie's vision over Trump's. Absolutely unequivocally I would vote for Sanders over Trump any day of the week. Preferably though, we would have a leader who represents the moderate majority, but I don't see that happening because such a person would not appeal to the raging anger that is tearing apart the fabric of our society.
I don't see how working towards ensuring the planet can continue to sustain human life and making sure American citizens have access to healthcare would enrage anyone other than the typical Faux News <insert anti democrat propaganda> fear mongering. It doesn't matter who the democrat nominee is, they'll still run their propaganda machine and enrage the whackydoos. They are an entertainment company, after all.

I also don't see how that's going to spawn a "utopian revolution" either. It's not like the RWNJs are going to disappear, as awesome as that would be. Greed will still exist, there will still be an underclass, and pro-white loons will still wave their confederate flags and blame all of their problems on blacks, Jews, Hispanics, Muslims and whoever else they choose to demonize.
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by Vertigo 7 » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 13:48

Oh look... Space Cadet Bone Spurs is freeing his fellow con artists from jail

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/wh ... r-BB108NVP
"If we had confidence the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. We did not, however, make a determination as to whether the president did commit a crime." - Robert Muller, May 29, 2019

"Complete and total exoneration" - Donald Trump, March 24, 2019

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Re: Trump

Post by RegisterMe » Wed, 19. Feb 20, 15:02

Vertigo 7 wrote:
Wed, 19. Feb 20, 13:48
Oh look... Space Cadet Bone Spurs is freeing his fellow con artists from jail

https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/world/wh ... r-BB108NVP
How you getting on with that swamp of yours?

:(

EDIT: And I've just seen Trump stating that he's the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the Country. How's that for separation of powers?
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